Start over. With a contractor who knows what he or she is doing. You have to figure out what is leaking and fix it. And if it has been leaking for a year you may well have a mold problem.

thank you for responding so quickly! Yes I am going to use a plumber who is fixing something else this contractor did wrng and at the same time can open up the ceiling to find the source of the leak and fix it. this Plumber is saying that caulk cannot be used on the lines between floor tile however my friend said the same thing happened in his bathroom and he did use caulk. so to reiterate I am going to solve the initial problem first I just need opinions on how to resolve the grout cracking issue, short of removing the floor, strengthening joists and replacing floor.

question--are you saying not to use the shower head to fill the base of the shower but instead to pour water from the sink to fill the base? Also, the shower drain can't be plugged--is a water tight plug required or can I cover the drain with an overturned bowl?

Listen to Creative Tile. Find someone local to you with his knowledge and skill. May I ask how you found the first contractor?

Yes. Do not use the shower head. This way if it leaks you will know it is not the plumbing. The stainless plate on the drain should have 2 screws to remove it. I'm guessing from what you have described (photo's would help) that the shower will leak fairly quickly so keep a close eye out for water damage and pull the plug as soon as you see any. You can pick up a cheap drain plug for a couple dollars.Your best approach now is to call a professional tile setter and have them evaluate your situation instead of you having to do this. Your going to need one anyway.

Referral, plus a hired an architect (also referred and who received local press and awards) to design bathroom and oversee construction.

Thanks creative tile!

Check on line NTCA (National Tile Contractors Assoc) and link to CTEF (Ceramic Tile Education Foundation) to see if there are any certified installers in your area. This will increase your odds of qualified labor. Still check anyone out that will be working in your home.

"Hello All,..."

Hi

"...I'm not sure why but water sits forever on my shower floor and I believe it is the cause of water seeping into the ceiling below. .."

I would think they are two separate issues. Maybe three. The water leaking to the ceiling below is a result of the shower waterproofing system that has failed or that was never done right from the start. It might be a glass or shower curtain issue as well. The water sitting on the shower floor the result of poor tile installation or not enough slope. Have you checked the showers slope with a level. It should be 1/4" per foot in all directions to the drain. I might also check the shower's P Trap and see if it is sealed partially with concrete....

"...In addition, outside of the shower, the grout is not holding up at all..."

Most likely do to a subfloor and framing that is getting wet, swelling and making the tile bond fail.

"...When first applied, the grout cracked within months and after the contractor re-grouted (a year later--don't ask) the grout held up for only 2 days before cracking..."

Signs of a leak and failing wood framing.

"...He says something about weak floor joists and he built up the subfloor as much as he could....."

Sounds like a hack and fishing for anything to tell you.

."...At this point he suggests removing the grout from the lines in between the tiles on the floors and replacing them with caulk, even though these floor tiles do not meet the wall. What to do?..."

Remove him from the job site and then redo the shower and possibly the structure around the shower.

Thank you John. Not sure if it was your intention, but your breakdown presentation made me smile! Thanks again.

John. Can you recall a day without a discussion about a bad shower install? essdana you are not alone. The problem of qualified labor exists in all the trades and it is difficult for a home owner to determine who is qualified. Time invested in research will pay off in the end.

"...Thank you John. Not sure if it was your intention, but your breakdown presentation made me smile! Thanks again...."

I'm glad you did. I'm sure those are in short supply these days. My intent was to make reading the info easier. Answer each sentence vs the entire post.

Well I left a couple of messages for tile setters in that
association CT referenced. CT, thanks for the words of comfort--I do feel
alone so am grateful for this forum. I thought I did the right thing by
hiring an architect to look out for my interests as well but his position
seemed to be to hold the contractor to the warranty if anything goes wrong, vs
inspecting the contractor's work along the way. I don't believe this
contractor will honor his warranty and redo the shower and I don't trust his
competency at any rate.

Unfortunately, I don’t have the money to redo the shower, per
John’s suggestion. And more immediately,
I am renting out the room with this shower stall beginning June 1st-August
7th. I am seeing a guy who
is an electrician who has friends in the trades and he says water was also
pooling on his shower and caused a leak to the ceiling below. He had one of them remove the grout and
replace with silicone and he hasn’t experienced any more leaks. He is somewhat annoyed that I am questioning
his experience and knowledge but from what I’m gathering from John and CT, this
silicone solution won’t work. Or is it
that you can’t recommend it because it is a temporary fix? If it is a temporary fix, maybe I should do
it to avoid the leak from getting worse since I won’t have enough time in 6
days to find a qualified tile setter who can fit the work in his/her schedule,
let it everything dry before I do an extensive cleaning prior to the arrival of
my renter.

I will try to add pictures.

How about calling your home owners insurance co. Let them go after the contractor. On another note did I understand you correctly? The electrician is upset that your questioning his tile expertise! Priceless :)

So you are going to rent the space and allow water to leak for the next couple of months? That would be negligent and your insurance company will deny coverage and should not even be considered as an option for collecting damages.

