Do you plan to use drip irrigation or soaker hoses? If not then there isn't really an issue with using your water as is.

Rodney

I have drip system.

Your best source of info might be over on the Greenhouses forum here are they have the most experience with the specialized equipment needed for the circumstances in the GH.

Personally, like Rodney, I'm not sure why you see the well water to be a problem unless you are using some sort of water delivery system specific to a GH environment - misting, small line drip irrigation, etc.

I use drip irrigating in the GH and the gardens with my well water with no problems but I use large bore systems.

Dave

Wow, 834 ppm is REALLY hard water. USGS classifies "very hard water" as >180 ppm. But it sounds like you tested your measurement device. I would agree with Dave that hard water is not necessarily problematic for plant growth. You might want to check that water pH, and make sure it isn't strongly acidic or alkaline. Also make sure that it isn't very salty. Are you at a coastal site, such that your well is getting salt water intrusion? Slightly saline water would give you ~1000 ppm readings. But yes, if not salt then, as Rodney says, mineral deposits from water are likely to be an issue mainly for drip or soaker hose systems.

It is almost certainly strongly alkaline, my guess is pH in the 9. Not everything suffers with hard water though.

I am not some of you realize just how hard my water is. 180 ppm is considered Very Hard water. My water is 4 times harder then Very Hard water. I am using a buried drip tape system using Toro Aqua-Traxx drip tape. Here are some pictures.

After 8 years of gardening in this location with minimal success, my experience has been that although my plants can survive and produce a little on my outrageously hard, hard water; they do not thrive and do great. I want great, not just acceptable.

I am not sure what my current well is high in. I need to get the water tested. Can I do that through the county extension?

Don't know about the county extension but they can direct you to a place. So how do you filter the house water? If you use a water softener system of some type then a similar system would work for the GH.

Granted your water is extremely hard and granted the minerals that are causing the problem must be identified, but as a GH operator I think your primary issue for your plants is the way you have your watering system set-up in the pics above. How do you plant? Just set containers on top of all that chipped mulch? There is no way you can just pull all that tape and mulch aside to plant?

It is a very unusual set-up. Not only all the sharp bends in your drip tape - Traxx and all drip tape manufacturers strongly advises against that as they are bound to kink and distribute water unevenly. But why water the ground below the plants rather than the plants themselves? Water moves down 10 times more efficiently as it moves up. And why all the wood chip mulch on top of the tape? Not only is it going to bind up any N in your water it is going to absorb all of the water that can, by osmosis, rise.

So why this set-up? Especially since it has proven not to work for you.

Dave

If the house water is filtered with a standard water softener, you might be careful about using that water for plants. That technology adds salt (sodium chloride) to water, which causes calcium and magnesium to precipitate out. But it adds salt. Sodium salt doesn't produce scale on pipes and fixtures and doesn't interfere much with lathering, as do calcium and magnesium salts, but it isn't good for plants. I don't know much about it, but there are writeups that tell people not to use such "softened" water on plants. Large amounts of sodium are toxic to plants. Now maybe people with experience with using salt-softened water for gardening should jump in here.

I believe you can remove calcium and magnesium from water with potassium chloride, but that's a lot more expensive. Then there is reverse osmosis, which removes everything, but is expensive hardware.

Dave. I realize that you have never heard of the No Till (or, Back to Eden) gardening system, so what you see confuses you. There are many videos on youtube that can explain the system to you in more detail, but the general idea is that, nature never tills and still does a great job of growing things. Watch the videos though and you will understand what I am doing.

To answer your question about the buried drip tape, spraying my hard water directly on the plants will kill them. I have a low producing well and flood irrigation is not an option (running water down rows). On my first gardening attempts I used a sprinkler. Over time, my plants and the ground turned white and the plants died. For this reason I have placed the drip tape beneath the mulch. And no, it is not difficult to move the mulch and tape out of the way. It is all loose and can be moved aside with a sweep of the hand. All plants are started in 4" pots and grown to 10 inches tall before being planted in the ground. The mulch is moved aside and a hole dug in between the tape and the plant is planted in the soil. Then mulch is then gather back around the base of the plant. It is a natural weed and moisture barrier that prevents weeds from growing and precious water from evaporating in the heat of the sun.

