Morning afternoon Straw,

I'm reposting your very helpful reply for top dressing roses here so that blackspot thread can focus in on blackspot, if that's ok.

STRAWCHICAGO WROTE:

I thought about what's best on top for pots OUTDOOR in hot sun like Hawaii, that would dry out fast on top, so fungal spores can't germinate, and insect-larvae can't thrive. At the same time, it should retain moisture below as well, and won't float when water dumped on top. Some choices:

1. Shredded newspaper, cheap & stay put, and keep the below soil moist. There's the burrito method when cutttings are wrapped in moist paper to induce rooting. Plus newspaper use a soy-based ink, so that acts as a fertilizer.
2. Alfalfa hay, cheap here in Chicagoland, at $8 per large bale. The nutrients work wonder to promote lush & green & healthy leaves, but it's messy. When I piled up alfalfa hay around rose bushes, it looks like a giant bird nest. Great during hot & sunny weather, but awful when it rained. Plus that mess hatch larvae of rose-slugs really well. Pretty good with black spots, since the nutrients is excellent for fast re-growth of leaves. This stuff takes forever to break down, at least 2 years.
3. Straw, the yellowish-paper shreds ... looks good. Straw, the Bale-plant-fiber for Halloween decoration ... A rose-grower in Italy put straw in the hole for her bare-root-rose, and it works really well.

The WORST possible topping is peat-moss based potting soil like MiracleGro. Countless rootings and rose-seeds rotted in that medium. Even when I mixed in 1/2 perlite, the surface of the soil gets whitish mold when winterized in my dark garage. I rooted roses before using composted-pine based potting soil, and zero mold whatsoever, since it's fast-draining, and the tannins in the pine-bark is a fungicide.

Vintage Garden band is topped with gritty red-lava-rock for nutrients. Heirloom band is topped with perlite, and I am NOT impressed with their roots: 2 Jude the Obscure from them died through my winter. Roses Unlimited uses a fluffy composted-pine based potting soil, with these shiny-flat-black pieces. Burlington nursery used fluffy & greenish sphagnum moss (light & dries out fast, yet retains moisture below) ... that stuff is expensive, so she switched to pine & peatmoss, a decline in quality.

My conclusion: Sphagnum moss would be best for topping: light & dry out fast on the surface plus cooling effect. Red-lava-rock is good, if it's in smaller size that break down fast for nutrients.

Thank you, msgirl, for starting this thread to organize info. about organic fertilizer. Regarding POTASSIUM, I repost the info. which I wrote on July 9, 2014:

There's an agriculture report for soy-bean crop, where the use of sulfate of potash and lime pellets BEAT the yield of fungicide & chemical fertilizer. Below link also showed DOUBLE hay production with 1/3 gallon of kelp & sulfate of potash and 1/2 gallon of soluble bone meal.

It's similar to my brewing tea under hot sun with Pennington Alaska NPK 4-6-6 with alfalfa meal, fish bone meal, sulfate of potash, and kelp meal. I'm going to reduce the sulfate of potash I use, since I don't like cluster blooming, hard to cut for the vase, and each bloom is smaller. Below is Summer Samba last year, when it was fertilized with molasses and gypsum, and LESS sulfate of potash, resulting in one bloom per branch and bigger bloom:

Here is a link that might be useful: Two-fold increase in hay production with natural fertilizers

Also Seaweed from CA using fish emulsion for her roses in pots, and chicken manure & gypsum for her roses in the ground:

Seaweed posted on July 11, 2014:

I use fish emulsion on my roses. Lovely day thanks to these cut today, July 11:

Roses from the top L2R: Dream come True, Red Masterpiece, Red Olympiad, Tournament of Roses, Anna's Promise, Gardenia, Austin C R Mackintosh, Heirloom, Sharifa Asma, Princess de Monaco, and Chrysler Imperial.

I really like the orange colored roses Straw! All are very nice!

Hi Jim: Yes, I love orange rose, that's why I bought Bronze star for Roses Unlimited 1/2 price sale. From Seaweed's above pic., I like her Heirloom (purple) and her Pirncess de Monaco. Chrysler Imperial always smell blah at the rose park, can't compared to Firefighter in my clay.

