Use- "Bayer advanced ,all in one, weed& crabgrass killer". A week later- mow short, remove clippings , seed , and apply starter fertilizer.

Thank You. If I spray today/tomorrow, mow short and bag the clippings next weekend, I can seed the following weekend (9/12)? I know there's an aversion to most Scott's products on this site but since Lowe's is the closest place for me to buy these materials I was planning on using Scott's sun/shade seed mix along with their fertilizer for new lawns. Are there better products at the big box store I should be getting? Also, if the Bayer product works and kills the weeds in the lawn, will I still need to go and rip them all up by hand?

I don't know what grasses are in the mix. According to the Bayer label you can plant fescue or rye immediately after spraying but need to wait three weeks before planting Kentucky bluegrass. The Scotts mix, whatever it has, is not a good value because it's only half seed (other half is coating). Look at what else is available and avoid KBG (you don't have time for it). Avoid any seed that has noxious weeds and try to find some where weeds/other crop is as low as possible. Germination rate ought to be 90% or better. Garden centers/nurseries may have better seed than big box stores. Call and ask if they have grass seed and what they have. By mowing low as your mower will go and bagging the clippings, you will be removing a lot of vegetation.

Forgive me for the stupid questions, this is all new to me...is removing a lot of vegetation a bad thing? Also, should I mow and seed at the same time or can I wait a week? Also, I've seen a lot of people on this forum are anti-core aerating, what are your thoughts? I was planning on doing this when I overseeded.

The vegetation is just whatever is in your lawn: grass and weeds. You will have killed some of the weeds. By mowing low you get a lot of stuff out of the way so your seeds will reach the soil when you spread them and the seed will have light and space. The weeds may have stalks left but they are dead and the stalks help keep the seed in place. By mowing low your grass will be somewhat shocked and not grow as fast, which is a good thing because you want the seeds to have light and you don't want to have to mow the existing grass and suck up the seeds until they have established themselves more firmly in the ground. Rye germinates in a few days, fescue in 1-2 weeks usually. Do some reading on rye and fescue to see what may work better for you. Where I live, most everyone has tall fescue. Rye can't survive here in the summer. You can do mowing and seeding in the same day but I suspect the mowing and bagging will take more time than you think it will, so probably best to plan to seed another day. Aeration isn't necessary and seed that falls into the holes may be lost because it's too deep. If you aerate, drag something over the plugs to break them up and fill up the holes. Kinda defeats the purpose of aerating, doesn't it? You can rough up the surface with a rake if you like. If there are clumps of weeds that didn:t get mowed, you could remove them with a weed whacker. The light watering you'll do every day (you must water lightly every day, several times a day) softens the ground and the seed settles in. Do you have irrigation? If not, do you have sufficient hoses and sprinklers (and a timer if you're not home during the day) to water the area conveniently? It is a light watering, just a few minutes to keep the soil moist, no puddling. You can stand around with a hose if a sprinkler setup is a problem. Your success will depend on keeping that soil moist while seed is germinating. After it comes up you decrease the frequency and increase the amount of water. Instead of aeration, maybe consider spreading a light covering (1/8 inch) of peat moss when you seed. That will help keep the seed moist. Once the new grass comes up, you can mow the old grass, which will probably need it. Mowing is good for new grass, makes it tiller. Just be careful about making turns; the ground is soft and twisting can tear up the seedlings. Make turns on sidewalks or adjacent areas.

Wow thanks for all of the help! Should I still plan on fertilizing about a month after seeding and then again around Thanksgiving? Also, my lawn is only a little over 5,000 sq ft so I shouldn't have too much trouble mowing and seeding on the same day. I will be buying extra hoses and timers for the front and back of the house since I'm not home at all during the day. What's the recommended watering time? Maybe 10 minutes 3x per day? Finally, would it be smart to lay down a thin layer of top soil and rake the seed & starter fertilizer in? That's what I've read in a few different places.

Jon, you might want to read another recent thread, "New Lawn 'Fixing.'" You will probably learn a lot and generate some new questions from that discussion.

Fertilizing like that is good. 10 minutes three times a day is great. Don't let the water puddle. Don't add topsoil all over. You can add some in low spots to make them level to the yard. It would be fine to add compost and rake the seed in. That will decompose and not change the grade. Or you could put a very thin layer of peat moss over the top. That will help keep the soil moist and will decompose. Dong the peat moss would be easier.

