Fluazifop-P-butyl has other characteristics that may affect your ability to grow healthy roses.

"5. Conclusion
This work demonstrated clearly that fluazifop-P-butyl application reduced pea grain yield and affected enzyme activity (acid phosphatase, urease and FDA) and diversity of soil bacterial communities even at commonly used field-rates. The extent of fluazifop-P-butyl effect was more pronounced in the close vicinity of the root system than in the surrounding bulk soil, suggesting the involvement of the plant itself in orienting bacterial response through modulation of root exudation. The shift in soil bacterial communities was marked by the stimulation of acidogenic and sulfate-reducing bacteria that may be involved in fluazifop-P-butyl degradation. Unfortunately, this herbicide stimulated also some potential pathogens and inhibited some bacteria with plant growth promoting abilities. More relevant results could be obtained by targeting specific functional groups that are more likely to be directly or indirectly affected by fluazifop-P-butyl."

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ridha_Mhamdi/publication/268517563_Fluazifop-P-butyl_(herbicide)_affects_richness_and_structure_of_soil_bacterial_communities/links/547431e40cf29afed60f620b.pdf

Abstract at:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0038071714003770

Thank you for the info on Grass B Gone! My daughter and I both thank you. Purchased it yesterday and sprayed it today. Hopefully it will help with the grass problem!

Interesting data Henry. Thank you and thank everyone else for the information.

How would you deal with wiregrass, Henry Kuska?

I mainly pull weeds - I have a special tool so that I can do it without bending over (I am 78). I also place corn gluten meal, then cardboard/newspaper down in the spring before applying mulch. I sometimes put green grass looking indoor-outdoor carpet (with rubber backing) over a group of stubborn weeds until the weeds have died.

But wiregrass is impossible to pull,and I can't put corn gluten and cardboard. In the middle of a Rose.

The following was stated: " I can't put corn gluten and cardboard. In the middle of a Rose."

I do not understand the answer.

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U.California Davis is normally a place that I check.

http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7453.html

.

Henry, You're 78?! I thought you were still teaching in school. I will take it easy on you, try not to make your blood pressure go up often, I am sure I did in the past. :-) Are you sure Grass B Gone can kill rabbits, they're still hopping with same speed as before.......

Henry, where I am with all of the yards around me being bermuda grass I fully understand her statement.

Bermuda grass seed blows in the air. It blows into flowerbeds and germinates. Root runners go underground for a long way and suddenly spring up somewhere. I've had it grow under a rock wall that was 18" in the ground. Right now I have three rose bushes with Bermuda grass growing in the soil at the base of the bushes. You can pull it but since Bermuda grass has very deep, fine roots when you pull it you are simply breaking off the roots and it will come right back. While the cardboard method will work on the open areas of the flowerbed it will not work when it is growing in the middle of a rose!

I'll be glad to show a picture if you still don't understand.

Beth, the "can't" statement included corn gluten meal. It is a powder. Powders can be applied right up to the canes. Its purpose is to prevent the weed seeds from germinating. Of course it does not effect existing growth.

The Davis article mentions the problems of: "Controlling Bermudagrass Seed

Following the treatment of a stand of established bermudagrass, bermudagrass seed that is present in the soil can still be a problem. Bermudagrass seed will not be controlled with any of the previously mentioned treatments except solarization.

Treating Around Ornamentals

If bermudagrass seeds germinate in areas around ornamental plantings, the seedlings can be controlled with shallow cultivation, hoeing, or a thin layer of mulch"

Concerning using a barrier (in my case, cardboard) method right up against the cane, of course, the control will not be perfect, but I feel that it does help. These Davis quotes seem pertinent: "If ornamentals are planted in holes in the plastic, bermudagrass control is reduced. " AND "Mulching with products such as wood chips is not effective against bermudagrass because the weed can push up this mulch. If organic landscape (geotextile) fabrics are used under the mulch, however, control can be achieved. The fabric must be overlapped so the stolons do not grow between the fabric sheets. If holes or gaps are present in the fabric, control will be reduced because bermudagrass is likely to grow through the holes. "

Trust me, bermuda is the devil's grass...it needs to be controlled with tactical nukes and darn the man who introduced it to this country!

