Sophie is correct. Ideally you should have at least 18" of counter on both sides of the range.

Thank very much. I'm going to have to study this a bit more but appreciate the thoughtfulness and time to respond.

Post your layout. There may be a better location. But, as the question is framed, it's correct to say, ''neither''. Both choices would seriously overpower a wall of that size without even considering any safety requirements of needed emergency landing zones.

North wall is 95", east 50" which is where the current 36" gas range is. The South wall w/sink/DW, is 120" (but leads into the mud room, west facing wall has double windows. There is also a very small island. The house is a beautiful 1928 brick cottage and has wonderful bones, I'm just really looking to update. I ask the gas dept visit to see about running a line to the North wall.

Not only would that leave you without the recommended landing zones for cooking, it would also require fireproofing (especially with gas). I agree. Bad idea. If you would share a diagram of your layout with dimensions, perhaps we can help you design a kitchen that is safe, functional and attractive.

I don't know what your budget or limitations are, but is there a possibility of:

1. Closing up the walkway into mudroom.

2. Putting washer/dryer in mudroom on wall behind where stove is?

3. Where the washer/dryer currently are becomes your walkway through to mudroom, etc.

4. Load bearing wall between kitchen/formal dining room partially opened up with new header in place.

This would give you an "L" shaped kitchen with space for your stove on the same wall and open up to your dining creating an open concept area.

I could not expand your room layout to see the dimensions, so I'm hoping that the dimensions I think I'm seeing would justify this plan.

Is this house on joist or on a cement pad? If you move your W/D will it be on concrete or joist? You don't want a washer placed in the middle of a joist span because it will bounce more, like a trampoline. My Miele front loader instructions recommended placing the washer along a load bearing wall (where the joist are supported).

Do you have a layout of the Kitchen space with all dimensions
labeled? (The one above only has some dimensions, not all and not all
key dimensions.) We need to see the widths of each
wall/window/door/doorway and the distances b/w each wall/window/door/doorway.

That hall looks quite large. Can some of it be taken for the washer/dryer?

I
like DesignSaavy's idea of closing off the doorway on the top left wall
of the kitchen and opening up the path from the Mudroom to the Kitchen
on the lower left of the Kitchen.

What about rearranging the rooms a bit like this?

For doorways - you could:

Mudroom/Kitchen: right wall, bottom of the Mudroom/bottom left of the Kitchen

Mudroom/Laundry Room/Foyer: through Mudroom on bottom wall on the right to the Laundry Room and maybe through the Laundry Room to the Foyer on the right side of the Laundry Room.

Regarding an island...your Kitchen is not deep enough at 10'8" for an island, even a narrow one, if you have a refrigerator on one wall and counters on the opposite. Is the layout you posted your current or planned?

Even a rolling island has to have a place to "park" so it's not in the way - and there does not seem to be enough room for that.

Even if you move the Refrigerator, you don't really have enough room for more than a 24" deep island - and that's not very much room! It's less than what a standard perimeter counter has (25.5").

Have you considered removing the wall b/w the Kitchen and DR? That would give you more room and you might be able to fit an island then.

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A full-floor layout would be very helpful! (e.g., where are the family bedrooms? Upstairs - then where are the stairs? On the same floor - then where?)

Your kitchen is not wide enough, top to bottom to accommodate an island, not if you want workable aisles.

A better plan is a U or galley lay-out with the mudroom door moved away from the exterior door.

Here are 3 quick takes:

Moving the mudroom door means you can extend the counter run on the top wall to the left wall. The path from mudroom/exterior to DR is not through the working part of the kitchen.

Sink and DW to right wall, fridge with pull-out pantry on top wall, range on shared DW wall.

Plan B is similar but with DW and sink sharing the top wall with the fridge.

Mid-Country French Farm · More Info

Island View · More Info

Kitchens by Julie Williams Design · More Info

You could also put a glass cabinet over the window like this:

Kitchen with a View · More Info

Century Home Kitchen - University City, MO · More Info

Plan B gives you a huge area to prep between sink and range. It also allows for a 36" or possibly wider range.

The last option I quickly drew up is a galley lay-out.

Lots of room on each side of the range but it is a long walk (6 ft +) from range to sink.

What I didn't draw up but may be a possibility for you, depending on
code, is putting the range on the top wall under the window.

Alki Cottage · More Info

Don't be deterred if the windows on the right wall are lower than counter height. You can put counter in front of lower windows.

Main Cabin · More Info

It would be very helpful to know more about you. How many live in this home, how many cooks at a time, children, age of children, do you entertain, etc. See How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

Thank you so much for the thoughtful consideration! As I mentioned, I'm in not a kitchen aficionado, but I want to be! Quick answers. Dimensions: I'm uploading an exact measurement that the previous owners had done for some cabinets. Very small space given the size of the house (3400ft').

Could the Washer/Dryer go into the basement (unfinished)?

No children. Just myself and two heinous cats.

Putting the washer/dryer in basement is not good for resale. I like what Lisa has suggested.

We don't know where you are with budget.