I re-post the info. about phosphorus here, to save folks from the experiments that failed on me. My biggest & most healthy tomato among 12 is the one with the most gypsum mixed with clay.. That has dark-green leaves, lots of fruits. Encap-dry-compost (made from cow-manure) stunted my Thai Basil. That Basil is 1/4 the size, plus it has tons of blooms. I DON'T WANT BLOOMS on Basil, I WANT LEAVES. I didn't put compost on my basil, it just happened to be planted in a hole previously occupied by a rose, that was topdressed with Encap NPK (1- 0.5 - 0.5) last years. That rose was a B.S. fest, so I dug it up.

Also last year I spent hours SCRAPING OFF bagged cow manure (New Life brand) off from my 4 roses .. since they broke out in black spots RIGHT AFTER the cow-manure top-dressing. These 4 roses were 100% clean for the past 3 years. The problem with cow manure is the salt, high phosphorus (added to the feed), plus the antibiotics which kill all beneficial bacteria that suppress fungal spores.

Phosphorus via compost, once applied, can't go away. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it doesn't move, and doesn't get leached out like nitrogen (10 mobility) or potassium (3 mobility). Last year experience with high-phosphorus Milorganite (sewage sludge at 5-2-0) was DISASTER for my lawn ... weeds bore flowers, and spread like crazy. Plus that sewage sludge was so sticky that it broke my lawn-spreader, I had to buy a new one ($40) at Ace Hardware .. then I bought a high-nitrogen, zero phosphorus lawn-fertilizer (without weed-killer) ... and that worked great: less weeds, and thicker & lush lawn.

Here's a picture of high-phosphorus and salt burn on La Reine rose. In that planting hole, I ran out of cracked corn & also out of red-lava, so I put gypsum, plus lots of Encap-dry-compost (made of cow manure) ... that rose became stunt (1/4 the height of other roses). But it bloomed well, about 10 blooms for a tiny bush. After blooming, it came down with severe black spots and DROPPED ALL ITS LEAVES. That's the only rose in my garden that's acting weird. I dug it up, the drainage is excellent, just too much compost, thus high phosphorus. Picture taken at the start of blooming. Now end of blooming, lost all leaves due to BS:

What I did wrong was to put Encap-compost-granules IN THE HOLE. it's made out dry-cow manure & leaves, with NPK is 1- 0.5 - 0.5. Nitrogen mobility is a 10, it gets leached out easily in that excellent-drainage spot. Potassium mobility is a 3, it moves down somewhat. But phosphorus mobility is a 1, it stays put, and doesn't move much in my clay. So that hole leached out nitrogen, decent potassium, and way-too much phosphorus. For that reason, phosphorus should be supplied at 1/2 ratio of potassium, since it doesn't get leached out easily.

This offers a better perspective: http://www.ehow.com/info_7791955_compost-phosphorus.html

Because different ingredients with different levels of phosphorus can all end up as compost, the amounts of phosphorus present in compost varies. "Rodale's Ultimate Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening" indicates that commercially available compost tends to include 1 percent phosphorus. Homemade compost may contain between 0.5 and 4 percent phosphorus, depending on the ingredients used to produce the compost.

• Earthworm castings -- those small mounds of dark soil you see near earthworm burrows in the garden -- free up phosphorus for plants to use.

Organic Phosphorus Sources

• When you consider that superphosphates -- commonly used to boost phosphorus levels in the soil -- contain between 20 and 46 percent phosphorus, the maximum 4 percent found in compost seems rather paltry. .. Bone meal provides about 11 percent phosphorus, and rock phosphate provides about 3 percent. Rabbit, chicken and duck manure, added to compost, will increase phosphorus levels better than any other livestock manures.

**** From StrawChicago: I also topped La Reine with chicken manure, so that's a double-overkill on phosphorus. Lesson well-learned: compost and manure should be on top, rather than in the planting hole. The nearby rose park's using high-phosphorus fertilizer backfired: that stunted Austin rose Tamora, and scorched the entire bed. Tamora has Rugosa-parentage (hates fertilizer). But their high-phosphorus regime worked well with landscape roses like Carefree Celebration, Julia Child, and Knock-outs. Their Drift roses also had tons of blooms. Landscape roses with zillion of blooms can handle high-phosphorus better than Austin roses, which has many petals & bigger petals.