Thanks Becky. I'm definitely going to put these tips to good use. There's a garden center about 10 minutes from my house that is run by a few certified horticulturists that I am going to speak to about the correct type of seed to lay down. It's interesting reading comments here (don't aerate/dethatch, don't rake in a thin layer of lawn soil) vs. what's on other websites (Scotts, This Old House, etc.) which do promote those practices. In reading the New Lawn Fixing thread, I noticed you and others recommended slit seeding. Would this be a good idea for myself as well? I still have about 50-60% grass currently as opposed to 90% weeds that poster had.

Silt seeding is fine but you don't have to do it. I have the feeling it would make you more secure about the project, so go ahead.

No, I was just curious if it was necessary. Plus, it would save me $70 from renting a seed slicer by not doing it. I was curious if you had any experience using Organica, Espoma, MNLA, Bay Stateor Turf-O-Ganic fertilizers. The garden center I plan on going to is very much into organics as opposed to chemical fertilizers and products. I had success greening up in the fall very quickly with the Scotts fall fertilizer with winterizer.

I have used Milorganite and corn meal (more as a fungal preventative than as a fertilizer). I have not used the ones you name. For starter fertilizer, you want something with a higher middle number in the NPK. Just get whatever is the least expensive. I don't know of any organic starter fertilizers but I haven't been looking for them either. Call and ask if they carry "starter fertilizer." If not, you can find it at a hardware store, feed store, or big box store. You can use an organic fertilizer for the October feeding. For the one around Thanksgiving, use a synthetic with quick release nitrogen. The microbes to process organic fertilizer are going to sleep in cold weather and the nitrogen needs to get to the roots quickly in that particular feeding. Next year you can use organic fertilizer if you like for all but the final feeding. The silt seeding isn't necessary but it does ensure that the seeds have good contact with the soil. Other things you can do to ensure good soil contact are to take the back of a big plastic rake and run it across the surface after seeding. That will help shake down seed that may have gotten caught up in foliage. You can also rent a water filled roller and roll the lawn after seeding. That's probably only $15 or so.

I'm not against chemicals at all, whatever is going to green up my lawn and prevent weeds the best. So to confirm, here's my plan:

1. Spray Bayer Advanced weed+crabgrass killer tonight

2. Mow low and bag next Saturday (9/05)

3. Lay down seed and starter fertilizer the next day

4. Water 3x per day for a few minutes a time until the lawn is mowed twice. Then cut back to every 2-3 days but for longer watering intervals

5. Fertilize beginning of October and again around Thanksgiving

Am I missing anything? I greatly appreciate all of your help.

Flawless in essence, with only one consideration as below.

>> Water 3x per day for a few minutes a time until the lawn is mowed twice.

In warmer weather, it may take more than a few minutes to thoroughly dampen the seed and the top half inch of soil or so. So during early September, these irrigation cycles might be a little bit longer.

I also agree with Becky; this time, starter fertilizer makes more sense. It's available much faster, the phosphorus is much more concentrated, and the phosphorus amount is metered and guaranteed.

That's the reason I use it for soil adjustments. I could use rock phosphate...at several hundred pounds per thousand square feet...but most people would object to that just to get the organic version.

Great. That's very helpful. The long range forecast here in eastern MA is calling for a warmer September so I'll probably have to make those waterings more like 10 minutes. My plan is to plant Rye/Fescue this year, hopefully control any weeds/crabgrass and then plant KBG next year, which, if I'm reading correctly, is best suited to stand up to harsh New England winters. I'm just wondering your thoughts on the Scotts fertilizers (ie. their 4 step program) just because they're by far the most readily available. However, I have noticed most posters on this forum are against them.

Planting KBG into established Rye may cause you some issues.

You can cut back on frequency earlier than the second mow. Once the grass is up and growing, you can gradually cut back: twice a day for a while, then once a day, once every two days, etc while increasing the amount. Maybe start with ten minutes and adjust as needed (more or less). Avoid puddles. Since you're not seeding for a week and a half (which is fine, fescue and rye germinate much quicker than KBG), you might start lowering your mowing height now. Since you're spraying tonight you probably won't mow for a few days (read the instructions on the bottle). When you do mow, mow at a lower height. A few days later, mow at a lower height. I will be overseeding in early September and have been gradually lowering the height. I was at 4 and am now at 2.5. The lowest mine goes is 1.25 I think. When you do mow at the lowest, don't cut the crown of the grass. So don't go below 1 inch.

Planting KBG into anything is a challenge. Next year if you want KBG, you can kill everything with Roundup in July and plant in mid August.

