I'm late to this party, so please please forgive me if I'm suggesting stuff that doesn't jibe with your requirements and/or it's already been covered. Have you considered moving the opening to the dining room and opening up that wall a bit? Maybe if the wall was more open you'd eat in the dining room instead? Like this...

Also, in the above floor plan, you could put a window seat under your window with a small bistro table so you could still have casual eating space for twoish and some storage in the base:

Stylish Eat In Kitchen · More Info

I agree with what they posted. My wife knows that if you were to ask me what the most useless part of a house is, I would say the "breakfast nook". I know, lots of folks love it, but if you want to make the kitchen feel larger, you can either make a nice seating area with a smaller table like they show or, if you were me, I'd turn that window into the new location for the sink. Call me crazy, but if you were really going "all out" I'd look at the following (sorry.. do not see the rest of the house layout:

1 - Knock out the wall between the kitchen and the dining room or living room or whatever it is.

2 - Extend the counters for the kitchen to in front of that window. I'd LEAVE the window where it is, but make it standard window height. You would gain lower cabinet space, and then have the sink centered on that and still have a ton of light.

Then, you could always make a small island with a couple bar stools if you liked, but the openness of having those walls down and having a view from the sink would make that kitchen feel a LOT larger.

Again, just me.

Russ

Here is the house plan....drew one up and took a photo of it. Not to scale, but did my best to capture it. They put all the plumbing in the house on two walls...between the bathroom and kitchen, and between the bath shown and the master bath in the bedroom. Is it hard to change around plumbing if it has to go through all the floor joists? I was told because my finished basement is 7 feet, and was sheet rocked to save head room, plumbing is not as easy because the drain needs to slope. The main house drain where everything meets and goes out of the house, is again, in the same area in the basement between the kitchen and bathroom.

I went off to make a cake and forgot to send the below and most is already addressed, but I'm too lazy to redo, so FWIW... :)

Hi, Mattstephanie. I love older houses with older problems, and the in-the-middle-of-everything location seems quite nice specifically because it does mean your kitchen also functions as your family dining room as well as a busy highway between bedrooms, bathrooms, and family room.

Like others, I'm just wondering if all options have been explored for making your house and kitchen function better holistically, not just trying to minimize current problems in the kitchen to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars. My own approach would be to invest in creating a really good layout for kitchen and surrounding spaces, even if it meant economizing on cabinets, appliances and finishes. The cost of laminate over granite alone would move a lot of plumbing.

After all, all sparkly new kitchens become reminders of past styles before long. When that happens we'd better continue to be really pleased with the way the remodel works for our family in our house.

"The opening to the left of the sink goes into the main hallway (ranch house). Most traffic is in these two openings...to the basement, and into the hallway to the bedrooms and bathroom. The third opening near the range goes into the dining room, so that is infrequently used."

Regarding Michey1st's suggestion to switch the kitchen and dining spaces: "Awesome .....but will not work....that would land lock the kitchen....would need to walk through the living room or dining room to get to bedrooms or out of the house."

Well, if a seldom-used dining room were in the kitchen's central location, would walking through it to get to the bedrooms or out of the house have to be bad? Many people turn lonely dining rooms into busy library-dining, homework-dining, sitting or sunroom-dining rooms. Also entry halls. COULD your current central kitchen space become a multifunctioning family entry, central passage connecting all areas of the house, AND a dining room (with perhaps a drop-leaf table set against a wall ready to pull out and seat a dozen whenever needed)? The kitchen could be as open to this space as you wished, all degrees and devices would be on the table.

Or where the kitchen is now, could anything be gained by moving the hall door up the wall? Could it move toward the dining room and the dining room doorway closed off to become a pass-through over counter? Could part of the hall be coopted into the kitchen? The dining room door moved and to what benefit? Moving doors is easy. You just write a check. :)

These are likely impossible for reasons I'm not aware of, but if so, how else could you use this remodel to make the entire house work well for your family? Perhaps you could draw a floor plan that included only the exterior walls and supporting interior walls to muse over. Is that outside kitchen wall on the setback line or could it be pushed out, and what would putting a great kitchen work L over there, or ?, likely cost? This is the time to find out.