Found a bag of really horrid smelling chicken manure I purchased a month ago, so now have to figure out what additives and procedure for old potted roses:

Pelletized lime

chicken manure

Lava rock

Orchid Bark

coconut coir (have not hydrated yet)

So landscape and shrub roses that produce a lot benefit from a phosphorus infusion but the other roses generally prefer less correct, I don't have any landscape ones, most are hybrid teas so I guess it would probably be best not to use it? It does not smell great at all.

msgirl: The reason why landscape and shrub roses benefit from high-phosphorus (manure or chemical) is those roses CAN TAKE SALT well. The late rosarian Karl Bapst, zone 5a, noted that his Rainbow Knockouts were planted next to the road, and get tons of salt (from de-icing the road) .. yet that didn't hurt them. My zone is 5a, and in winter we get ungodly amount of salt sprayed on the curb, to the point that the grass got sick in that area.

I would put the HARDEST to dissolve additive AT THE BOTTOM, so Lava rock needs to go at the bottom, so it can stay moist and dissolve better. I would put coco-coir ON TOP of lava-rock, to keep lava-rock wet. See below link on orchid bark, there are different sizes, the below stated "Bark, like other organic materials, tends to make a potting mix slightly acidic."

http://www.orchid-care-tips.com/orchid-bark.html

I would put acidic orchid bark ON TOP of pelletized lime. Lime needs acids like rain (pH 5.6) to be broken down to a form usable by plants. Chicken manure burns the most, highest in salt, highest in phosphorus would be AT THE TOPMOST, since it would stink mighty if it's buried under any layers. Putting chicken manure in the planting hole is a NO-NO, I'm NOT impressed with Rose-Tone in the pot, nor Tomato-Tone in my clay ... since both of them have bone meal and chicken manure ... too hot to be in direct-contact with roots below ground.

I re-post the info. which I posted on October of 2013:

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/2134600/fertilizing-your-success-and-why-organics?n=21

Here's the ingredients in Lilly Miller for roses: Chicken manure, alfalfa meal, ammonium sulfate, ammonium phosphate, sulfate of potash, calcium and sodium borate, Ferrous, Manganese and zinc oxides, sodium molybdate. NPK 5-8-4, with 4% calcium, 4% sulfur, and 0.1% iron.

Here's the ingredients in RoseTone: Feather meal, chicken manure, cocoa meal, bone meal, aflafa meal, green sand, humates, sulfate of potash, plus beneficial bacteria. NPK 4-3-2. Personally I think Epsoma Tomatoe tone at NPK 3-4-6 is better for roses: more of potassium via greensand, plus more phosphorus for alkaline clay.

Here's an excerpt from the below site "Poultry manure (chicken in particular) is the richest animal manure in N-P-K. Chicken manure is considered "hot" and must be composted before adding it to the garden. Otherwise, it will burn any plants it comes in contact with."

http://www.plantea.com/manure.htm

According to NC University, chicken manure has highest nutrients among manures: NPK 1.6 / 1.8 / 2.0 for dry chicken manure, and NPK of 0.9 / 0.5 / 0.5 for fresh chicken manure, vs. horse manure at 0.6 /0.3 /0.5

I get way-more yields on my fruit trees with Lilly Miller NPK 10-5-4 with chicken manure. My fruit trees were stingy with chemical NPK 10-10-10.

Here's info. on trace elements of manures by University of Wisconsin:

"Average concentrations for 87 dairy, 10 swine and 24 poultry manure samples are in Table 1. Swine and poultry manure contained similar amounts of Zn (zinc), Cu (Copper) and Mn (Manganese) and was approximately 10-100 times higher than in dairy manure ... Swine and poultry manure also contained about 10 times more Selenium than Dairy."

Manganese is least available in my alkaline clay, rather than iron. Chicken manure turned a multiflora rose from bronzy-yellow chlorosis into dark-green and lots of blooms. Zinc, copper, and selenium are strong anti-fungal agents.