I put in bold an interesting point that has not been mentioned so far (I think).

"Use a fabric barrier

Too impatient to wait six months? Put down heavy landscaping fabric after you scrape away the grass. Next, cut holes in the fabric ― the smaller the better ― just where you want to plant.

This method only works for permanent plantings such as shrub and perennial borders, not for annual and vegetable beds that get changed out frequently, she says.

Cover the cloth with mulch to keep it from degrading in the sun. If possible, irrigate with drip so that only the planted areas get moisture. You'll have to monitor the cut-out areas for Bermuda intrusion, but the rest of your yard should stay weed-free. (The roots in the covered portions of soil simply stop growing.)"

FROM:

http://www.sunset.com/garden/earth-friendly/how-to-remove-bermuda-grass

Henry, Your idea is good, but you only could get a C+ if I was the professor. :-) Because it costs a lot more time and $$ plus hard labor to compete. Grass B Gone is $6.00 a bottle, it's super easy and fast to get it done. :-) Cheers

Sorry Henry but I would have to give you an F as Bermuda grass will go through landscaping fabric in a very short period of time. Who ever suggested using it must have never actually had to contend with the grass. It didn’t get his nick name as the ‘Grass from hell’ for nothing. If you take a good look at the end of the grass roots you will find a very sharp point, almost like a birds beak. It uses the ’beak’ to punch through the fabric. It can also feed off a root system that could be yards away from your plants.

I once put down black plastic over a 10x20 foot area and it still lived. One year later when the plastic was lifted up the grass roots were still there waiting to send the grass up. Use the Grass B Gone. :-) Cheers

"Mesa Thinksa Yousa" don't have Bermuda Grass Henry!

Henry,

Would you please post some photos of your garden so everyone can see how effective your methods work for your garden? I have admired no-grass rose beds posted here and wonder if there is a secret because the grasses in my rose garden multiply faster than I can pull them out. Thanks. Helen

summersrhthm, last I looked, cardboard boxes are free at the grocery store.

I suggest that you consider the possible total cost of your solution to you and to the environment. I earlier posted some health related information.

The idea of total cost is not new. The following reviewed published scientific paper compares the use of fluazifop-P butyl to other chemicals, see Table 2.

human - 4

animal - 4

birds - 0

aquatic - 5

beneficials - 5

(high environmental risk = 5, no toxicity = 0)

http://ageconsearch.umn.edu/bitstream/177160/2/agec2001v025i002-003a011.pdf

I've seen Bermuda grass come up through black plastic!!!! That stuff is vile! We covered a section of our vegetable garden with heavy black plastic for an entire year and when we pulled the plastic up to plant it was still alive and well. I dislike using chemicals and pull weeds not spray them but I had to throw in the towel on Bermuda grass and I don't regret it!

Beth, toolbelt68, in this thread I documented my replies concerning control of Bermuda Grass with sources that I feel are reliable. The sources presented the chemical control options along with the barrier ones. I pointed out (with documentation) the possible problems to health and the environment of one of the chemical choices.

toolbelt68, first you talk about how the sharp tips of the grass cuts through the landscaping fabric in a very short period of time, then you state: "I once put down black plastic over a 10x20 foot area and it still lived. One year later when the plastic was lifted up the grass roots were still there waiting to send the grass up."