Regarding the designer's idea of replacing the table with a 24" cabinet with slab over, you might push the table against the window and put a 48 x 48" piece of cardboard over to help visualize it. (24" cabinet + 2(12" overhangs) by 4' long)

I don't know if this is possible (budget, window locations, etc.) but if you could....I would swap the kitchen and dining room.

Add a window seat (as Benje suggested) but have it in the dining room. That's a lovely feature, so why not make the most of it?

Then create another entrance from living room to new dining room. Now, all the doorways are in the dining room and you can easily move around the table.

In it's new location, the kitchen can now be an L-shape with an island or a U-shape. Or even a galley with island. Your choice :)

Lavender - I love that reorganization of the living space. Unless OP likes to keep formal areas, this could make an awesome great room concept. To take it one step further, you could change the door swing on the basement so it doesn't cover the opening to the living room when open.

I think any big changes in the floor plan will be too way above our budget. But they are very creative. I think the KD we have may not be creative enough. We are in NJ and labor costs are very high. Had an estimate of $4,500 just for wiring.

Could it be done in stages and would it add value to the house if you did switch things around? What about just opening up the wall between dining and kitchen? That alone would give you more options. Don't box yourself in. You need to really think outside the box and as others have said, sometimes picking something like laminate over a granite for now, to get a kitchen that actually functions is a better idea.

I know I'm late to the party, but is it possible to swap the sink and stove? It seems to me that having a larger cook area makes more sense for that "large" wall. It would also allow for the dishwasher to sit to the left of the sink and, if you utilize the upper cabinet above the DW, an easily reachable spot for grabbing dishes to set the table in the dining room.

Edited to add:
This is assuming there no room in the budget for opening walls. Otherwise, I'm with lavender_lass and benjesbride. Opening the wall between kitchen and dining room would work wonders.

I will need to get a plumber in to inquire about the sink and stove swap. I think that would be the least costly option. Husband said water supply lines are easy, but the drain will be the challenge.

After planning and then buying our Ikea cabinets yesterday, I kind of miss playing with the online planning tool so I played around with your kitchen. Here are some pics.

All those doors through your kitchen really have a negative impact on function and good flow. I would want to make things as contiguous as possible and think it should be fairly easy to make a nice U-shaped work space by changing the door locations.

I didn't spend anytime futzing around with appliance layout and I know I didn't account for the little window alcove appropriately. I just wanted you to visualize how changing the doors keeps traffic out of the work zones and could make for a much more pleasant space. Of course, this would also require eating in the dining room. You could open up that dining room wall more if you wanted. I just wanted to give you an idea of a different traffic flow and, if you like the idea, the details of appliance and cabinet layout can be tweaked to fit the space correctly.

Even if either of those walls are load-bearing, a small opening for a wide door won't require much work and just requires a header. For just a door, this should not be a big expense.

I haven't finished reading the thread yet. But I had to comment on Benjesbride post. I am going to print it out. This is very valuable advice.

If you like Funky Campers advice I can give an example of opening a wall that my friend did.

out of curiosity. Did it take a long time to save for this remodel? I ask because if you save for another 18 months...will you be able to open the wall and change drains. It really does create a better floor and flow plan to move the kitchen. I understand what it is like to hate your kitchen. But if you could actually sit down and run the numbers. How many more options do you end up with?

You guys have been so generous with your comments !! You certainly made me stop and rethink everything. I am lucky to have have asked a simple question originally about a 12" cabinet. Impressed how creative everyone is and how you took plans and tweaked them around.

I love all of the creative ideas too but they call for serious structural $$$ (unless you can do it yourself). When I posted my kitchen I realized that no one responding would be paying for the changes and that while the house would be my home for 10 years, it was not my "forever home" and I just didn't want to spend that much money (and I really wanted the kitchen separate from the dining room, the great room trend is getting old)....So reality check....

Leave all windows and doors in place.

Move the sink and DW to the cellar door wall (with the DW located by the cellar door, the sink to its left). Check what happens to your walkway when the DW door is open, will it work?

Toss the double oven that you are not using and in it its place put an 18" wide lower only cabinet, move the range next to the new lower cabinet to maximize the space between sink and range and still have landing areas on both sides of the sink and range.

Put a hood over the range no uppers on its left.

Redo lower cabinets between sink and range using drawers if possible.

Put the fridge on the wall where the sink was and turn the old sink wall into fridge plus floor to ceiling storage...where are the washer dryer? If in the basement consider adding a compact stackable set here (you would already have the water) and moving not immediately necessary storage to the basement.