The way I have this system implemented, I have a 99% efficiency on water use which is very important to me since I have very little water. The Traxx drip tape is a tape and not a hose. It can be shapes any way you want.

My system of gardening is not failing. It is working great. I am only trying to improve production, and work out some other problems.

Well my questions had nothing to do with tilling or not. Especially not within a greenhouse environment where tilling seldom plays a role. And yes, I am aware of the Back to Eden gardening methods and have incorporated some of them in my outside raised beds.

Perhaps your photos posted above to not properly convey your methods but they sure don't appear to have much in common with the Back to Eden methods portrayed in all of Gautschi's postings. All the drip tape (which unlike hose will kink when pressurized) - which I am also well versed in using - that is intensively over-applied and all the raw, uncomposted wood chips in the photos are not advocated by Gautschi. He who stresses the need for using only well composted wood chips unlike those in your photos and minimal watering only when the compost below the mulch is dry.

Your comment - "After 8 years of gardening in this location with minimal success, my experience has been that although my plants can survive and produce a little on my outrageously hard, hard water; they do not thrive and do great. I want great, not just acceptable." Indicated your system was failing, not working great. Thus my comments above.

Good luck.

Dave

Dave. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am not sure why, but I am feeling some hostility from you. Maybe I am wrong, and if so I apologize.

It seems people have a very hard time staying on track on this forum. I have many, many other post about my GH and my gardening system on this forum. This post was specifically about a system to treat hard water, and as such, I did not go into an in depth detailed history about my gardening system. But, for clarification, I will explain.

I only built my GH and started this system in April of this year; so it is a new approach, that for the most part is producing the best results I have seen on this land, but is a long ways from what my goal is.

As far as compost goes; I have done a lot of research on wood chips and there is some disagreement about whether they are good or not, but the fact is, they are what I have. There are hundreds of No Till and Back to Eden videos on youtube and just like most things, very few of them agree on the specifics. But the General idea of the system is to mimic nature. If you go walking through a forest, you will find fresh leaves, branches and dead tress on top and as you dig deeper you go through various degrees of composting. Nature does not compost everything before it applies it to the ground.

In preparation for this system, I tilled in several hundred pounds of 3 year old composted wood chips into the top 6 inches of the soil. The fresher stuff was added to the top as a weed and moisture barrier, and with time they will compost from the bottom up, just like it occurs in nature. In nature, it does not rain water that has a hardness of 824 ppm either, so thus my question about ways to filter my water.

One of the things about of these No Till videos, is the people all live up in States like Washington. They most certainly do not live withing 500 miles of me. So these systems are great in theory, but I live in a blazing hot, wind driven desert with little rain fall and where even cactus and the mesquite trees can barley survive and mostly die. These people have no clue what difficulty in growing vegetables is!

I spent all morning down at the county extension office talking with the director, trying to find one other person in my county that grows vegetables. THERE ARE NONE. The director actually referred to me as a "Pioneer" in this area and said that if I could actually do it, the county would like me to volunteer to teach others how to do it to. I Am Not Joking!

It remains to be seen if there is anything I can do to produce food from a garden here with any degree of reliability in my region. These people that live in wonderfully wet and fertile places like Washington are blessed beyond measure and think that their success is linked to their system. In truth, most of their success is linked to where they live.

When I was young, I lived in Veracruz, Mexico; the Land of the Living Fences. That climate and land was so fertile that you could cut a branch and stick it into the ground and it would grow into a tree. The farmers would build a fence by sticking branches in the ground close to one another and after a few year they would have a fences made completely of living trees. I remember buying vegetables at the local farmers market. Cabbages that weighed 20 pounds, carrots that weighed 5 pounds, radishes that were 4 feet long, etc, etc, etc. All from primitive mountain farmers that worked the ground with a hoe. All you had to do there to plant a garden there was throw seeds on the ground.

My point here is that, just because something works for one person in a given environment, does not mean that it will work for me. Try not to be so judgmental about what I am doing here until you understand the reality of the challenges I am facing, and please do no assume that just because I may doing things not exactly the way you would, that they are wrong. I am not saying I am right; only time will tell that.