The garden center can advise on grass selection. Probably go with one or the other but not both. There will likely be a mix of cultivars.

How late can I seed? I'd like to put down KGB because my lawn is a high traffic area and I'd like something to stand up to the cold. However, if I want to kill the crabgrass, I need to wait 3 weeks to seed with KBG, but rye/fescue can be done right away.

Rye technically has better cold tolerance than KBG (with the caveat that it tends to fade in summer a lot more).

If you're going to wipe the area with Round Up, you can reseed in a few days. If you use WBG crabgrass, the technical answer is 3 weeks...but you can get away with a week. Sprout of the new grasses will be reduced, and also slower.

I've got enough current grass that I don't think I need to kill everything with RU. If I sprayed now, 3 weeks is the weekend of 9/19, is that too late to seed?

If you want KBG, you can do it this fall. Use Roundup instead of the Bayer crabgrass killer. You want a blank slate instead of an overseed. Your existing grass would need mowing long before KBG germinates and that's a problem so kill everything. Kill with Roundup (generic. glyphosate is fine) tonight and then start daily watering to encourage weed seeds to sprout. Spray Roundup again on anything green Labor Day weekend and mow low, bagging clippings, and seed then. KBG takes 2-3 weeks or more to germinate and it will look spotty until next spring. It is slow to get established.

Sept 19 is too late. If you want KBG kill everything. The seed needs sun and the existing grass will shade and outcompete it. Your grass will need mowing before the KBG germinates and if you mow you could suck up seeds. A blank slate is the way to do KBG. If you want to keep your present grass, do the Bayer and fescue or rye (what is your present grass anyway?)

Right now I have the typical northeast mix of rye, fescue and KBG. Unfortunately I will be away this weekend so I can't do anything. I think I am going to stick with my original plan and head over to the garden center when I get back and see what I'll have most success with between rye or fescue.

By the way, what's the difference with the concentrate vs. the ready to weed b gone?

The concentrate has to be diluted, the ready to use stuff has already been diluted and is designed to be directly sprayed.

Because it's cheaper per unit, I get the concentrates and dilute them in a 1-gallon sprayer, then use them from there. I just write what the chemical is on the sprayer with a Sharpie.

Thanks for all your recommendations. In my haste to get a new lawn in, I didn't even realize that there are water restrictions in my town. You can only water on alternate days and outside of the hours of 9 am - 5 pm which pretty much puts the kibosh on my plans. Going forward, what are my options for this year? Weed and feed twice in the fall? I'll go back to the 4 step program again in the spring and just try to prevent as many weeds as I can, spraying them as they pop up and as long as their are no restrictions next year, plant a new lawn mid August.

I spoke with the department of public works today and they said the water restrictions are voluntary and to not let them dictate whether I should overseed my lawn. However, I've decided to wait until next year and put in KBG. I can't now since I sprayed Bayer Advanced weed and crabgrass killer last week. Now that I won't be scalping my lawn, what should I do with the weeds and crabgrass that theoretically should be dying off? Do I have to rip them out by hand or can I just leave them as is? Also, do you have any products you recommend for my fall feedings?

Let them be. I just knocked out some nutsedge and what looked like some globe thistle in the border between lawns today. It can happily rot back into the soil, and there's no need to remove them.

I occasionally joke that I leave the dead bodies there to rot, as a warming to other weeds.

>>Also, do you have any products you recommend for my fall feedings?

Were you interested in organic or synthetic?

Synthetically, anything off the shelf will be fine (I tend toward Vigoro or Lesco brands as they're much cheaper than...some others...) Go with a high nitrogen (first number) and low everything else fertilizer, like 29-0-4 or 32-0-5 or something like that. Without a soil test, it's not a great idea to toss around other resources willy-nilly.

Organically, Milorganite (probably available at your local big box store) is great. Or you can go with soybean meal if you can locate it. Apply Milo at bag rate, or soybean meal at about 15 pounds per thousand square feet.

In either case, feed the lawn one last time with any synthetic when growth stops but the grass is still green (for me, Thanksgiving, give or take, but it varies widely). That's actually the most important feeding of the year for northern lawns. For you, nearer the ocean but further north, you might be a bit earlier...but not much.

Thanks Morpheus. I don't have a preference re. synthetic vs. organic. Whatever lowes has in stock is what I'll be using. When do you recommend the first feeding? I've seen some people suggest Labor Day for the first. Does that sound right?

Labor Day is exactly correct for the first synthetic feeding of fall.