It sounds like you are saying that the sharp tips did not cut through the plastic? You appear to be concerned that the cover did not kill the roots. I think the Sunset article describes that situation: "(The roots in the covered portions of soil simply stop growing.)"

bayarea_girl(NorCA 9) , your request for pictures is acknowledged. I use to have about 1000 roses (I am a rose hybridizer.) Each summer I would hire a student to take care of the roses. For several years now I am down to about 61 (for health reasons). This is a series of pictures of those left:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110676259758596791462/RosesFromFinalCutOf612012

The following is an older group selected from the 1000:

https://picasaweb.google.com/110676259758596791462/HenrySRoses

Henry, bermuda doesn't spread by seed, although it can. It is not like the grass you are used to. It has rhizomes and that is how it spreads. It can spread underground (it loves mulch!). I had bermuda spread underneath a 2 ft concrete walkway into a flower bed.

Sorry, but unless you can dig it all up, which is hard, chemicals are the way to go. You don't have bermuda grass, you can't imagine what it does.

Buford, it appears that you are unwilling to accept alternate solutions written by professionals such as the University Of California, Davis paper that I linked to. Well, here is a 137 long thread on the subject from the Organic Gardening Forum. I will just "clip" one post:

" I did lay down a few layers of paper over Bermuda grass along with a bunch of compost that I got free from our town and then smugly started planting...and you are correct, the Bermuda grass came right up through it.

Rather than abandoning my garden I basically sealed the plantings in with 8 layers of newspaper and cardboard, leaving a little space around the stem of each plant. I wetted it down to try to seal in the edges of the newspaper and I then covered it with wood chip mulch. During the hottest part of summer this newspaper felt like a paper mâché crust on the top of the bed. For the rest of the season I was vigilant about removing any stray grass runner which managed to find a weak spot in the layers. The plants did fine that summer, but the newspaper looked really tacky when the wind would blow off the wood chips.

I left everything in place after the summer ended and at the beginning of the next season apprehensively dug through the remaining mulch, and was pleasantly surprised that 90% of the Bermuda grass was gone, but the rest was easy to pull.

It's gone from the beds now but the grass along the border of the bed constantly tries to get into the bed and I have to be vigilant about removing it."

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1521679/organic-way-to-get-rid-of-bermuda-grass?n=137

Yes, I am rejecting their advice because IT SUCKS. Just like I would avoid advice from California on what roses are disease resistant.

Your problem Henry is that you read something in a study and take it as the absolute truth. Sorry, but that is not always the case. And any of these studies, you have to take location into the equation. You never do. what may work in Ohio or California doesn't work every where. I wouldn't tell you not to winter protect your roses. Don't tell me what works in my yard.

I've been dealing with wire grass at the public garden by maintaining a one foot border of bare soil around each bed. I use a tool, similar to a hoe to turn the soil a couple of times each season and break off the wire grass stolons (I think they're called stolons). Since the lawn is mowed weekly, there are no seeds to germinate.

In the near future, I may move to another garden in our system which I understand has been overrun by wire grass. I thought my only recourse in that situation would be to lift & bareroot the plants, clean the wire grass from the beds and replant. Its good to know that some have had success with cardboard.

I appreciate the safety information that Dr K provides. If you feel that in your situation you must use GBG, please recognize that it is hazmat and suit up accordingly.

do you think the following methods would work --i am using raised beds, as i can't dig in the gumbo soil in this area and our entire yard is almost perfectly flat, leaving a few drainage issues, it just takes a while longer than i would like for the rain to perk through the soil (maybe a day) anyway, the plan is organic weed fabric followed by a couple of layers of cardboard then at least a foot of soil maybe i will try the cornmeal before the fabric??

would it be possible to use round up or grassbgone before the weed barrier (yes i really don't want to but........) any comment is appreciated

I use professional ground cover in my back yard because the crab grass (or whatever you want to call it) is relentless, however it still comes through. The problem with ground covers is that the grass ends up growing sideways to find the light/water. Also, crab grass will pierce most everything. I have done the application of cardboard boxes along with ground cover, but as soon as you cut the hole to plant the rose it surges up through the hole. You are left with a mass of very thickly clumped grass at the base of your roses and the roots tangle into your roses root structure. I am on a slope, so I have elevated rose beds that I filled with very good potting soil from The Bushel Stop. Even after burying the crab grass under five feet of soil, it still came up.