You can:

1. Close off current entrance to mudroom.

2. Make new entrance where your stove currently is. (This will still give you access through mudroom to the backyard).

3. Now that the old mudroom doorway is closed, you can have cabinetry all along the back wall, making a turn on the right side wall with cabinetry as well.

4. Either continue that into a "U" shape kitchen on the closed off kitchen/dining room wall or open it up and have the "U" shape with counter seating on the dining room side.

5. If there's enough room, you could eliminate the "U" and open up wall to create an island.

6. Either plan will leave pantry and laundry where it us.

Fyi, islands need at least 36" open space on all sides (more is better) so in a 10ft room which is what I read in your plan, 3' walkway+ 3'island+3'walkway=9' =you wouldn't have space for a counter along the walls

What is the number one thing you were trying to accomplish with this change?

Practical is correct. The only way to get an island is to open up the dining room wall completely, and make an "L" kitchen, not a "U". You could not have anything on the stove wall. That would all be walkway. (Except your pantry closet). Allowing for the 24"+ depth of the cabinetry along the back wall plus 36" walkway (5+ feet) you can have a 5 ft long island positioned from the edge of the dining room opening toward the back of the house cabinetry.

So, "L" shape along back wall and right side wall, open dining room wall, add island. You're not going to have an incredibly deep island, so a "U" shaped, open to dining kitchen with dining room side counter seating would be my vote. It wouldn't feel so tight in the kitchen as well.

Ummm....I don't know if you read my post with the picture of the rooms - showing a new Laundry Room and moving doors. It takes some space from the Foyer to create a Laundry Room "below" the Mudroom so the upper Mudroom door can be closed off and a new door opened where what I think is your current pantry (that small jog on the bottom of the left wall).

Then, have a walkway or doors b/w the Mudroom and the Laundry Room into the Foyer & the rest of the house.

You could put the Laundry Room in the basement, but not everyone likes that. We have our W/D in the unfinished part of our basement - at the time it was the only way to get a Pantry in the Kitchen. Would I do it over? Only if I could add on to the house or find a way to have both a pantry & Laundry Room. A Pantry is more important to me than a Laundry Room - but many others don't agree.

Ideally - the Laundry Room should be where your family bedrooms are (in your case, where your bedroom is). That way you don't have to run up/down the stairs.

Is your bedroom on a second floor? If so, look for a place for a W/D on the second floor.

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Do you have a full-floor layout? We don't know where other rooms/stairs are that might affect our recommendations.

If you are willing to relocate the mudroom and the DR doors, you'd have room for a very functional U lay-out kitchen without any exterior changes, a plus when you're dealing with a brick exterior.

Here what's possible with those 2 minor interior structural changes, which is easy for the non load-bearing mudroom wall and not that big a deal for the load-bearing DR wall (just did this for new entries on 2 load-bearing walls in our kitchen remodel).

I added a MW drawer next to the fridge; most items go from fridge to MW. You will need to watch fridge door swing so that you don't bang an open MW drawer with the fridge door but since it's just you, this may not be a big deal.

You could also shift the MW drawer over to the corner. It's unlikely that you or anyone would have DW door open at the same time as the MW drawer.

The sink is centered under the windows with DW to its right. Dishware and glassware storage in upper cabs to right, silverware storage in drawers to right.

Here's what I mean by "towel cab."

Ireland in CT · More Info

Functional and a nice tribute to your home's vintage.

The top wall is cooking/prep zone with lots of storage for prep items, pots and pans, etc. I put the trash cab in that area but you could also put trash under the sink (that's what I have, didn't want to give up storage for trash, not a problem for us).

If you'd rather have MW in the cooking/prep zone, here's a variation of Plan E:

I voided the upper right corner in favor of wider drawers on each side of the corner.

You haven't told us a lot about yourself so I'm guessing what your goals and needs are. For instance, I don't know if you want a MW or if instead of a MW drawer, you can get by with a small MW (GE Spacemaker II) in the small pantry or in one of the upper cabs. I don't know if you entertain, if you like to bake, etc. You can give us feedback to know what tweaks need to be made to any plan we present but if it would be much more useful and a better use of our time to know this information in advance. Please see the link I posted above.

I can't thank you all enough for the thoughtful suggestions. @Buehl, I do like the idea of adding W/D upstairs but think the middle of the house is central and convenient at the moment. Eliminating doors is a great suggestion and one that I honestly had not considered, @Lisa_A - I'm curious, the wall that you have the DW on, has (2) large windows...are you proposing eliminating those to have the U-shaped kitchen and added cabinet space?

FWIW, I like to entertain, cook, not a ton of baking. Just me and two crazy cats (don't ask). Thanks everyone!

Are you talking about the right wall with windows? I asked in an earlier post if these windows were counter height but I didn't get an answer. "Large windows" is a vague answer. That can mean wide or tall or both.

If these windows are below counter height, you have 2 options.

The first option doesn't not require window replacement or exterior changes: install cabs and counter in front of the windows, ala the inspiration photo I posted in an above post.

