ifoco, what a great post. I couldn't agree with you more. I just wish I knew that the cheap Whirlpool models would hold up and clean well. I don't need a third rack or interior lights or a water softener. For that I would get a Bosch that uses cotton rope to hold the door. What classic engineering. I don't want stainless steel either. Just a plain appliance that works. I dread the day when our old warhorses die.

Just saw on CR.org that Wpool and Bosch were the most trouble free and a Wpool was recommended also with a less than $500 price--but a high price KitchenAid was #1 but also had more service calls than Wpool.

aparky823, which model Wpool please?

^^^^ the most expensive one !

12 crumbles: Here is the # WDT720PADM $460. Whirlpool. Hope this helps.

Good one xedos - one might logically think that would be the case, but CR and logic have just about nothing to do with each other.

They like to rate the cheapo units above the higher end ones in a particular brand's line. For example, last I saw, the Ascenta got a BETTER score than the higher end Bosch machines they tested. I get that they may consider the Ascenta a better value or whatever, but price isn't supposed to factor into the numerical ratings. They are claiming that lower end dishwashers do a better job than the higher end, which is insane. It's one of many reasons I don't take their "findings" seriously.

I have never understood how they rate a Kenmore higher than a Wpool when they will be exact looking models and the pumps and all are exact but the KM outwashes the Wpool.

It's also insane considering those bosch DW are almost identical internally. I know they use the same pump and heater.

I also dislike that they don't test in real world situations. Quiet in a lab isn't the same as quiet in my house or yours. And what exactly do they use for dirty dishes?

I looked a long time to find a DW made today with a Quick Rinse like the 14-year-old GE I was replacing. The old one still worked fine, but the interior was deteriorating. I wanted to get the switch made while I was at our condo. II didn't want it failing while a guest was there (Maui vacation rental).

The ONLY DW I could find was another GE. It has a 5-minute rinse -- something I use all the time. In the tropics, you can't let dishes 'sit' until you run the DW after dinner. It rinses. It cleans. It was about $400 plus installation. You know...it's a *dishwasher*, not an engineering marvel. Also, there are GE parts *on island*.

At home near Chicago I have a pair of stacked dishdrawers from Fisher & Paykel. They're 14 too. They rinse. They clean. They use minimal detergent and water. It's convenient for two adults to be able to use only the top drawer once a day. (These are not for people with oversize plates.)

xedos - personally, I don't need, want or even like SS. So the extra price for that cold, pug-ugly (to me), impersonal, industrial-looking feature is out of my consideration. I'm interested in functional. I think I should continue to check with CR.

I can't imagine spending over 1K on a dishwasher - there are so many other thing I would rather spend money on in a kitchen. We recently got the Bosch 500 series DW and love it. The 3rd rack certainly isn't necessary but we actually really like it for silverware. It's very quiet. It doesn't do a great job at things that are really dried on (i.e. some of the stuff that was sitting outside from our outdoor kitchen during the reno) but otherwise things come out very shiny.

Artemis- $1000 + DWs are available in white, black and paneled versions as well as forms of the new hot hue: bronze/ copper/ brown. No need to have stainless if you don't want it.

I looked a long time to find a DW made today with a Quick Rinse like the 14-year-old GE I was replacing.

It shouldn't be that hard to find. GE may be the only one that calls theirs "Quick Rinse" but that's just a marketing term. I bought a non-GE dishwasher last year with a "Rinse and Hold" cycle which is exactly the same thing, and the more common name for it.

As someone who lived in Hawaii for many years, I can totally understand about not leaving dirty dishes sitting around. And those B-52s... YUCK, I still got them even though I kept my house very clean. However, in my experience the Rinse/Hold cycle didn't work as I hoped it would. Sure, it got the gunk of the dishes, but since it only did one rinse, some of that gookus would remain in the standing water at the bottom which led to a nasty smell the next day. I ended up just hand washing dishes unless I had enough company to fill the DW.

