Hi Alex,

We also have chickens, and they are for eggs. But the guineas are just "yard birds". We have an expansive yard, and it "looks nice" to see guineas inhabiting the outdoors. Some people have other yard birds, such as peacocks. Peacocks can be really pretty (pretty as a peacock), so they make excellent yard birds. Like guineas, they can be noisy, and have a "cry" that can be heard for a long distance. But peacocks are much more expensive than guineas. Yard birds are a living sort of "decoration".

We don't see fleas on our poultry, but I am sure they are out there, on countless rabbits, squirrels, coyotes, deer, you name it. And those warm blooded mammals can be hosts for fleas, ticks, and maybe some parasites.

Your cold climate may be unfavorable for ticks. Not so, ours. When we first moved here, ticks were everywhere, including on the deck and occasionally even in the house. The guineas have gotten over 99% of them, and made them a rarity. I now see a tick maybe once a month. Before the guineas, I saw (and killed) several ticks every day. So the guineas are doing their job. And I kind of like having them around. More later. I will be making another "standard" 4-row zinnia bed tomorrow, this one for "exotic" zinnias.

ZM

ZM - yup! Familiar with peacocks - beautiful but noisy. Though hearing them always makes me happy as the sound is paired in my mind with memories of childhood adventures at one or another of friends' or relative's ranches. Guineas, on the other hand, I only have experience with up here in the northlands - dodging them in the road on the way to the shop. Someone at the homesteading thread I mentioned above called them ugly. I very much disagree with this - these particular birds were a beautiful blue-gray. I don't see them much these days at the home where they were. Never saw one hit in the road, so maybe the people just tired of them and gave them away. That sort of thing does happen alot. I can understand liking having them around, personally. I feel this way about the cats.

Back on topic now. I am still in a dilemma about whether to cull all of my present bloomers but two. That's pretty drastic when I have such a small bed, but I don't want to cross any of the others. I suppose I could wait until the newest seedlings are big enough to plant out before I make a move. Looks like one other that is about to bloom may be at least a double instead of another single. Wishing for the best.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Happy Fourth of July! Some of our neighbors have been setting off some scary powerful bombs. Some literally shake our house. We plan to take in the local Ottawa fireworks display this evening. Last year was fantastic, and the weather this year is close to ideal.

" I am still in a dilemma about whether to cull all of my present bloomers but two. That's pretty drastic when I have such a small bed, but I don't want to cross any of the others. I suppose I could wait until the newest seedlings are big enough to plant out before I make a move. "

Yes, you could wait or not at your discretion. I won't be touting the Stokes strain of Whirligigs after my experience with them this year. The Stokes Whirligigs were very good in the past, but my sample of this year's crop indicates that the Tanzanian growers have let the strain "run out" for the last two years. That happens when you grow next year's crop from a sample of this year's seeds. Next year's crop should be grown from extra intensive rogueing. A few of my Whirligigs have been "on type".

And there is the occasional Whirligig mutant/variant.

The California Giants are somewhat of a disappointment. Their plants are somewhat "giant" but their blooms barely qualify as large.

ZM

Hello all, I see that our host has changed to houzz here! I hope I can join you this zinnia season. We have had so much rain here, I was becoming afraid I wouldn't have any flowers. But, it is starting to dry out now and I'm starting to see some of my old line. I see I am now Rosealice55.....used to be jackier_gardener! More later!--

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

Great to have you back. I have no idea how Houzz managed to change you to rosealice55. I think they must have a software glitch.

Another fantastic Extreme Roll !!! This time with a pink outside and a white inside. And I see a little bee of some species has taken refuge in one of those petals.

I have nothing to match your Extreme Rolls, but I do now have an indoor specimen that represents a significant step in that direction.

Some of its blooms are more mature.

Incidentally, you can click on Houzz pictures to see a larger version. If you want to take advantage of that feature, you can upload a picture that is wider than Houzz's 500-pixel limit. Houzz will down-sample it to 500 pixels wide for direct insertion in the message, but use the original larger version as the basis for the expanded view. More later.

ZM

Jackie - hooza! I was hoping you'd be back. We had lots of rain in the spring, but now I'm getting anxious for it. Watering just isn't the same.

That's a lovely extreme roll. And ZM has so many irons in the fire, he's like a zinnia-smithy. Get him to post pics of those bed-heads from a while back.