I am a proponent of devising non-chemical solutions to garden problems, but this one goes beyond the norm. Currently ALL of my roses are in 7-10 gallon pots. The fall (I live in South Florida) I plan to plant all of them in the ground with the hopes of getting them established before the grass grabs on. I will definitely be using Grass Be Gone because there really is no other way. I will NOT use Round Up as this always results in residual contamination (either on contact or via soil born methodology.

The after...

Henry, when I put down the plastic it was to clear out the Bermuda grass so I could plant some wild flowers. I could care less if it just stopped growing while under the plastic. I wanted the darn stuff killed off, which didn’t happen. You are just kidding yourself if you think cardboard, fabric cloth, or plastic is going to stop Bermuda grass.

You seem to put a lot of faith in what professional’s publish and not much in what common folks are trying to tell you. Maybe you should give them a try. PHD in front of one’s name can also mean ‘Piled Higher and Deeper’….. cheers, :-)

toolbelt68(7) I gave a link to a 137 post thread. These are "common folks".

In addition to the post I singled out in that thread, other threads have reports that barriers work, for example: " Gosh...time sure does fly. I've been meaning for almost 6 months now to report on my experiment with solarization. I was the one who posted picture above with the black plastic. No one is more shocked than I am, but I wanted to let those interested know- it worked! I mean for once in my life, I finally defeated my greatest gardening foe- the formidable Bermuda! Weeds are gone from both areas that I covered. If I recall correctly, I did keep the plastic on all the way from September to the beginning of December, so perhaps the lengthy duration helped (whether due to heat + lack of light, or just lack of light, I don't know). Of course, now that it's un-covered again, some Bermuda seeds could get blown into the soil once again...but so far so good. My only problem is, now I've got some other hotspots that, for aesthetic reasons, I don't really want to use the black plastic for an extended period of time. So, back to pulling weeds for those areas, I suppose."

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1731921/has-anyone-got-rid-of-bermuda-grass-without-chemicals

Buford, this is a forum, if you have knowledge that Bermuda Grass behaves differently in California please share it.

My complete post then refers you to a 137 post thread where other replies were given. I pointed out (singled out) one that appeared (to me) to be very similar to the situation being discussed.

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Peace, peace please........we need to think about the blood pressure here........ice tea is good for hot weather. :-)

I second the ice tea!!! I just pulled a bunch of weeds including the much discussed culprit of this thread and I could use a glass!

The weed wrecks havok on our yards no sense letting it wreck friendships.

A reviewed published scientific paper concerning black plastic mulch and Bermuda grass control:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01448765.2012.745687#.Vd4rpjZRE2x

Another possible solution for roses:

http://www.rosebreeders.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=55151

Henry, I have already stated my personal experience with bermuda grass which with I have been dealing with for 15 years. And I live in the same zone as the OP.

The only time I would consider using landscape cloth is under a path where I was going to put rocks or mulch that I did not want to get ground into the dirt. But I would kill off the grass first. It will grow through the cloth and the rocks and, as I've stated, under a 2 ft wide concrete walkway. Leaving a one foot bare barrier sounds like a good idea. I have about 6 inches now in most of my beds. I am planning on putting in stone edging, and raising up the beds a bit and hopefully that will help. I also find that edging with a gas edger (the blade, not the string) helps keep the edge.

Once it gets in the beds and around established plants, the only recourse is to wait till after it rains and pull it up or use Grass B Gone. It's usually a never ending battle.

I've seen pound in metal edging in garden catalogs. I wonder if anyone's tried it with bermuda? The initial purchase would be expensive but it would be a big time saver in the long run.

Yep, tried it, have it and nope, it doesn't make a tiny bit of difference. The bermuda grass just grows down and under and comes right back to the surface in the flowerbed. It does act as a barrier against some weeds but not bermuda grass.