It was about $400 plus installation. You know...it's a *dishwasher*, not an engineering marvel. Also, there are GE parts *on island*.

It may not be an engineering marvel, but there are significant quality differences and today's dishwashers are not at all like the ones for sale 14 years ago. I completely understand that you didn't want to spend much, especially for a rental unit (I wouldn't either). You shouldn't try to justify that, though, by pretending that a $400 dishwasher will be as well made as a $700 one. It just won't. Also, just because a different brand is better made doesn't mean it has to be exotic... I would be very surprised if there were no Bosch parts on island.

If the target is $1000 or less (which was my exact requirements), after about 22 months of ownership, I would say the most basic Miele (in black for $899) is a great value. I have a few long posts on it, including a long-winded one on the install, as there are some oddities about the Miele in the US market.

It's quiet, cleans great, plate rack is well thought out for Corelle-like plates, utensil basket has great dividers, workmanship is top notch. Condensing dryer function works really well on ceramics and glassware and steel utensils and reasonably OK on plastic. Best appliance in my kitchen with no regrets on the purchase. I actually feel fortunate that my GE Profile croaked, I didn't realize how bad it washed and how poor plates/utensils fit in it.

hvtech42 -- Perhaps because I was looking lower-end, but I found no units with a FIVE MINUTE rinse. I did find Rinse & Hold features, but they all ran at least 20 minutes. These 'green' water-saving rules are driving us all crazy!

Perhaps my replacement won't go 14 years like the last GE, but I can probably replace it twice for little more than if I'd paid over $1K. (And you know how the tropical climate tends to just *eat* appliances.)

" sjhockeyfan325

Both Bosch and Miele have great dishwashers available for under $1,000. Check them out on aj madision. We have a Bosch (didn't want to spend the extra it would have cost for a panel-ready hidden controls Miele) and it cleans everything and very well (better than any other dishwasher I've ever owned). "

It is impossible to get new Miele in Canada for $899 (((( here they start at $1399 but the Bosch dishwashers start here at $600

The consensus at this site is Bosch or Miele. I am opting for a Maytag that does what I want, grinds food particles, has a heater and costs about $600 discounted. It is not stainless steel but my kitchen is bisque so what's the difference between white and stainless? Actually, I can have the white front painted bisque. Recent reviews at sellers have been pretty decent too.

nerdyshopper - I think that is a very reasonable choice! Again with the I'd just assume spend more money on almost anything else in the kitchen. Folks here do like their brand names, and they aren't always better. I got a Whirlpool oven because it had the top CR ratings and was the cheapest wall oven available with convection.

Folks here do like their brand names, and they aren't always better.

I don't know of ANY regular posters here who are hung up on brand name. I'm relatively new here, but I could tell from the outset that the people who have been posting for years really know their stuff. That could be for a variety of reasons. Maybe they work in the industry and have insider information. Maybe they have gone through several remodels, learned a lot in the process, and want to share that knowledge. Or, maybe they just want the very best they can get for their money, are willing to put in the work to find it, and have figured out why Consumer Reports is not a good place to look for that information (some discussion on this upthread).

I also don't know of anybody here that insists that everyone needs high end appliances, or needs to spend a lot on appliances. No matter what your budget is, someone will have a recommendation for you. In fact, there are plenty of posts criticizing prestigious brands like Wolf and Viking, along with posts suggesting less expensive brands which can give you a lot more value for your money. However, if there are significant quality and/or performance differences between brands or appliances at different price points, people will be frank about them, even if it's not what you want to hear.

I have to back hvtech here. Your comment about being "hung up" on brand names is misguided. The guidance I and many others offer on this board has almost always been based on real world experience. When I recommend a Bosch or a Miele it isn't because of the brand name, it's because me and my sales staff here have sold THOUSANDS of these items, and others. The responses we get from our customers and our real world experience are why we recommend the products we do.

If we were hung up on brand name, Viking would be a major recommendation on this site...and yet, you will RARELY find any recommendation of their product. There is real experience guiding that information that we share.