Meanwhile, I'm just about ready to cull my entire blooming selection save a few, because they are all so boring. I tell this to the zenman and his careless response: "Yes, you could wait or not at your discretion." Now really, I ask you - does that sound callous to you? I thought at least a couple of "oh, poor you"s were in order here.

Well, I'm not giving up yet. If it gets whittled down to 3 hybrids, so be it. Though, I have a great number that haven't bloomed, so there's still a chance.

- Yours truly, Disconsolate in the Garden

Hi Alex,

" "Yes, you could wait or not at your discretion." Now really, I ask you - does that sound callous to you? I thought at least a couple of "oh, poor you"s were in order here. "

Ummm. I admit, that was callous, but not intended to be. As Clinton would say, "I feel your pain". So now you get, not just a couple of "oh, poor you"s, but three of them: oh, poor you, oh, poor you, oh, poor you. Zinnias are a fickle lot, and a lot of them turn out to be rejects. I have several hundred right now that are destined for our local landfill. My whole South Garden is full of crappy Tanzanian Whirligigs. But that is the same garden that in previous years gave me my game changing tubular mutant and my star-tipped mutant, so I rationalize that, on average, I am still ahead of the game.

" Though, I have a great number that haven't bloomed, so there's still a chance. "

There is a chance. I tend to be guided by Sturgeons Law, that "Ninety percent of everything is crap" . Sometimes I think that is optimistic. But in zinnia breeding, I am willing to accept 95% culls and be happy with 5% "keepers". Because those keepers produce seeds.

On a different note, that fireworks display was spectacular. Even better than last year. I attempted a few pictures (all of them pretty bad--I have a lot to learn about photographing fireworks), but this star-burst reminded me of a zinnia.

I will be planting a few zinnia seeds this afternoon. I know it is getting rather late to be planting zinnias, but I probably will be planting a few more for the next week or two. More later.

ZM

Hi!

ZM, you've got the Extreme Roll line there now! That last pink flower is a nice, full one! I hope you do a better job at figuring out the genetics than I have! I get the rolled flowers year after year, but only a few individuals from a selfed rolled flower have that trait (probably about one in ten). I suspect it's a hybrid condition of a whole set of particular traits, and virtually impossible to get a pure-breeding line. It's kind of the same situation (maybe a little worse) than the scabious zinnia breeders find themselves in.

Let me see the "bed -heads" Alex talks about!

Alex, don't be discouraged. Keep your eyes open for mutations that only flowers in your garden have. It could be particular traits with the leaves or some aspects of the flower. That sort of thing could potentially happen to any plant you have! Then, see if that trait is hereditary. It doesn't hurt to introduce new lines of flowers by buying new seeds every year, then saving the seeds of those plants that either you or the pollinators have crossed.You are sure to get surprises. Now that I'm seeing some seed sales going on, I am tempted to plant some more seeds this year.

ZM, are you still planting seeds in Kansas? Alex, I hope you get some rain.

Looking forward to everyone's posts!

Here are a couple of flowers I have now:

Another rolled flower...would love to get away from the pink/purple shade that is so common in mine!

Every year I will get a flower or two that have stripes, In a bigger flower, this might be interesting. The stripes are actually depressions in the petals, not a deeper color.

Jackie

ZM - well now I feel so-o-o much better. And on a positive note, I think my latest bloom has stripes! Will post pics when it has finished opening.
Later - exhausted after the holiday (we worked and it was busy. Hallelujah.)

- Alex

Jackie,

That zinnia with creased petals is an important new variation on zinnia petal structure. Do classify it as a breeder and use its pollen on itself as well as other breeders. It also has extra wide petals, and it looks great.

" Let me see the "bed -heads" Alex talks about! "

Crossing Razzle Dazzles onto cactus flowered zinnias causes an odd effect in the F1 hybrid, in which the petals take on irregular configurations or "different looking" effects. Some of these I refer to as "Bed Heads" because of the tousled look the blooms can take. You probably already know that you can click on Houzz pictures for a bigger version and, if you also hit your F11 key to remove your Browser's heading material, that picture can be bigger still.

There are other "looks" that the Razzle Dazzle genes can produce.

" ...are you still planting seeds in Kansas? "

Yes, I am. For the next week or two. The plan is to harvest green seeds before the first killing frost, which can be almost any time in October.