Yes, I've had the same experience. Bermuda can live a foot under ground and puts out long (I've had some as long as 18 inches) so it sometimes seems as if it just popped in out of nowhere, but when you pull it up, you can trace it back up.

Even the stone edging will not stop it. I just think it will look nice and make it easier to edge around the beds.

WANT TO KILL BERMUDA GRASS?Here is a good link on bermuda grass

These are not roots. Rhizomes serve 2 purposes, reproduction and survival.
They spread out from the base of a mature plant and find a new area to
grow. They may spread just a few inches before surfacing to start a new plant. They can also travel dozens of feet, under plastic sheeting or driveways before they find an opening to get above ground.
Rhizomes can also be the plant’s survival mode. If the top growth dies
off for any reason, the underground shoot often survives and can remain viable for years.
When conditions are right, it pushes out new growth to the surface to
start a new plant. A small portion of a shoot left in the ground can be
enough to regenerate.

bayarea_girl, some of the pictures show the mulch behind the roses. I have old garden wide pictures, but I have just converted my computer and my wife's computer to Windows 10 and I have two very crippled computers so I suggest that you do not hold your breath..

Your suggestion:

" However, it would be helpful if you at least try the methods yourself and then confirm whether they work or not. Even scientists have different opinions about everything so give us links without verify them can make people really upset if they try the method you recommend through those links and they don't work."

specifically is not practical in zone 5 for Bermuda grass (Our winters kill Bermuda grass).

In many other cases, it also is not practical since each reader's conditions may not be the same as in the article posted such as your example of powdery mildew and milk. Nature is complex.

Your statement: "However, if it doesn't work in a normal garden environment, then I don't think it's useful to us." is interesting. You appear to be generalizing that since it did not work in your rose garden with your roses that it also will not work in any other rose gardens. Here is a Google search:

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&authuser=0&gws_rd=ssl#hl=en&authuser=0&q=roses+powdery+mildew+milk

Yes, nature is complex. Which is why your one study does not apply to everyone's yard. What you criticize others for, you do yourself.

As you said, in zone 5, bermuda grass would not survive. So can you accept that it behaves differently in different climates and what may work in one will not work in another?? Why do you continually discount others who have first hand experience for some random study that you googled? You said this is a forum, and it is. It is more worthwhile if we all contribute our own ideas rather than just post information we google off of the internet.

I didn't intend to open Pandora 's box, but I do appreciate all the shared knowledge, scholarship, and experience. There are so many variables in a garden, I suspect few generalizations can be absolute for every individual. For some reason it is comforting to know others are fighting the same battles. I'm deeply concerned about the environment and health,so I use as few chemicals as possible, but with these multistemed established shrub roses, I'm going to use as little Grass Be Gone as possible. It's not practical to add plastic now. The grass will seek out a sliver of light to survive. So, all bad feelings Be Gone!

Henry,

It's interesting with the computer problem. Very timing. I'm not surprised. Most people can use a phone to take pictures and post them here. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out or find alternatives.

I have seen you posted a lot of links without saying whether you make an effort or find ways to test them out. You can either test them out yourself or ask someone in other areas to test them for you. I think it's irresponsible with someone of your high education. Isn't that in school we learn "critical thinking"? Make an "effort" to verify the information you receive. Don't just blindly believe something just because someone says so.

Most of us don't need someone else to Google for us. We already did that. We came here for practical solutions that someone has actually tried it and it works for them. It is easy to copy and paste links from Google. Be a responsible adult and make an effort to verify the information and let us know when it works, when it doesn't work and why. If you need help verify certain info, ask people in the forum to help out. We have people live all over the world. Please don't just copy and paste things from Google without doing the extra responsible work and state them as facts especially with someone who has a PhD.

bayareagirl, obviously, my choices of how I want to contribute to this forum are different than your expectations. That is your decision.

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Buford stated: "Which is why your one study does not apply to everyone's yard. What you criticize others for, you do yourself."