Love the banquette idea, the table and chairs just take up too much space.

Getting the double ovens and fridge out of their current location will really help make that side feel like less of a pit. You also need to improve your lighting as that darkness makes the entire space dreary....

Even leaving doors and windows in place...where the money gets ugly is if you need a new service panel and/or rewire to move/add the lights, move the hood and fridge and/or you need to replumb more of the house than just the sink to move the sink.

practigal has some very valid points about budget considerations. This leads me back to what I originally said about swapping the stove and sink locations in your "new" design. Since I don't know your personal real-world usage habits, I can only make suggestions based on general assumptions.

To wit; in the current proposed layout, should you want a glass of juice from the fridge you will get in the way of whoever is cooking at the stove. Or, if you are cooking at the stove you don't have a "safe" place to put hot plates/food except to the right in a hard to reach corner, or worse, to the left next to a traffic lane to the dining room. Swapping the sink and stove alleviates these, and other, possible issues - most likely without breaking the bank. Sure, getting that juice might get in the way of someone doing the dishes, but to me, that's a lot better than jostling someone working with hot oil and fire.

Just looked over your real-world photos again and had a thought. How wide is that space between the window and the dining room doorway? Would a freestanding fridge fit there?

Geekman - There is nothing good about this room...the one wall is only 1'-2" so it would stick out into the notch in a weird way.

Practigal - Thanks, good point about reality check. That is what keeps me up at night, how much investment makes sense. The house is nothing fancy, and was built in an economy way (1963). I am sure they put the sink at its current location to keep all the plumbing on one wall sharing with the adjacent bathroom.

I totally agree with practigal concerning watching what you spend and keeping it to reasonable level you are comfortable with. I'm the gal re-using old cabinets and supplementing with used cabinets and other cost-saving measures to keep my remodel as inexpensive as possible. Of course, we are also doing it all DIY so that is a big savings right there. Do you have any DIY skills?

I wish there was a diagram of her suggestions as I'm not capable of visualizing it. If that is workable and gives you decent function, great. If not, then it is money ill-spent, imho. For me, any kitchen that has traffic going through the work zones needs to have that fixed to make it worth spending more money on making it pretty. I realize others may not feel the same way and that's OK. It's your kitchen.

If you like the idea of changing some doors to create a better flow, I would at least get an estimate on the work before deciding. And, of course, if you can do some or all of the work yourself, the cost of materials isn't much. Remember, you would need to know how to create a doorway properly as well as how to fill in the old doorway.

I'm guessing that the wall between kitchen/living room is load bearing and that the wall between kitchen/dining is not. If you want to avoid the slight extra expense for the header that would need to be placed in an opening in a load bearing wall, and for a door-sized opening it would be slight, you could always eliminate the door to the living room and go through the dining room to the living room.

Just some random thoughts.

Would something like this work?

Extending the gas line shouldn't cost much as long as there is access in the basement or crawl space. The only structural change I made was widening the door to the dining room so that it feels closer making you more likely to want to use it and for better visual connection between the two rooms. Your locale would need to allow ranges/hoods in front of windows. I think it's quite attractive but the windows can't open. If yours do, you would need to change them. At least, with this plan, most of the work is done on the two adjoining walls and then traffic could walk closer to the fridge wall keeping people a bit out of the work zones.

ETA - if the house is "nothing fancy" with humble finishes, stay that with in your kitchen. Laminate is great. There are very inexpensive butcher block options out there, particularly if you're willing to finish them yourselves. Your cabinets should also be simple. Crown moldings, stone counters, and other more expensive finishes would look out of place in your humble home. And, FWIW, I love humble finishes. I'm going that route myself because it also suits my home better and I'm very happy with that.

If you are going to reno anyway, I'd change that big window to something not as tall and do a run of cabinets underneath it (so raise the sill up to 36" by getting a smaller window). Skip the uppers on that cabinet run. Put the sink looking outside.

I would keep it simple. The only structural change I would do would be to open up the kitchen to the dining room and use the dining table to eat at. I did that in my first house and it worked fine. Keep the kitchen just for preparing meals and forget trying to eat in the kitchen. It's too small for that. Opening up a wall by 12" will make a difference in how it feels, but for very little cost.