Since you hired an architect to oversee construction, this is on him to fix at his own expense, as he was negligent. How long ago, at this point, was the bathroom done, how long have you been aware of leaking and have you or when did you contact the architect that there is a problem with the construction? Was there a warranty on the work?

essdana:

I run into this occasionally and I'm afraid you're in denial. Cancel your plans to rent the room. Anyone who can afford to hire an architect can certainly afford to get a loan to hire a competent contractor for the do-over. I understand that this is not what you want to hear, but I feel an obligation to tell you the truth anyway.

Hire someone capable of documenting the mistakes and let the architect and previous contractor know that they are going to be held responsible. It is unlikely that you can cost effectively recover any damages from either, so you'd better be an excellent bluffer.

Thank you Joseph, Snookums, John and CT for your honest and well-thought out advice. I'm not a very good bluffer, but I will seek fair compensation and will share the results on this forum and other social media. The architect is well known in the Washington, DC area which is pretty well-represented on this forum so perhaps there will be interest as to how this situation unfolds.

Essdana - how again is the architect drawn into this mix? They typically do not specify how to build a waterproof shower. They can however help design the space.

Once designed even architects use structural engineers to size floor joist and the like.

The guy you want to help is the GC and the tile setter.

Youre shower needs to come out and be rebuilt. There is no way around that tidbit. Clearly you have a chain of command issue.

Your responsible party is likely the GC who has the permit and contract . Likely He or she sourced the tile sub and that choice was to some degree based on pricing. He took a chance on this tile guy and you are suffering his mistake. I doubt the architect specified the tile installer or negotiated the price to pay the tile installer.

( the main reason we do very little sub-contracting)

The best way to move fwd is hiring an independent Tile SHOWER builder. It will come at a cost of paying for true skilled craftsmenship from a pro specializing in the tile shower field.

This weekend alone i had 2 inquiries from homeowners with failed showers both in the same city of Eden prairie and only miles from each other. The suprising irony is they were both shopping for their price point the second time............they will find it.

I think you might be making assumptions about the role of the architect that may not be correct. It could be that the architect has a more expanded role in the project and was responsible for hiring the contractors.

Thanks for all of your comments. I am going to review the contract prior to speaking to the architect. He is aware of my frustrations re this project.

OP says he was responsible for overseeing construction, so I don't see how he is relieved. Architects I have known have been involved in projects specifying to the minute detail and overseeing the work.

"This weekend alone i had 2 inquiries from homeowners with failed showers both in the same city of Eden prairie and only miles from each other. The suprising irony is they were both shopping for their price point the second time............they will find it."

I've had good luck with previously spanked customers. They usually aren't looking for another whuppin'. Some folks learn faster than others.

I think y'all missed the line where the OP said she was ''seeing'' the electrician. Bit of human vanity and ego wrapped up in that pro not being ''wrong'' and the OP accepting his word. You know how pissy you'd get if your wife or girlfriend questioned something you said ''because I heard it on the internet''!

OP, buy the new TCNA handbook so you have concrete instructions that cannot be argued with. Direct from THE recognized authority.

I've been "seeing" an electrician for nearly 40 years now. Watch out, they kinda grow on you.

Architects I work with specify as much as the client can afford and then make a couple visits. They do not baby sit and watch every trade every second of the day. That is un realistic to think they do. No way - No How.

I don't recollect anyone saying that architects baby sit and watch every trade every second of the day.

"...I don't recollect anyone saying that architects baby sit and watch every trade every second of the day...." - jerzeegirl

Really? - you can not see this post below from Monday? Maybe you are only seeing some of the posts?

"....Since you hired an architect to oversee construction, this is on him to fix at his own expense, as he was negligent...." - snookums2

To think that the repair bill is to be picked up by the Architect is a little "Left Field". Not realistic at all in my opinion.

Again, you don't know the arrangement the OP had with the architect. It could be that the architect WAS negligent (for example, not accounting for deflection which is perfectly within his or her purview). Some architects do shepherd the project from beginning to end (without necessarily babysitting each and every contractor) and the architect might even be involved in hiring contractors. You are implying that an architect draws up a plan, gives it to the homeowner and then goes away, which is certainly not how it works in my experience.

Architects do not specify framing materials specific sizes. Structural Engineers do. Structural engineers are required for a site visit after the other trades have completed their work. Then the city comes to look, but only after the structural engineer says it's ready and has stamped his logo or degree thingy on the plans.... Architects do not come back for this inspection.

To think an architect is responsible for this is not realistic. Not unless he/she is both the structural engineer AND the Architect.

I work with both all the time. I have been doing so for years and years. I have hired both personally for my own home and projects. Perhaps in the US your rules differ from Canada.

The post above saying that the Architect has to pay because the tile guy did a crappy job makes no sense to me at all.

What does an Architect do?

An architect is not just involved in the design of a building. As a licensed professional they are also responsible for public safety and overseeing of projects. Their role is important in every stage of the building's construction, from the initial concept to the opening ceremony when the building is complete. Beyond completion, an architect often remains involved in a project as buildings evolve to incorporate new surroundings and ideas.

The aspects of work can be split into three main roles or phases- the design, documentation and construction roles.