Here is a link that might be useful: University of Wisconsin and trace elements in manures

momscottagegarden posted the below:
Soil test results came today!

Next to house I need phosphorus for my roses, they have very little! It did show high calcium and 6.5 ph! I have been working on this area for over a year.

Next to house Where my hydrangeas are ph 7.5 high in calcium, low potassium, low phosphorus. just started working in this area

Another place where I wanted to put roses is low on phosphorus and potassium, and has a 5.7 ph, but high in calcium and zinc.

My yard is low in potassium, and phosphorus. I didn't dig very deep the ground was hard, maybe that is why the 5.4 and 5.7 in the yard samples. I wonder why the ph is so high right beside the house but low in the yard?

Everywhere shows low potassium except the 1 rose bed, which is barely normal. Calcium mag and zinc normal everwhere.

Now I need ideas on potassium, and phosphorus, that are not so expensive highest phosphorus is where the roses are, twice that of other areas. So I need to soften low ph and high ph soil. I assume low organic matter. I am considering the tillage radishes, but one of the comments said they stink.

I was thinking bone meal if I can find a big 50 pound bag. If I used lime for the ph, that would make the calcium super high? Kelp meal or green sand is fine for small areas, but not large areas. I can get a scoop of green sand mixed with mushroom compost for about $30 but that could only be used in a small area. momscottagegarden

*** From StrawChicago: Bone meal has 11% phosphorus and 24% calcium, NPK 3-15-0. Bone meal cannot be utilized if the pH is over 7. Go easy on bone meal since it's high in calcium. Fish-bone meal has more phosphorus, NPK ranges from 3-15-0 to 4-20-0. But it stinks mighty. A review in Amazon: someone applied that stuff, and the neighbor's girl could not sleep since it reeks. Phosphorus mobility is a 1, it stays put where applied .. best at the bottom of the hole, or mixed thoroughly INSIDE the planting hole so the roots can access it. One study showed that phosphorus only moved 1 inch down per year, if applied at the surface. Advantage of bone meal is: it's a slow-released phosphorus, lasting for up to 3 years.

Kelp, or Seaweed has NPK of 1-0-4, plus high in salt & trace elements. Mills' Magic bi-weekly would result in salt-accumulation, due to its having sewage sludge (Milorganite). Roses are very sensitive to salt. I induced mildew on a few roses in pots testing Milorganite. Years of using alfalfa: no problems. Then I switched to Alaska-pellets (with alfalfa, fish-bone meal, and kelp) ... roses bloom well, but NOT as healthy as alfalfa alone .. from the salt in kelp.

Fish-meal has NPK of 10-6-2. I was impressed with Prickles (Bailey) pic. of Young Lycidas with 150+ blooms in a pot ... he fertilized with salmon bits and shrimp shells. So I called the feed store, and they told me it's $34 for a 25 lb. bag of fish-meal. I might test that in the future, if I can get a smaller amount. http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/234.html

Red-lava-rock at pH 8.2 is much better than lime to raise the pH, plus red-lava-rock is high in potassium, iron, and all trace elements. Cocoa mulch is also high in potassium. I get better result in blooming with cocoa mulch (pH 5.4) since my soil pH is 7.7. Here's the composition of cocoa mulch, pH from 5.4 to 5.8, NPK 2.5 - 1 - 3 (highest in potassium), plus 43% carbon. Ratios in mg/100g: 1000 phosphorus, 3251 potassium, 575 calcium, 488 magnesium, 40 iron, 9 manganese, 11 zinc, 3.5 copper, plus trace elements.

Cottagegarden: If you don't have many roses to plant, and if your roses are already in the ground, SOLUBLE phosphorus is the best choice. SOLUBLE chemical phosphorus like MG-more-bloom is OK if used in acidic soil, but it crystallizes in my alkaline clay. See below link of Australian Agricultural field study that showed APP (ammonium polyphosphate in fluid form) surpasses granular phosphorus. There's another Australian study that showed that the use of granular phosphorus over a span of 5 years did not increase their wheat yield much. Phosphorus stay put where applied, and it moves down only as SOLUBLE.