ZM

Hi Alex,

" And on a positive note, I think my latest bloom has stripes! Will post pics when it has finished opening. "

I will be looking forward to the pictures, with or without stripes.

" Later - exhausted after the holiday (we worked and it was busy. "

Holidays are not supposed to work that way. Oh, poor you. (Not being completely callous.) But I suppose book stores can benefit from holidays.

Except for the fireworks display, I spent most of the holiday in my garden and doing a little maintenance in my indoor basement growing area. It has the advantage of being cooler than outside in the heat.

It has been hot and dry the last few days, but a cold front and rains are due in this evening. I am planting a few old seeds today. Rather closely spaced, because their germination may be low.

ZM

ZM, your bed-head zinnia is pretty. I like the form. It looks like you are getting plenty of interesting offspring from the Razzle Dazzles! It will be interesting also to see what sort of offspring you get from your rolled petal zinnias. If your results are like mine, you will get just about every kind of zinnia imaginable from the seeds of a single bloom!

The pink Razzle Dazzle outlined in yellow is unusual and a nice color combination.

I am going to try and plant a few seeds in the coming week, and see how they do. If it takes about 8 weeks for those seeds in May to produce plants with flowers, then seeds planted this week should give flowers in September, and seeds by October (I'm hoping!)..

We've had so much rain, while my present zinnias have been growing, that quite a few of the plants have leaf spot. I'm hoping the frequent rains slow down, but now I see another round of rain is coming in tomorrow.

The whirligig seeds that I planted this spring have resulted in a wide variety of flowers, such as the below.

Jackie

It's late, but as I'm still up after a long day, here are the latest hybrids. Both of these are from the same cross between a whirligig and a Green Envy. Not so much stripes on that one after all, but instead a touch of white to the tips and structural striations to the petals. I like it, so it's a keeper. Night night, folks. - Alex

Hi Alex,

Congratulations. You have two excellent F1 hybrid specimens, that look good and unique themselves, and have exciting possibilities for new things appearing in their F2 seeds. And both are producing pollen florets, which will either produce selfed F2 pollen seeds, or can be used to apply F2 pollen to stigmas anywhere.

I have seen a lot of zinnias, but nothing quite like your top F1. It's petal tips are unique and there may be a few petaloids in the center. The second F1 actually has a two-tone coloration, with a hint of purple toward the petal bases, confirming Whirligig ancestry. These two F1s vindicate your cross-pollination skills, and promise to provide you with some exciting anticipation in your next generation of zinnias.

We are getting a light on-and-off rain here, but I hope to get some in-garden work done today. I am happy for you. Your zinnia-embryo and other advanced techniques are paying off. More later.

ZM

Hi Jackie,

That "rosealice" thing still throws me. That's a great assortment of Whirligigs and I always know that you have more that you haven't shown. You bowled me over with some of your zinnia specimens when we first "met" a few years ago.

" I am going to try and plant a few seeds in the coming week, and see how they do. If it takes about 8 weeks for those seeds in May to produce plants with flowers, then seeds planted this week should give flowers in September, and seeds by October (I'm hoping!).. "

I'm taking the same gamble, and hope for some interesting green seeds in October, which I will immediately begin using in my ongoing indoor zinnia growing project. I really like it that a killing frost does not end my zinnia growing activity.

" We've had so much rain, while my present zinnias have been growing, that quite a few of the plants have leaf spot. "

I am seeing a little leaf spot, too. I wonder whether it is bacterial or fungal. Fungal I can control, but I am not so sure about bacterial. I might try Physan 20 in a foliar spray to see if it controls the bacterial leaf spot. I wonder if there is a viral leaf spot. Physan 20 claims viruscidal properties, but they are unproven in my experience. I will be experimenting with Physan 20 this season, because it is easy to include it in a foliar feed, and it has a serendipital surface wetting property. More later.

ZM

A 'whirligig' this morning with a sleepy bee.

Woodnative - that's a beautiful bold whirligig, and nice photo, too! And I almost forgot to say how beautiful all of your whirligigs were, Jackie. I'm hoping you're going to get some more of those three-toned ones you had last year.

Mostly my whirligigs from last year were more muted in their two-tone coloration. As I still had some seed left, though, I planted more whirligigs with the second batch of zinnias I started back on June 19th.