May I ask where you live (even roughly)? With grotesquely hard groundwater and no one around growing vegetables, that sounds unique. A blazing hot, wind-driven desert where little rain falls? That's not quite what I see in your pictures. Look kinda green. But it sounds like you've worked hard, and you may offer some really important lessons to GW participants here.

I live in Jones county Texas, but my exact location is 12 miles southwest of Anson, TX. I live sort of a micro climate. Yes, there is some green here now, but don't let that fool you. This is an once in a century year, with way above average rainfall, but even so, my 2 acres of pinto beans died in the field without ever producing a single bean. My average annual rainfall is less then 10 inches. But, most people around me get 20 inches or more a year.

If you want to know the general weather of a place, just look at the natural landscape. If you see big healthy water loving plants, then you know that that area get a lot of rain on average. If you see only small scraggly drought tolerant plants, the you know that that area get little rainfall on average. 10 miles north of me, there are Oak forest. 12 miles east of me there are oak forest and even large pine trees. 14 miles south of me there are oak forest and many creeks and stream beds. But where I am, there is nothing but small scraggly half dead mesquites and cactus that is barely surviving. Actually, most of the cactus died off in 2011 when we had no rain for 9 months and triple digit temperature for 110 days consecutively. I measured less then 5 inches of rain that year.

I live on sort of a bluff of a wide valley. I can see over 30 miles to mile south. Because of this I get strong south winds. 70 mph sustained winds are not uncommon and I have measured wind gust of up to 90 mph. I have 8x10 foot outbuildings blown away. I now anchor everything down with mobile home anchors. I have had my entire garden stripped of leaves in a single storm.

Top soil here is about 6 inches on average and then you hit rock solid cliche. It rains little, and after drilling three wells, my best one is a little better then 1 gpm. There other two were dry holes. This well is all the water I have for my house and my garden and my 48 tree orchard.

Not everyone in Jones county has the same conditions as I do. A mile south of me there is a valley with water wells that produce 300 gpm. When I got on this land in 2007, there was no natural wild life, except for cactus rats. They can survive because they cactus. In 8 years, wild pigs have only crossed my land twice. I have done many things to improve the wild life habitat including a small watering hole. I now have a rabbits and a few deer and a small covey of quail.

OK, that makes things a little clearer. I'm somewhat familiar with the water in Abilene, not far from you, which I understand has water that is hard in calcium and magnesium, though not as hard as yours. (I find it kind of funny that the town of Sweetwater isn't far from you!) Major problems in Abilene with pipe corrosion, especially copper.

If calcium and magnesium are the culprits, it's not obvious to me why that water is bad for plants, UNLESS it is also pretty alkaline. Your soil is probably already loaded with calcium and magnesium. It may, however, clog up your plumbing. You should get some advice from the Traxx manufacturers about using their tape with very hard (Ca/Mg) water. If the water has a pH of greater than 8.5 or so, that may itself hinder plant growth irrespective of dissolved mineral ions. You need to get it pH tested. In fact, to the extent you have a long history of less-than-satisfactory growth from your beds, you really should get the soil tested as well. There may be other surprises. I'd have to assume that the pH of the soil will be similar to that of the water you use. If you have heavily alkaline soil, I'd be looking for serious deficiencies in manganese, boron (beets!) and copper.

Acidification of water isn't easy, involving injection of acids into the water supply. But maybe you'll have no choice.

My guess is that what you're looking at isn't really water softening, but something else.

I picked up water and soil test kits from the county extension office today. I had a soil test done last month, but my son took the samples and did not do right. I have a 20X40 foot greenhouse that is divided into eight 10X9 sections. Today I took a 6 inch sample core from the middle of each section and mixed them all together, per the instructions on the test kit. From the mix I will send in two pints to be tested. I am having a routine test, plus a mircronutrient, plus a texture test done. This should give all the information I need about the soil. I am also sending in a water sample to be tested. I already know my water is not good, but I just want to know what I am dealing with in technical terms.

I am looking at a couple systems in the $300 dollar range. I was hoping that I would find some people on here that are using these or similar system, but it appears that is not going to happen. Here are the two systems I am looking at.