Here is a link that might be useful: APP fluid fertililzer surpasses granular phosphorus

I had tested cow-manure, both bagged, and dry form, and I'm VERY DISAPPOINTED with its salt, its antibiotics, plus roses breaking out in fungal disease. Cow-manure isn't that great for my tomatoes either. They put lime in cow manure to deodorize, so it's both high pH, and high in calcium. I haven't tested fish-meal at NPK 10-6-2, but I tested chicken manure NPK 5-3-2, that's decent phosphorus for blooming, but potassium of 2 IS NOT ENOUGH.

Phosphorus is needed in VERY SMALL amount, since you don't lose much ... it stays put in the soil. What's lost the most in watering is potassium, then nitrogen. I get tons of blooms just by using chicken manure for phosphorus, and add high-potassium such as cocoa mulch (for my alkaline clay) or red-lava-rock (if your soil is acidic).

A bit puzzled by cottagegarden's high-calcium in all areas: next to house (pH 6.5), next to house with pink hydrangea (pH 7.5), in the yard (pH 5.7). The key is: "I didn't dig very deep since the ground was hard." Calcium hydroxide (hydrated lime) in tap water is known to harden soil. Hydrated lime is added by municipals to prevent pipes from corroding, plus to deodorize tap water, thus raising tap water's pH. If you are in a hot and dry spell, calcium hydroxide in tap water is VERY UNSTABLE, and binds immediately with phosphorus and potassium, making them less available. That's why all areas show high calcium, and deficient in phosphorus & potassium.

But if you dig deep PAST the surface soil tainted with tap water, it will show the true nature of your soil, at root zone. I'm next to a limestone quarry, my clay is rock-hard when dry. When I took 1 cup of soil to send for testing, I got from areas that was NOT watered with tap-water. The result came back: barely adequate in calcium, and EarthCo. informed that I need to apply gypsum (calcium sulfate). Bluegirl in TX has such high-calcium soil that the soil is whitish. Both Bluegirl and I notice that when we apply gypsum (has 17% sulfur) to rock-hard-clay, it's so much easier to dig. I tried full-strength vinegar to soften my clay .. that took many weeks. Same with garden-sulfur: took many weeks. But gypsum works immediately, within hours. That's why earthworms hate gypsum, and I only apply gypsum to the BOTTOM of the hole, where it's rock-hard clay.

Granular gypsum is very powerful to soften hard-stuff. I had this evergreen tree which I dug out, but the woody root remained. I could not dig into that tree-stump, so I sprinkled gypsum. A week later, that place was soft & loamy. Gypsum is best applied the year before, rather right at planting time.

Here's the ingredients in Mills Magic Rose mix: alfalfa meal, fish meal, steamed bone meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, activated sludge, and an organic compost activator. NPK 6-5-1. The 1st two ingredients of alfalfa meal and fish meal are OK. It's the bone meal, cottonseed meal, activated sewage sludge (Milorganite) that I have problems with. Bone meal is high in calcium & phosphorus, need pH below 7 to be utilized. Cottonseed is a pesticides-laden crop. I already tested Milorganite both on my lawn and on my roses ... the growth and health can't be compared with alfalfa meal.

Mills Magic Rose Mix: high nitrogen & phosphorus with NPK 6-5-1 should be used ONCE in spring and ONCE in fall, when there's plenty of rain to move phosphorus down. The instruction on the dried-chicken-manure NPK 5-3-2 said to use it ONCE in the spring. Yes, I researched on that, and the nitrogen in chicken-manure is slow-released to one-year. That's why when the temp. hit 80 degree, I stop all chicken-manure, and use low-salt organics like alfalfa, cocoa mulch, or red-lava-rocks.

Fish-meal NPK is 10-6-2, best to used in rainy season when there's water to move down phosphorus and to leach out excess nitrogen. Prickles (Bailey) Young Lycidas rose was impressive in spring with 150+ buds in a pot, but frequent application of high nitrogen (at 10) can result in messy growth. See below his Young Lycidas in October:

prickles(Los Angeles, CA) Don't laugh--because it's a losing battle and I'm getting lazy--YL in Oct.