I would make the dining room opening 42". That would leave you 24 1/2" on the wall closer to the window. I would put a 24" cabinet there with open shelves and put your coffee machine and microwave in the cabinet. This way they are both off of your countertops and are not taking away from storage in your work zone.

Then I'd get rid of the soffits and run the cabinets up to the ceiling. That will give you more storage.

I would move the sink and DW down so the DW is right at the wall. This will give you more space to the left for prepping and since you will no longer have a table in the kitchen there is no longer the worry about bumping into the chairs when the DW is open.

Then with the new stove and the removal of the ovens you'll have more counter space on the range wall. Have an 18" counter to the left of the stove and that will give you a longer run between the refrigerator and the stove.

I would make sure most of the cabinets are drawers for more storage.

Under the windows I'd put built ins for little used appliances and/or cookbooks and make it into a window seat on top so friends can sit and talk with you while you cook. You can even put in bookshelves on either side of the windows for even more storage or for display.

Once you open up the kitchen to the dining room and take out the table, it will feel much larger. I'd then probably get a small, moveable "island" cart that you can use as extra space for cutting veggies, or storing some stuff.

If your door to the basement is not used frequently, I would consider changing the door to a pocket door there so you could then have the cabinets come up right to the edge of the door jamb.

I think if you make these changes, pick light or white cabinets, and a light counter you'll feel much better about your kitchen. Remember, drawers instead of doors on lower cabinets. A super susan in the corner and add lots of under cabinet lighting and lighting above.

Not sure if this will help, but what about making the DR door a pass through with a rolling cart. Then when you need to you just pull the cart into or out of place. That's what we have for the entrance to our deck. It works for us and really makes the kitchen much more functional. The cart could even be in the seldom used DR.

Doggonit, if you lived around Austin, I'd come knock that wall down and frame it all up for ya! lol

I could do that in a weekend ;)

What is the window sill height?

Window sill height is a bit below the table height, around 30 inches. The window was just replaced a year or so ago.

Played around with HomeStyler to illustrate my thoughts on swapping the sink and stove. I also mocked up an option where you keep the sink in its current position should moving the drain line be too costly. It's only my opinion, but I feel that keeping the fridge and sink closer together makes for a more functional, and safer, kitchen.

Please ignore scale, Homestyler has limited options for some items. so I had to just roll with it. :-)

I don't think you need to change the window. That would be a big expense and I don't think you'll gain much more function than if you scoot the dining room opening over and moved the sink to that dining room wall.

Do you need to keep the door to the basement? Would you consider something like this?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/d6/28/53/d628539d7c9f3277e8d22ba514b3f5f8.jpg

Or... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f7/61/cf/f761cffa7211467eac4476e62a1b3c09.jpg

Unfortunately, the basement stairway ceiling is shared with the stairs going to the attic. It is not nicely opened up but has a sloped ceiling. It is not nice at all, but I love that opened stair look in your photos. It is like a cavern...nothing nice.

Hell.. I'd take those darn stairs out and install me one of those chairs that lowers you down..into my batcave. ..just sayin ;)

(p.s. joking.. I would not do it.. I would just totally THINK about doing it.. lol)

R

How about swinging cafe doors at the top of the stairs? Then the door itself would be less of an intrusion, but the "nothing nice" stairway would be hidden.

Stephanie, have you thought about eating all your meals in the dining room? It sure seems like the kitchen table is the cause of many problems here.

May need to consider the dining room. It will pain me to see the formal dining room deteriorate (oriental carpet and 18th century style mahogany table). Weeping in advance.

Care to share the dimensions and sill heights of the dining room?

Why? We ate at my mother's antique dining table every single day for dinner. We didn't have a table in the kitchen. Just a eat in bar.

Each of her 4 children have manners and I can promise...we didn't ruin her table. She still uses it.

I'd roll up the rug and put down an inexpensive one, and get a protective cover for the table. It's a shame to have nice things and not use them - and to let them prevent you from using your home to its fullest.

I refinished our dining table last summer, and where I always had a tablecloth on it before to hide its ugliness, now I hate to cover up its beauty. My family has gotten very good at using placemats and trivets on the table, and I don't stress about it any more.