CR is notoriously inconsistent in their ratings. And many times, the real world doesn't support their data. In addition, their reliability ratings are almost worthless as our MANY customers can attest.

I have to also agree with Joe and hvtech. Just last week I posted how I'm looking for a basic oven as opposed to one of the "name" brands and got some excellent suggestions of what to look at. None of which were the "names" unless you consider Frigidaire a brand name. However in some cases the difference between a regular brand and a "name" brand is really night and day for less cost difference than believed.

nerdy and harpie- will you be satisfied if you units last ten years?

What if they need service in the ten years - will you still be happy ?

Do you think you you'll repair them if say one needs a $150 part plus labor ?

I'm not knocking your choices, just curious about your expectations of quality at that price point.

I don't know any brand that will last 10 years for sure. I do know that Maytag has a problem with control board failures in the past. I plan to use a surge protector on the line to prevent that source of problem. Of course, electronic controls inside a cabinet with wet soapy water is asking for trouble if the manufacture does not design a waterproof system. I get my local service from a small company that has repaired my stuff honestly. The cost has been fair so far.

I have , as well as many clients have miele, sub zero and gaggenau units going on twenty plus years without issues.

But , your mileage may vary. One of those same clients has no trouble with gaggenau , sz, but has driven her two Miele DWs into the ground , by being hard on them .

xedos

"Artemis- $1000 + DWs are available in white, black and paneled versions as well as forms of the new hot hue: bronze/ copper/ brown. No need to have stainless if you don't want it."

Well, paying a grand for a DW is totally off my board, and budget. If it comes down to that, my hands have been functional at dishwashing for fifty+ years more or less.

Personally, I hope the gods grace me with another 25 years of usefulness.

ma - how many would say the same thing about the $600 you're going to spend on a Bosch ?

I'm sorry - I didn't mean to insult. I agree most people here have great advice to share and are more interested in function than name (or are transparent if they aren't!). I don't fully trust CR for reliability or to find the absolute best product but did find their reviews of oven temperature and evenness quite helpful (and was wary of purchasing an oven that they found to be very uneven).

I have no idea how long my appliances are going to last - I would honestly have more faith in a bargain basement gas range from HD that is mostly mechanical than the Miele induction cooktop I bought! Everything has so much electronics nowadays that I have much less faith in things lasting 20 years. I'd be happy to pay more if I knew it would be guaranteed to last longer, but for many products I think this is a big risk. For the most part I'd rather pay something affordable now, and if I have to pay for a repair or new unit in 10 years that's okay, unless I'm really getting a lot more function now.

Don't think you insulted anyone, just offering a different perspective.

You can buy a dishwasher for five or six hundred dollars that will probably work fine. Even less if needed. You don't necessary need to buy a Bosch or a Miele. I have a GE profile dishwasher (not even top of that line) that is fifteen years old that I probably run once a week and it works fine.

I don't know why people get so angry on here...maybe they're south pole elves or someone sucked the jelly out their donut this morning, who knows. In any event, hammerslammer have you checked Sears? I currently have a Kenmore Elite, it was under $1000 and works great. One thing I've noticed though, is that it works better with brand-name dishwashing detergent--nothing too fancy, just Cascade Complete. Also, when your D/W shopping, remember to keep the noise level in mind.

Dreamhouseforsomeday, we went ahead and purchased a Bosch 500 series dishwasher. We got it on sale for just over $800. We haven't really "tested" it yet, but so far so good.

I never imagined I would start such a debate with this thread. But hey, if it's destined to become a food fight, I'm glad the topic is DISHWASHERS. ;)

Good choice!

toriat - that is not sound advice. The average consumer uses their dishwasher 5-7 times per week. Your use of a GE Profile once a week does not indicate reliability for 90% of people with dishwashers. Noone is saying you HAVE to purchase an expensive machine or a bosch or a miele to get a good machine. But those brands offer some of the best machines out there and have been doing so for years.