*** From StrawChicago, all my Austin roses looked like the above when I applied NPK of 10-5-4 more than once during the year, for in-ground roses. That's why I use high nitrogen of ten only ONCE in the spring (roses are winter-killed to 4 to 6 inches). Then afterwards low-nitrogen of cocoa mulch NPK 2.5 - 1 -3. With that approach, I don't have to prune roses, since they are always short.

For hot & dry summer, SOLUBLE sulfate of potash and gypsum (2 to 1 ratio) work well in neutralizing alkaline tap-water. The best result was fertilizing with SOLUBLE MiracleGro Bloom Booster NPK 10-52-10 once every 2 weeks. I use that since it has more chelated trace-elements than the SOLULBE MG NPK of 18-24-16, recommended 7 to 14 days.

I also gave it twice a week SOLUBLE sulfate of potash & gypsum to lower my tap water at pH 8.6. Below is 7-month old Yves-seedling (grown from a rose-seed) fertilized with that approach, since it's a red-rose, the extra chelated-iron in the Bloom-Booster NPK 10-52-10 helped:

Cantigny rose park uses a similar approach for their landscape roses in the ground. Early spring, I saw tons of whitish granular gypsum scattered evenly through the entire rose bed, plus blue granules of high-phosphorus fertilizer. It worked well for their landscape roses, but NOT for their Austin roses (demand more potassium). Below is one of Cantigny's landscape rose, fertilized with that approach. They have alkaline soil & tap water like mine, but their top soil is soft & loamy due to application of granular gypsum:

Below is an experiment that failed that summer. I tested topping pots with Milorganite (sewage sludge) ... instead of blooming, roses broke out in black spots. So I tested Encap dry cow manure on Jude the Obscure, and that got worse: mildew thanks to the salt in manure and sewage sludge. Very sick looking plant, I did not use any soluble fertilizer, no blooms either. Soluble fertilizer is best for pots, since pots don't have the soil bacteria to break down granular. Even then Milorganite and Encap-cow-manure both failed miserably for roses in the ground.

Straw, no watering in the yard with tap water where samples were taken, no watering the yard at all. I will have my husband dig a hole and take another sample. By the house where thee hydrangeas are, then where the roses are we did have soil from a big hole, so those were accurate. Where the neighborhood was built used to be a cow pasture, I am fairly certain they took off topsoil and buried construction waste.

Hi cottagegarden: Thank you for informing me. Construction waste are calcium-based: concrete is made out of calcium oxide, and drywall plaster is made of hydrated lime. The reason why my heavy clay at pH 7.7 is barely adequate in calcium, yet rock-hard is: my soil is exceedingly high in magnesium. Magnesium oxide is used in making Portland cement. Magnesium oxide is what makes clay sticky, and it's also a strong anti-fungal. Cracked-corn at pH 4 will be best for your pink hydrangea area at pH 7.5.

Whole-grain corn profile: 39% magnesium, 23% iron, 29% phosphorus, 10% potassium, 30% manganese, 37% selenium, 12% copper, and 15% zinc. The anti-fungal properties of corn comes from 39% magnesium, 37% selenium, 12% copper, and 15% zinc. Corn is also high in phosphorus at 29% and 10% potassium. NPK of corn meal is 1.6 / 0.65 / 0.4 .... that's better than horse manure NPK of 0.7-0.3-0.6. Cow manure NPK is 0.25-0.15-0.25, and NPK of dry chicken manure is 1.1-0.8-0.5. Poultry manure releases up to 75% of its N the first year in the soil, compared with 33% for most other manures, which lasts 3-12 Months. Corn is very low salt, versus high-salt chicken-manure.

See more at: http://www.grow-it-organically.com/npk-fertilizer.html#sthash.2Zfv27se.dpuf

Magnesium is high where hydrangeas are, but barely adequate everywhere else.