Optimally, the second is October 1st, and the last is winterization when it stops growing (but it does have to still be green).

The organic schedule differs; August 1 (optional), September 1st (Labor Day is fine), October 1, then synthetics for winterization.

Thanks again morpheus. I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions, I'm sure it can get exhausting answering the same ones over and over. Just so I have all of my ducks in a row, for synthetic feedings, the ideal schedule is Memorial Day, Labor Day, Oct 1, Thanksgiving and for organic its Memorial Day, August 1, October 1 then a synthetic on Thanksgiving? Regardless of what product I use, don't use a WnF, just spot treat as they pop up? Also, do you recommend putting down a crabgrass preventer in the spring? I've read the best time is when forsythia are in bloom, is this part of the Memorial Day feeding or prior to?

Correct. There are optional feedings in there depending on how you treat your lawn.

Synthetic: Memorial Day, Labor Day, October 1 (optional), Winterization

Organic: May 1, August 1 (optional), September 1, October 1, (optional) Winterization

For synthetics, the optional one is often the difference between good and great (assuming the soil chemistry is reasonably balanced and tested).

For organics, the optional ones are the difference between good, great, and fantastic (assuming the soil chemistry is reasonably balanced and tested).

Which way (or a combination is also fine) to feed is up to you and I have no preference for others' lawns. Either organics or synthetics will produce a nice lawn, but I do think it's a good idea to feed organically at least once per year. Synthetics tend to tap organic material and eventually that can cause problems.

>>Regardless of what product I use, don't use a WnF, just spot treat as they pop up?

Correct. You can also blanket spray if you end up with a real problem over a wider area. That involves a hose end, set according to the bottle instructions.

>>Also, do you recommend putting down a crabgrass preventer in the spring? I've read the best time is when forsythia are in bloom, is this part of the Memorial Day feeding or prior to?

Yes, and I use one (Prodiamine), more to counter P. annua than anything else in my case.

Usually that'll be much earlier than Memorial Day; the forsythia blossom in early April in my area.

Lowes has Milo so I'm going to put that down on Saturday but I need to mow prior to doing so. Should I keep my mower at normal height (3.5 inches) and still mulch and leave the clippings?

Yep. Milo has no impact on when and how you mow your lawn, so just do things normally. About the only thing I might suggest is mulch mowing if you mow just after application to avoid removing any Milo...which you're already doing. That's true of synthetics as well, there's no sense losing what you just put down.

Milo (and any other organic) won't green quickly. You're going to notice that it does green a bit in a week as Milo has some fast-release nitrogen in it. But otherwise, the greenup and growth increase is slow and steady, and hits its stride around day 21. Plus there's no major growth flush from the stuff.

Feeding organically is very different than feeding synthetically. There's no sudden influx of nitrogen, it meters in slowly and gradually and over a very long period of time.

Just curious morpheus what you use on your lawn? Synthetic or organic?

Organic on the lawn. 15 pounds of soybean meal per thousand square feet (150 pounds total) on May 1, August 1, September 1, and October 1.

The final winterization can't be organic (it's too cold to decay and required on too specific a schedule to to use it), so I drop one synthetic application when the grass stops growing but is still green, around Thanksgiving, give or take a lot.

The gardens are a mixed bag. May 1, June 1, July 1, and August 1 they see 25 pounds per thousand of soybean meal plus 18 pounds per thousand of Milorganite. Weekly they get a quarter-strength application of Miracle Gro* to keep them flush in available resources.

* Not really Miracle Gro, I make my own, but it works out to a 24-8-0 water soluble fertilizer that's quickly available.

Thanks guys...I've been reading the lawn renovation tips here. I sprayed my lawn with Round-up last Sunday, and my lawn is pretty much all dead. I'm in Ohio and wanted to know what the latest date to plant KBG would be?

Gerald: As soon as possible. You really need six weeks of growth before frost.

I wanted to plant this weekend, but I just used Round-up on the lawn this past Sunday. I've read wait anywhere from 3 days to 4 weeks before planting grass seed after round-up use. I also was going to rent a slice seeder, but is that not recommended?

You can plant immediately after using Roundup (unless you used the special kind that lasts a year). If you used it on Sunday, mow as low as possible tonight or tomorrow, bagging the clippings. Spot spray anything green Friday or Saturday. Slice seeder is fine for roughing up the surface but not required; use your broadcast spreader for sowing. Sometimes the rented machines don't seed evenly. With your broadcast spreader you can set it on a low setting and make several passes and know that the seed is evenly distributed.