1. HydroGardener TMA-HG Advanced Remineralizing Garden and Hydroponic Reverse Osmosis Water Filtration System.

2. Hydro-Logic Stealth RO200 Reverse Osmosis Filter

Well, again, I was asking why you think water softening is necessary. Not at all clear to me that a lot of Ca and Mg in your water is bad for plants. (That would be a great question for your county extension office.) Are you worried about mineral deposits clogging your Traxx system? It may be that water acidification is what you need, and reverse osmosis systems may or may not do that. I'm just suggesting that you be sure you know what your real problem is before you try to fix it.

No hostility was ever intended and the suggestion on the GH forum was because I know for a fact that the issues have been discussed there several times in the past. But the focus is always on the water delivery system, not the water itself.

Like the others here I don't see why the water is a problem even at such high concentrations. But it can be a very real problem for the delivery system. And the smaller the diameter of the holes, the faster and greater the problem. Drip tape will often fail within 1/2 a season.

Which is why one of the common recommendations in the industry is easily accessible, inexpensive, easily replaceable water delivery methods. And one of the benefits of the Back to Eden (or any system that calls for thick mulching) is the natural filtration provided by the mulching when the water is delivered to the surface in some manner.

So, all that said, I suggest exploring the systems offered by Farm Tek. The cost of the replacement filters is high IMO and any system seems to require lots of regular maintaining based on what others have told me - one reason why it ends up being less expensive and less time consuming to surface delivery and replace as needed.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Dave

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=62266

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=582366

http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/ProductDisplay?catalogId=15052&storeId=10001&langId=-1&division=FarmTek&productId=62251

What I see as a possible concern for using RO water for the greenhouse is you say that you have little water but, RO systems waste a lot of water too. Just something to think about. Do you have any rain catchment set up for the greenhouse and house? Even at that low rainfall amount (which I think is in the vicinity of what I get here), you could capture quite a bit if you have large enough tanks. Rainwater would be the absolute best thing in the greenhouse to prevent build up in the soil of minerals since it is never exposed to the natural rain fall. Even if you do not capture enough to use all the time, capturing some would still likely help.

Well, while I can't tell you the scientific reason why, I have talked to other people in my area they confirm that surface watering of plants with local well water is detrimental to garden plants. Most people are not dealing with my level of hardness as the national standard of very hard water is 180 ppm and mine is five times that. All I know is what I ever experienced, and that is spraying the water on the plants turns them white and result in a sick or dead plant.

I guess my biggest thought on this issue, is what type of water does nature produce for plants? Rain! And rain is soft, not hard. I don't think there is anyone here that will try to argue that rain water is not the best water to water plants with. While RO water is not rain water, it is closer then anything else that can be reasonably produced. I guess if I built a huge solar distiller, it would produce better water then RO water, but that is a project for another day.

As far as rain water goes, I think I will eventually try to create some type of rain gathering system to supplement with. My GH is a inflated hoop house and I am not sure how to effectively catch water off it without risking damage to the plastic. But I can catch water off my house roof and rig some type of transport system out to the GH storage and delivery system. Again, I am looking at a hug expense in time work and materials to realize a water catch system. I would need a large (say 1000 gallon) tank by my house to catch and store the maximum amount of water during my rare rain fall events. I would then need a way to get it to my GH 100 yards away. Of course I would need some sort of pump to get it to the garden drip system (I have a bad back and I am not going to hand carry tens of gallons of water and hand water my plants.). So as you can see, using rain water is not a simple matter when you have an 800 square foot GH garden.

Very interesting. Makes me wonder what else is in your hard water besides Ca and Mg. Ca and Mg won't kill plants. You may have some more serious herbicidal constituent in your water, and a RO system might be able to filter it out. Have to wonder if it is safe to drink that stuff. And yes, while rain water is optimal, it sounds like you just don't get much, and it's a big project to get what little there is.

Solar distiller! There's the deal. Got a few acres you can commit to that?