Designer had this idea. On the fence with it ???? The nook area is 2 feet deep, so their would be three 33 inch cabinets that would be 12 inches deep. Then install a 24 inch top of granite/quartz (12 inch overhang for legs). I mocked up a picture cutting and pasting and drawing. The height of the cabinet would be 28.5 inches, adding in the 1.5 top, would bring it to normal seating height of 30 inches.

Downsides are the following:

You face outside

The height would cover up some of the window bottom, the picture shows how it would land, would cover up the bottom sash. I would need to remove the window sill and install the cabinets flush to the wall. There is room so the window would properly open/close. New window casing molding would be shorted and installed so it lands on top of the granite/quartz.

Upsides are the following:

Storage underneath

Gets rid of a table

Would fit 4 chairs comfortably

Can double as a layout area during parties?

Do you like, dislike, or hate ???

Welcome back!

I'm sorry, but a 12" overhang is ridiculous for a 30" counter height and makes me question your designer. Have you tried that? Unless a person has really short femurs, you need at least 18" of overhang

Since you only have 12" of depth for an overhang, 12 inches is considered acceptable for a bar height (42") counter. Which would look ridiculous in your lovely bump out space, but I wanted to note that as being the functional standard.

I still like the idea of a window seat with a bistro table and eating meals in the dining room. It looks like you might have a bit of space on the sides for cabinets to provide a place to set a drink like this:

Willian Residence · More Info

Personally, I would do the window seat (storage underneath) with a cafe table as Benje suggested a while back before I would do that bar at the window idea. It seems out of place and unfriendly. I have been in coffee shops with that arrangement and it is always people alone with their book siting there. Not very conducive to conversation or engaging with what is happening in the room.

ha! I see Benje edited to add the idea of the window seat again! Xposting while I was writing. Nice pic, too.

Am I correct in thinking you have a cozy, modestly sized home? One of the things S. Suzanka talks about in her Not So Big House books is that we should actively live in every room of our home. Reading her book really had me reevaluating my thinking about our formal, untouched spaces: our guest room that was only used once a year. Our dining room that we hardly ever used. All that space going to waste while I tried to cram ten pounds of stuff into a five pound bag in the rest of the house. ;-)

There are ways you can protect your dining room treasures while still enjoying them. Maybe revisit the idea of using that space?

I think you all are right, maybe I need to look for another designer. Now I am concerned, why they would not raise the issue of a 12" overhang being too short.

I did decide to move the one doorway by the range over some in order to move the range from being crammed into the corner. This also allowed me to add a 12" pull out base cabinet spice rack pantry unit. And it allowed larger wall cabinets on either side of the range as well as making the cabinets on the left and right equally sized. We had a plumber in to review your suggestions of moving the sink/range around. And as expected it became cost prohibitive. My husband as he told me was correct, because the way the joists ran, the drain would need to run below the joists which would require adding a soffit in the already low ceiling basement. There was no good solution.

**ETA: I'm really feeling for you with this project. I know how exciting it is to give yourself the green light for an investment like this and then meet obstacles along the way. Also, if I remember correctly, you came here with a near-complete plan with only a simple question about a 12" cabinet? I could be wrong. At any rate, your kitchen is going to be great and like many here who can testify you'll be glad you refined your plan via GW.***

Thanks for letting us know about the plumbing. In that case... I know you just put a new window in your kitchen, but I really believe you're not going to optimize your space unless you get the sink and range together without traffic between them.

I skimmed the thread and I didn't see anyone mentioned this before. I suggest you consider moving the range to the alcove with windows on either side. You could add counter seating on the dining room side, but only if the dining room is at the very least 11 feet across and no furniture besides a table and chairs.

matthewstephanie how is your project going?

I got an estimate on window seat cabinets. Those are about 2,700 extra including tax. Kind of pricey. I am planning on going to look for another designer. I am worried about my designer based upon all the great feedback received. Will put the brakes on for now and regroup. The process seems to take forever. They told me a 10 week lead time for delivery which puts me into November now, and holiday season.

Thanks for the update!

gardenweb and IKEA are a winning combination worth considering if you haven't already. We're getting ready to install our 2nd IKEA kitchen now.

I looked back in my info and although there are several variables to pricing, my most recent drawing above shows about $7000 worth of IKEA cabinets with Bodbyn gray doors and drawer fronts. All drawer base cabinets, full extention, soft close drawers. And you can pickI them up same day or have them delivered soon. Just food for thought.

Please keep us posted and let us know if you need help.