That makes sense, since my rock-hard clay at pH 7.7 was tested exceedingly high in magnesium. After I did dozens of red-cabbage pH testing ... I can tell how high pH a soil is just by how hard it is. Another way to increase phosphorus is to mix COARSE sand into sticky clay ... that will separate the clay and make it more loamy. U. of Hawaii Extension had an article on how phosphorus uptake is increased when the soil is made fluffy, either by the addition of coarse sand or organic matter. In the area of your acidic clay, one way to increase phosphorus would be to add some coarse sand. Cracked corn is acidic at pH 4 at first, but after it decomposes, it shifts to neutral zone. I would still use cracked corn for acidic heavy clay, but wait for a few months for it to decompose toward neutral pH before planting.

I use coarse sand for poor-drainage & wet clay. But for areas of dry & rock hard clay on the hill, I use organic matter like alfalfa hay or cracked corn for better moisture-retention. Alfalfa hay has pH of 5.8, while cracked corn has pH 4.

I check to see if corn-gluten (the protein part) of cracked corn hurt plants. See excerpt from below link: "NPK of corn-gluten is 9-0-0. Corn gluten meal materials have a high percentage of nitrogen. It carries a warning to allow 1 to 4 months of decomposition in the soil prior to seeding. Allelopathic properties will inhibit the germination of seeds. However, there is no danger to established or transplanted plants. "

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/gardennotes/234.html

So I would wait one to four months for the cracked corn to decompose to neutral pH in the acidic clay area.

Please take a before shot momscottagegarden so we can see how your garden flourishes.

Thank you Straw for your thorough breakdowns as always.

I'm quite anxious to see how my Nicole Carol Miller will do with the lava rock mixed into the soil (moved her from 3 gal to 7 gal). I then topped it with some more lava rock and finally some wood mulch. I put the wood mulch (orchid bark) because my other plant, Remember Me, is the most healthy of all my roses, and it is the only one currently with wood mulch.

(Mulch put ontop shortly after) Nicole Carol Miller

Sounds like a great plan msdorkgirl(11)! I hope things work out for you!

Msgirl: Your Nicole Carol Miller is very healthy & nice leaves.

Cottagegarden: I went out to check my rootings in shade ... noticed few tree-leaves that haven't decomposed yet. Then it dawned on me that leaves from trees can change the surface pH of soil. I have 2 river birch trees (seedless variety), 1 Heritage Birch (very vigorous), and 2 white birch. I tested the pH of the bark on my Heritage Birch tree: very acidic, more so than pine-bark. My lawn near birch trees is lush & dark green & no dandelions. But the lawn in front with less trees is chlorotic (pale), and lots of dandelions.

Since Heritage birch is vigorous, it secrets plenty of acid to go through my rock-hard clay. Its leaves are quite acidic, thus fertilized my lawn to a deep green. I don't rake leaves in the fall. If the soil sample has leaves in it, it will change to acidic. It takes years before the leaves are fully composted to neutral pH. For pH values of fresh leaves: http://www.asecular.com/forests/phleaves.htm

Most acidic is Eastern Redbud (pH 4.3), Virgninia pine (pH 4.4), sugar maple (4.5), black maple (5.4), black walnut (pH 4.6), white oak (4.6), black oak (5 to 5.5), white ash (5.8 to 6.1), American Beech (5.8 to 6.9), flowering dogwood (5.5 to 6), Slipper elm (7 to 7.9), Hackberry at pH 8.

So to consolidate other info that I'm curious about, how do the following work/apply/get added to rose regimen:

- molasses

- brewer's yeast

- chicken manure

etc?

Straw can answer your question better but I do want to share my opinion... I think when your growing plants/roses in pots you must be careful what is used for fertilizer because potting soils do not break down some stuff as efficiently as native garden soils do... And if its not breaking down the plant/rose can not use it...

I have used granular fertilizers in pots but they had soil microbes in the product which help break it down...

Hey Jim, didn't you use brewer's yeast? What were your experiences?

I am trying to be more careful, and doing the weaker solution of stuff that I put in to see how it works out for me. Did you see the crazy seaweed-looking leaves I had on my Remember Me? I learned my lesson with that. :)

I used Brewers Yeast on our in ground roses.... Result was more blooming...

I can't remember if I ever used Brewers Yeast in a potted rose or not though...I'm not sure potting soils can efficiently break down Brewers Yeast or not?