BTW, I believe that what highly alkaline water does to plants, when absorbed through the roots, is leaf chlorosis. That's where the leaves turn yellow, mostly because of lack of available iron. Not sure what effect it would have if sprayed on the leaves.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your water and soil test results. Again, make sure you know what the problem is before you try to solve it.

danin. You are correct. That's why I am here. I was just joking about the solar distiller. Although, I think it would be fun to try. I think through the use of parabolic or fresnel lenses, You might be able to create a small solar distiller. It's the automatic sun tracking system that is complicated to implement.

DAve. I think you have valid point about my application of the Traxx drip tape. Honestly, it's the first time I have ever used it. I actually bought the tape years ago for a different project that never developed.

So far, it is working fine how I am using it, but I can remove it in seconds if need be. The reason There is so much of it in use is that it only has drippers ever 3 feet and the are low volume 1 GPH drippers. I wanted to make sure that I got even watering for the whole area and that's why I wound it so tightly.

Because I feel there is some confusion about something, I want to provide clarification. Please understand that I am not saying that "I can't grow a garden with my current hard water". The fact is that I am doing this right now. Just ate some veggies from my garden for lunch. What I am doing here is looking for ways to improve my garden.

Let me put it this way. I don't just want an acceptable garden. I want an amazing garden. I don't just want a garden where plants can live. I want a garden where plants thrive.

I realize that what I am after may be impossible in my current environment, but the knowledge I gain in this effort will be valuable for me for the rest of my life and others as well.

Has anyone here tried the "Sonic Bloom" system?

That's the spirit. I believe that what you learn here may be valuable to many in the GW community. It might be useful to ask the Traxx folks if they have any guidance for people using their tape with extremely hard water that might leave behind precipitates. In fact, they might be interested to hear about your experiences with it.

So, OP, I have really poor alkaline soil in my orchard, with hard water. I mix a mineral integrator in my fruit sprays, and in particular grapes are making it (very sensitive to iron cholorosis). These foliar sprays are not expensive if bought in gallon quantities. then you can water to your heart content.

I am not sure what my soil is. I had a soil analysis done last month and it showed to be very alkaline (8.3 pH), but then I did several home test that showed to be acid (5 ph) I am prepping another mixed soil sample to send in for more complete testing right now.

home tests are not good. You have 8.3 pH. But water pH matters too. My water has a pH of 9.2, which will not grow any blueberries but will support thirsty plants. I think it is about 200 ppm mineral content, mostly CaCO3.

The report I got had conflicting data which lead me to distrust it. It states I had a high pH while having above critical levels of sulfur. All of the experts I talked to agree that it is virtually impossible for these two conditions to exist in the soil at the same time. Something went wrong. I talked with the county extension yesterday and they said that they found my report very strange and said that the normal pH for soil in this area is almost neutral (7 ph). My son took the soil sample while I was out of town (I asked him to do it) and did not follow the directions. The directions state to take 10 to 15 six inch deep core samples from different areas and mix them all together and then take a sample for the mix. He took two samples from different areas, one was 0 to 2 inches deep and the other was 10 to 12 inches deep. He was following instructions he found some where online.

So I need to get it redone anyways, regardless.

I was curious to see how my water would compare to yours. Our water system measures the hardness of our water in grains. That 180 ppm equals 10.5 grains and our water system reports our water is 40-42 grains hardness right now, roughly 4 times their designation of very hard water. So, I am in the ballpark of the hardness of your water.

These are things I can tell you. For my vegetables, I do not use softened water. I could not afford to use the potassium chloride for my vegetable garden. Since my soil is compose of the same stuff the aquifer is made of (limestone), I have determined one of the best things I can to do for truly excellent results is to amend the soil as much as I can afford to do (incidentally, with the low rain fall, the soil is low in organic matter). I find a great mix of things to more helpful than say, just grabbing horse manure from the neighbors. Peat moss, cotton bur compost, plenty of straw on top, etc.

The water does play a part, so in your shoes, I would think short-term and long-term. I forget the exact numbers, but RO water takes something like 3 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of water. That is a lot of waste. Over the long run, the more water you take from the well, the greater the likelihood the quality will decline and the water will get worse. That is why it is likely a good idea to work on the rain catchment to at least use in conjunction. For those of us who have made our homes in arid regions, it requires more from us to find ways to live sustainably. I understand the expenses because I too am trying to figure out a practical rain catchment for my house and gardens (I also do not underestimate what it is like to haul water, as I bail 5 gallon buckets of water from my kids bathtub and carry it downstairs and outside, a 5 gallon bucket weighs almost 40 pounds, it really sucks but my arms look great!). Just some thoughts.