AND:

"Why do you continually discount others who have first hand experience for some random study that you googled? "

H.Kuska comment. Please put into quotes what you are referring to."

I just want to mention this before turnning in for the night. High blood pressure is known as the "silent killer," Henry is 78, and he has a family to support, we don't want anything happens to him beacuse a grass discussion. We can keep all our differences without getting him upset, right?

Good night

This reviewed published scientific paper confirmed the usefulness of heavy plastic mulches against Bermuda Grass, and found some organic mulches that were also effective.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/43/3/795.full

From the abstract: "Therefore, a 2-year study was conducted under 15-year-old mandarin trees to compare the effects of rice straw mulch, cattail mulch, black plastic mulch, hand hoeing, cultivation, glyphosate, and unweeded control treatments on weed control, fruit yield, and fruit quality. The greatest control (94%–100%) of weeds occurred with the plastic mulch (200 or 150 μm) and three mulch layers of rice straw or cattail. Covering soil with cattail or rice straw mulch (two layers) gave 85% to 98% control of weeds. Uncontrolled weeds in the weedy control caused significant reduction in yield and fruit quality and decreased the yield/tree by 62% compared with hand hoe treatment. Plastic mulches of 200 and 150 μm, cattail (Cyprus articulatus L.) mulch (two or three layers) and two mulch layers of rice (Oryza sativa L.) straw treatments significantly increased the fruit yield/tree by 24%, 18%, 20%, 11%, and 12% more than cultivation treatment, respectively, without significant differences among these superior treatments. Soil mulching with three layers of rice straw, cultivation, glyphosate, and 80-μm plastic mulch treatments caused a significant reduction in weed density and weed biomass, but gave lower yield than superior treatments.

Which weeds were in the experiment?

" The major grass weeds present on the experimental site were bermudagrass [Cynodon dactylon (L.) Pers.], barnyardgrass [Echinochloa colonum (L.) Link], torpedo grass (Panicum repens L.), and sandbur (Cenchrus pennisetiformis, Hochst. & Steud.) as a grass, and redroot pigweed (Amaranthus retroflexus L.), common purslane (Portulaca oleracea L.), and petty spurge (Euphorbia peplus L.) as broadleaf weeds."

lainey, use enough to kill what you need to kill. Otherwise it will come back and you will just have to spray more. You are likely only spraying in a small area, so it's not going to cause a problem for the rest of the plants in the bed. It only kills grasses.

This thread is the classic case of two roads diverging. A few points:

1- Everything is an opinion. From first hand knowledge to studies performed by clinical statisticians, nothing is ever concrete. Studies are often funded by corporations with vested interests in selling their products and informal case studies (our experiences) are glimpses at microcosms that are never one-size-fits-all/most. The best perspective is a wide perspective, not a narrow one.

2- Everyone is here to share information in order to better the cause. Sure, I've noted trolls from time to time, but they are rare and far between. No one is out to ruin everyone's roses, so respect their contribution and take it or leave it.

3- No one likes to feel left out or attacked. Let's be civil to one another and understand that our words have impact.

4- Energy is the most contagious commodity we have. Keep it positive and we contribute to a place we can call home and feel safe. Keep it negative and things shut down.

5- I'm no one to play peace keeper here, but as a proud member of this community I thank you for reading my suggestions.

A request was made: "the pictures that you linked to are the very close views of roses and we couldn't see how effective grass problems being controlled in your garden. If you can post some recent pictures of your rose garden not your rose closeups that will help a lot."

--------------------------------------------------------------

An opportunity to toot my own horn. Please see:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.143709

The general description of this rose is at:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.63226

Of course one can always say that one picture may not be "typical".

The above picture appears in the following group of pictures which also include pictures at various distances (all of the breeding beds pictured are no longer in existence):

https://picasaweb.google.com/110676259758596791462/RosePictures

I assume that the reader understands that controlling weeds is especially important in breeding beds.