The other option is to replace the low windows with counter height windows and add trim detail below the new windows as shown for the windows to the right in this pic:

Cumberland Circle · More Info

Are these doable options for you? I hope so because IMO, it would be a waste of valuable kitchen real estate if you don't add cabs and counter to that right wall.

I can't thank each of you enough! Okay. I'm tracking and trying to take your direction. Question for you. Does removing both DR and formal parlor walls create a functional and enjoyable open space? Would a vertical 4x9 island work?

existing:

considering (feedback appreciated!):

THANK YOU!

Long narrow rooms are less than pleasant psychologically. I'd leave the parlor, and use that as the DR. Besides, how much IS your budget for this project? Wanna blow it all on structural alterations?

I like Sophie's idea. Another alternative is to leave the DR where it is and remove the wall between kitchen and DR, like this:

Or this:

I drew these up fairly quickly to give you an idea of what would be possible by removing the wall between kitchen and DR.

In Plan G, the "aisle" between low windows and island is merely enough to keep clear of the windows and to give you room to run a broom or vacuum between windows and island. It's not meant to be a traffic aisle. Oh, meant to draw another seat at the island. 100" would be better for 4 seats but it's still doable at 96" wide.

The above plans do not include a formal DR. If that isn't in keeping with your home's style or your needs, then do as Sophie suggested and turn the formal parlor into a formal DR and the existing kitchen and DR into a large eat-in kitchen.

Your home has a large amount of space devoted to the foyer and hallway. Are there stairs in one of those spaces? I'm presuming you must have stairs somewhere but it's not clear where they are.

You didn't respond to my suggestion of how to use the wall with the low windows. Are any of my suggestions feasible? It seems a shame not to take advantage of that wall. You could create an L with island lay-out.

I echo Sophie's question about how big your budget is and how much you want to spend on structural changes. You posted above that you were just looking to update so that makes me think that you aren't wanting to spend the $$$ on large structural changes but I could be wrong. Additionally, large structural changes could change the feel of your "beautiful 1928 brick cottage" with its "wonderful bones."

@Sophie, {I'm not sure I understand what Long narrow rooms are less than pleasant psychologically." means??}. I do think keeping the parlor as a DR is smart, just losing the wall, or most of it; my contractor recommends leaving 36"-42" on each end of the parlor wall to help break-up the tunnel vision.

Contractor also rec'd a vertical island, since the space is longer v wide.

• grand staircase is just outside hallway door (DR)
• I'm leaving the windows. great light into these rooms. thank you for the suggestion though.

@Lisa_a

• I like the island you have here...maybe flip the island, so it runs with the length of the kitchen and not against? also gives more comfortable seating {In Plan G, the "aisle" between low windows and island is merely enough to keep clear of the windows and to give you room to run a broom or vacuum between windows and island. It's not meant to be a traffic aisle. }
• 36" range on the end of the island near the sink (wall)
• fridge in pantry?
• do you have opening the walls between DR/Parlor? like that.
• budget is remodel not renovate. sorry for the confusion.

I honestly can't thank you all enough for your generosity. Great feedback!

I'm not sure what you hope to gain by turning the island 90 degrees. By moving the island seating to face the windows, you can decrease the aisle between island and table from 60" (NKBA minimum for an aisle with back to back seating) to 44" (NKBA minimum for an aisle wide enough to walk behind seated diners) but that only nets you a 59" wide island. That would mean less than 12" of counter on each side of a 36" range. I had a little more than that - 16" - on each side of my island cook top and I *hated* it. It's barely enough room to set a pan down, much less prep next to the cook top.

Additionally, venting an island range is expensive. We had a pop-up downdraft for our gas cook top but that's not the best option for a 36" gas range. First of all, a pop-up downdraft pulls on the gas flames; when a burner is low and the vent is on high, the vent can pull the flame out. The newer pop-ups have a taller rise than my old one (14" vs 7") but it could still be an issue. And they start at $2K, not including installation.

Secondly, a pop-up downdraft would need to be installed behind a range, not under it as with a cook top. That means you'd lose the seating overhang behind the range. I think you'd be better off with an island hood, which means an added expensive of running ducting in the ceiling out to the exterior. We priced adding an island hood initially when were only considering a cosmetic update. Not cheap.

We ended up changing our lay-out to move the cook top to the perimeter,
gaining much needed space on each side of it. We now have 42" on one side and 22" on the other. I love it!
Plus, it's easier and cheaper to vent a cook top or range on an exterior
wall. That said, we did end up splurging on a statement hood. = ) But you can get a good hood for $1K or less, including a chimney style hood. And, as I wrote above, installation is much cheaper than it is for island venting.

Yes, I added an opening between DR and parlor. Separate rooms but with a connection to each other. You could either keep it as an open archway or install double pocket doors between the 2 spaces, allowing you to close the rooms off when you want to but without giving up floor space to swing doors.

Just for grins and giggles, I drew up an L with island lay-out with the wall between kitchen and DR removed and the tall kitchen windows replaced with counter height windows.

It's your kitchen, your home but I hope you give some more thought to replacing the kitchen windows and running cabs and counter along that right wall. It gives you the opportunity for a great lay-out with ample counter and storage space.