That sounds like the right approach. I have somewhat alkaline soil, and somewhat alkaline water. Trying to acidify the soil chemically is almost impossible, because you keep flushing it with alkaline water. I guess it would work if you were using rain water. The best bet is just to amend it with loads of organic matter that will try to naturally neutralize it.

I also think that is correct about reverse osmosis wasting water, but I wasn't sure about how much it wasted. The process drives soft water out of the hard water by pressurizing it against a membrane, leaving very hard water behind. At some point, you can't push any more soft water out, and you need to dump the stuff on the increasingly hard water side. You don't magically just remove the Ca and Mg by precipitating them out, leaving behind all soft water.

All good stuff. Thanks for all the help. Just have to wait now on the test results.

agree with tishtosh. Organic matter and swales are the best defense. Use hard water only as a necessary help when plants look stressed. Swales are particularly good. Dig once, preserve rainwater forever. They work best with trees and large shrubs but I think even cucurbita or other large vegetables could use them. Much better than all these people I know, fumbling with 55 gallon drums to catch water from the roof. 55 gallon drums are puny compared to the water that falls on a roof during a 1-inch rainstorm.

Done tried the swale idea. No good. There was on old stock pond on my land near my county road. With a large Terex backhoe I created a 200 yard trench catch system to divert all the water that drains down the county road bar ditche in front of my land and divert it into the stock pond. I catch all the rain water the that flows down a quarter miles stretch of road. I sealed the stock pond with over 10,000 pounds of bentonite clay to seal it. That tank only catches water maybe once a year if I am lucky and the water is gone due to evaporation in about a month.

As you can see I have lived here for many years and I have spent fortunes and years of back breaking labor trying to solve this puzzle.

Jungle, this is a good book on earthworks, if you are interested: Rainwater Harvesting. I think it is a good addition to a library but it is not about making a pond. We have done some swales and they help but there is nothing that works all by itself. Of course, swales would not help a greenhouse anyway.

Dan, You may find this article from CSU on soil pH interesting. It makes the distinction between alkaline soils with and without free lime. If your soil has free lime (and mine does), then the only way to adjust the pH of the soil is to add organic matter and then the pH will come down but it may take years, and years, and years. I keep this in mind whenever I start considering selling my place to get something cheaper as a move would require starting over with the soil and starting the years, and years and years process over again.

why seal a swale? a swale is meant to have water rolling downhill stop, and seep just uphill from some tree that needs the water. I am not talking a catchment basin.

Thanks, tishtoshnm. My soil is over caliche, so it is basically full of free lime. My vinegar test results in a nice "head" of foam! That's a good CSU report, and makes the important point that if you have free lime, you ain't gonna get there, with regard to acid loving plants. I think the point about adding loads of organic material is that you eventually just displace a lot of the free lime. So it's still there, but the concentration is lower. Now, as I said, if you have alkaline water, as do I, you're just alkalizing the soil every time you water. So acidification becomes a losing proposition.

As to rainwater collection, that's a great idea, except the OP says that he/she hardly gets any rainwater. So it's a good idea in principle, but maybe not in practice.

I've been thinking about this for a while--I have a grasp on your conditions. My soil is alkiline clay & caliche, my water is 8.5 ph and I've got hard water, but not as hard as yours and about 6 inches of rain a year. So, yeah, makes sense.

One big thing that will help is leeching your garden. The most effective way is with rain water--it will pick up more of the minerals and alkalinity than your well water will. So, if I were in your position, I'd run gutters along my roof eaves and then connect the downspouts to hoses. I'd run a temporary hose system from the rain gutters out to the GH and flood it every time it rains. No pumping needed, no permanent install, no storage and you'd get enough water to leech with.

Not sure about affordable water treatment systems for your greenhouse. It will depend on what your test results say. But, I'd look into those portable water treatment systems designed for villages in the third world, I'll Google around to see if I find any that are cheap solar distillers.