In the design role, an architect is hired by a client to produce detailed designs of a concept or idea that the client wants to bring to reality. As well as needing creative design ideas, this part of the role involves a great deal of technical knowledge and responsibility. There is a need to comply with building and safety regulations, local planning regulations and restrictions. Depending on the project there may be laws surrounding the preservation of the local environment or any historic parts of a building. Regular client meetings are important to establish requirements and discuss detailed design proposals. Also important is heading up the team of professionals who will work on this stage of the project including engineers, designers and financiers.

During the documentation phase, the responsibilities are to capture the design on paper, producing detailed drawings and using technology such as CAD to test the feasibility of the design. This stage can involve continual revision and redrawing to incorporate changes based on the client's requirements, budget and regulations. Once the design documents are complete, there are then a second set of documents that need to be produced.

These are the construction documents, which translate the design into instructions and technical specifications for contractors and construction experts. Once the project reaches the construction stage, the architect will be involved in site visits and meetings, overseeing the construction and signing off on various pieces of work, negotiating with contractors and dealing with and resolving any problems that arise.

https://www.sokanu.com/careers/architect/

Since you hired an architect to oversee construction, this is on him to fix at his own expense, as he was negligent...." - snookums2

I was saying that based on the OP stating she hired an architect through overseeing the construction - to his specs.

Those specs could/should have generally stated the construction was to meet ANSI, TCNA, manufacturer, local code, etc., requirements or been more detailed; and was to pass inspections. If he is overseeing the project, he should be ensuring all that was done, no? What else would overseeing construction mean? Or he left all that out and let the chips fall where they may? Which would also be negligent.

That a GC or trades person screwed up down the line, he would have to work that out with them. Transparent to the client.

Architects I have known cover details down to the type of nail used, they don't just dream up pretty pictures. They have also been control freaks and worried about every last detail, involved in their projects and execuion.

Of course they do engage other professionals, including the eyes of other architects, to review their plans or contribute, as needed. And, of course, those professionals are ultimately responsible for carrying out their own work; and the contractors and workmen the details of the plans and specs provided.

All sorts of arrangements are made, so I don't think you can say architects have limited involvement and responsibilities.

Perhaps all along the Architect has been telling the General contractor to tell the tile sub to caulk in place of grout. They just failed to keep that detail private from the poor homeowner ..

Now the tile sub is going to farm that out to a handyman since he knows its not right... The handyman will o'blige and be the last monkey to touch it.

"Perhaps all along the Architect has been telling the General contractor to tell the tile sub to caulk in place of grout. "

No way in Hades.

and also its not always the worker...this usually happens when people design by price. Not saying this is her case, and dont want to say you get what you pay for because many people dont know how much things cost when the house being built is approaching deadlines. Im sure the tile guys feel it like us countertop guys..by the time people get to our scope of the house..all the other trades did the typical 50% over budget thing..and many new home buyers have to shop price. I also know just because some workers charge crazy prices doesnt mean they are good either. Sorry this happened to you but it does help a little bit by sharing with us, because we feel your pain. You have read quite a bit of helpful information on this post as I even did..great advice, I betcha the next person will get put in a headlock they tell you that same crap again..:)

OP here. Haven't had a chance to read all of the comments--work 2 full-time jobs and am stealing a few moments from day-job 1.. But just got off the phone with a member of the tile association referenced by CT and they said to do the same test he said to do from get-go so will do that when I get off of work. My electrician "friend" is picking me up so I'll have to go on the down-low, lol. Sophie, you are on-point and Joseph--more power to ya!

On a serious note, water isn't visibly coming down--but it's an old house with layers of plaster so may be taking its time. When water was coming down, I smeared some pre-made grout along cracks in the grout b/t wall and floor and water stopped. Been about a month or 2. I started this post b/c I noticed that ceiling's plaster was cracking more and spreading more and a piece of plaster fell down so thought problem was starting up again or had never been fixed with the premade grout.

I have more time tomorrow to devote to this so that is when I'll read over everything carefully and pull out the contracts.

Really, really appreciate all of you. No longer feel alone.

i mean read over every comment here carefully--i really appreciate your time!

Apparently, the contractor permanently affixed the drain cover to the tile, so I am unable to take it off and plug the drain (don't see any screws). I covered the cover with duck tape but before I fill the shower base with water, thought I'd run it by you guys. I hope its not considered a dumb question, but is it going to be a problem removing gummy wet duck tape after the test? Is there another way to close off the drain?

It would help if you can post some pics .....let's see what you are dealing with -- problem(s) -- !

Some drain covers are a compression fit. Put a screw driver through one of the holes and pry up to see if it pops out.

"Is there another way to close off the drain?"

After scrubbing with acetone, run a 1/2" thick bead of 100% silicone around it and bed a piece of clear acrylic or something similar onto the silicone. Wait 24 hours and it will be waterproof. Pry off the plastic and the silicone will easily come up with a razor blade.

I would use the draft stop instead of the silicone , Joseph . But to check it properly , including the connection , an inflatable device should be inserted into the draining pipe .

Is that drain very close to the back wall of the shower?

That is an Ebbe drain grate and it will pop off with some force...they have a tool that comes with the drains once grouted they are tough to pop....