For those posting about the bulletproof Miele dishwashers, I suggest they read the old thread currently active titled: "Might replace 5 yr old Miele dishwasher :( -need advice"

Folks , a perfect dishwasher doesn't exist !

Even with miele someone gets a lemon, or one that doesn't work at their home , or they just don't like it or whatever .

People around here that gush over miele DWs do so because they work, they have few problems, and they last. They are a safe bet.

You'll notice I said few and bet there. Some people will still roll craps and get a turkey. But overall they are a safe play. Want a risky play ? Get something else. Now , some have more risk than others : Hotpoint high, Bosch low.

But buying a miele is no guarantee that YOU will won't have any problems or be happy for twenty years. The music stops and someone is always left without a chair. That game we all remember wasn't simply for passing time at birthday party or team building exercise - it was meant to impart a valuable lesson.

I didn't read all the posts, but I'm finding it funny.

We moved to our house 3 years ago. Plan to do a kitchen remodel in the next year. Meantime the appliances are old. The owner left the papers and I started looking through them. All are Whirlpool, dishwasher, fridge and range.

I hate the fridge because its too small but it has an ice maker that works perfectly (we are in Florida and with the heat this summer, ice is used constantly). It keeps all our food fresh, no problems only its ugly and small.

The range is electric and I really hate it. Its a smooth top but I find the heat is uneven. However, the self clean works great, the oven works well, but again its ugly.

Dishwasher is also ugly. But, boy does it clean. It cleans, drys the dishes better than my expensive dishwasher we had in our house in NY which we sold.

Before we moved to Florida, we rented a townhouse in NY for 2 years because my husband hadn't retired yet. We had a Miele dishwasher. It was terrible. It was quiet, but the dishes were never clean, had to deal with the salt issue and it didn't dry anything. Glasses were always water spotted. In the 2 years we lived there we had to have it repaired twice.

So, now we live with these old appliances which are over 10 years. The papers show the original owner paid $300.00 for the dishwasher. If I could find it in stainless I'd buy another one tomorrow. I've never had Whirlpool (Sears), but I am impressed that they still work well and do the job they need to do. Furthermore they were cheap by today's prices. BTW, we run the dishwasher every night.

Jane

You probably have a Whirlpool PowerClean dishwasher. They were excellent but are no longer being made. The Whirlpools now are nowhere near as good.

Whether you have to use salt or not has nothing to do with the dishwasher you're using, it's all about your water hardness. Higher end dishwashers have built-in softeners for convenience only. If you are using a dishwasher with a softener in an area with soft water, no need to add salt, you can just turn the softener off. Conversely, if you use a dishwasher without a softener in an area with very hard water, if you want good results you will still be adding salt, just to an external softener instead of the dishwasher itself.

Were you using rinse aid in that Miele? And how many detergents did you try? Did you clean the filter regularly? Modern dishwashers work differently than older ones. They rely less on water pressure and more on water temperature combined with the properties of detergent. They forego built-in grinders for manual cleanable filters. They can give you just as good results, but require different use and care habits.

Regards to Miele, there's also this.

Miele W4840 drum off-axis

I wish I didn't have to replace my old appliances, especially after reading this thread. I have a 33 yr old Whirlpool refrigerator in my basement that is finally dying. No chance that I'll get a new one to last that long. It started out as my kitchen refrigerator, but when the old basement refrigerator died, we moved the Whirlpool to the basement and bought a new Maytag for the kitchen. That was 13 yrs ago, and now both refrigerators seem to be gasping out their last breath at the same time. The whirlpool dishwasher (at least 15 yrs old) is still working fine, although its not as quiet as newer models. I can't decide if I should just replace the dying appliances, or replace them all. I am leaning towards just replacing the dead ones, since it sounds like my old ones are built to last more so than newer appliances.

It depends on what's the problem and the overall condition, but don't give up on that 33-years-old refrigerator without investigating the possibility of repair. My grandmother (rest her soul) had a Whirlpool bought in April 1984. No repairs on it until the compressor start relay went bad in December 2010. I found the part at an online source for $33.98. It was still running and transferred along when the house was sold in May 2014.

Your chances of having a long lasting fridge when you buy today are increased exponentially if you buy simple. That doesn't mean spending more money. I would expect a basic mechanically controlled Whirlpool top mount bought today to last 20+ years.

33 years is impressive, but I would definitely not repair! Newer ones are so much more efficient and should save you a bunch on electricity.

bosch for 800 -1100$ (watch for sales)is what i'd reco

I was the original author of this thread. I ended up buying the Bosch 500 series SHP65T55UC from Best Buy at a cost of just over $950 including the extended warranty and sales tax. I bought this dishwasher after reading hundreds of reviews from various sources. Simply stated, it appeared to be the best choice for the price.

I've used this product for about a month now. For me, the pros and cons are as follows:

Pros:
Name brand with a reputable history
Stainless steel interior
Available in multiple colors and door styles
The third rack is a helpful feature that I would now miss if I didn't have it.

Cons:
It will only "clean" dishes that require a moderate wash and rinse. (In other words, a frying pan with scrambled eggs stuck to it when going in the dishwasher, still tends to have eggs stuck to it coming out of the dishwasher.)
There is no heating element, so don't expect a load of completely "dry" dishes, either.
If you think you might need an item again soon, you might be better off washing it by hand, since this dishwasher may need 2+ hours to complete a load.
The noise level varies with the volume and placement of the load. It is not always whisper quiet.

To sum up, I do not feel that this dishwasher is worth what I paid for it. I'm convinced that I could have purchased a similar level of quality--perhaps even better--for several hundred dollars less. I've attempted to follow the manufacturer's recommendations regarding both installation and operation. Yet, the performance of this product is disappointing. I'm at a loss to explain the overwhelming consensus of positive reviews that this product has received. Perhaps others have identified virtues that I've yet to perceive. I can only say that I regret this purchase and do not recommend this dishwasher to others.

If you are getting poor results, we need more information. What is your water hardness? What detergent are you using? What cycles are you selecting?

Your dishwasher DOES have a heating element. It's just not visible.

The Bosch does not have heated dry, drying works by condensation, which is how almost all work nowadays. I have no problem with this as I wash the dishes after dinner, but don't unload until the next day.

Almost all current dishwashers will take 2+ hours to run a full cycle.

Which leads me to the fact that your dishwasher isn't cleaning well. This could be a function of a lot of things (water and detergent mostly) but the dishwasher isn't likely one of them.

Hammer -- Since with all the other expenses, I'm going to take my chances on a DW that doesn't set me back nearly a grand as I jump out the starting gate.

It will be hard to break me of the 30-year habit of rinsing cookware and dishes down before I put them in the DW to begin with. So I am budgeting about $600ish for my device -- and I think Bosch has some DWs in that range. Especially since I won't need SS appliances.

sjhockey: current ones take 2 hours to run??? I thought the Whirlpool that just died here was running long at 50 minutes. But never mind - when I buy for my current build, I'll be retired and patient. (But WHAT are them things doin' in thar, I might ask??)

Motors are smaller (less electric power used), spray pressure is lower (more time need to wash, more reliance on detergent chemical action, quieter).

Ditto what dadoes said plus wash temps are MUCH lower. Most "Normal" cycle wash temps are now in the 104-106 degree range .... yuck!

I didn't mention water temps being lower but that is the case on the so-called Normal and Light/Short cycles. Designs that use condensation drying typically heat the final rinse to assist with drying. There are cycles that heat to higher temps, high-temp wash options that can be added to cycles that are normally lower, and sani/high-heat rinse options ... but then the running time is even longer so consumers typically avoid those cycles and options ... and then complain about insufficient cleaning and drying performance ... so it's a vicious circle. :-)