Yesterday I spent the day planting those and some other things that were still sitting in flats. Then I went through and spread straw again on the paths, and some around the new babies. This is a touchy thing, I know. Straw gives the slugs a place to hide, but I need the straw to keep the moisture in. I've noticed many of the plants in the new garden area are stunted in growth. Part of this is diminishing nutrition in the soil, but part of it is that the soil is sandier and when the moles burrow through as well, it dries out extremely quickly. Those areas in which the ground is shadier - getting closer to the apple tree, for instance - definitely hold onto the water longer, even though the moles are traveling through there, too. So, I'm going to go with the straw.

ZM - you'll be relieved to know, though, that I have sprinkled Sluggo around the babies before and after I put the straw on. When I checked this morning, I didn't see slug damage, but there were a few instances of feral damage - damn their eyes, the scurvy knaves. Nothing too bad, however, so I won't be making my winter slippers out of anyone...yet.

And thank you for your kind congratulations. We are all feeling very unique and proud here. I haven't forgotten that I'm in competition for the largest zinnia this summer, but really, the boys had better get cracking because so far I think I've only hit about a 2-1/2". This will never do.
Here are a few pics of the garden as of today.
- Alex

One more - here's Little Mama on the Sunflower Path - zinnias are off to the left in front of the trellis. Now the sunflowers are starting to show.

An unnamed feral at my work. Wild and smart I slip her food secretly but she has otherwise avoided all attempts to trap her plus wild animals. I think she is 8 now. Her current kitten with her.

Woodnative - I suggest sardines - the smellier the better; the kitten is actually big enough now to be spayed as well - as soon as they weigh 2 lbs or more. They can begin breeding as early as 4 months old. But it's a pain to trap them. That's why I always had John do that part. :) I'm just the caretaker, feeder and doc afterwards.

Zinnia report: checked the children this morning and all is well. I'm not sure but it's possible that the draw was the Sluggo - either the ferals or the raccoons (yes, the raccoons can get through our garden fence, unfortunately - along with possums, ground squirrels, minks (!), rabbits, and just about anything else except the deer) have been eating the Sluggo. Or at least are attracted to the smell. They scratch around in the straw where I've put it.

Well, whatever. Just leave the plants alone, please. In another week, there shouldn't be a threat to the zinnias from the slugs so I won't be putting anymore Sluggo down in those areas.

- Alex

Hello!

Alex, I think your garden is so pretty. You have all kinds of things growing there! Your cats are looking good, too. I only have one here...her name is Betty, and she is a huge help keeping destructive little creatures out of my garden. I like your wine-colored zinnias. I don't see much of that particular color here.

Woodnative..your bumblebee picture is nice...you should record it with Bumblebee Watch on the Xerces Society website. They are monitoring bumblebee species in the US and Canada, too. http://www.bumblebeewatch.org/

My rolled flowers continue to bloom. This one is kind of tulip-shaped. I wonder what it will look like when it fills out?

Jackie

Hi Alex,

That is a bit alarming that the Sluggo is attracting assorted mammals. At least it won't hurt them.

" I haven't forgotten that I'm in competition for the largest zinnia this summer, but really, the boys had better get cracking because so far I think I've only hit about a 2-1/2". "

You are right that 2-1/2" won't win biggest zinnia. But so far my "big guns" have been "pop guns" so you actually do have a chance to win. This is a picture from one of my Stokes Burpeeana (from Tanzania) beds, which currently have my biggest, but none too big, zinnias.

The genetics of those are better than I expected (a lower percentage of pending culls) but their crowded condition and questionable soil and nutrition quality contribute to less-than-ideal bloom sizes. My garden soil is in serious need of improvement, and I hope to get than done before next Spring.

Jackie,

Wow !!! What can I say? You continue to amaze. That specimen is a whole new flower form. My envy meter has just pegged. But it is nice to know that zinnias "can do that" and you have added a new goal to my collection of zinnia breeding goals. That up-curved extreme roll belongs on the cover of a future seed catalog. I have had a few up-curved flower forms, but none with the great look that the narrow extreme roll petal gives. Please treat that one as a top priority breeder.

Hi Chris,

I have also seen bumblebees sleeping on my zinnias in the morning. I wonder if night just catches them unaware before they can return to their hive, or if sleeping on zinnias is a thing that they deliberately do. I suppose hypothermia slows or eliminates their flying ability. They do seem to wake up in the morning and continue their nectar collection with no harm done.

More later.

ZM

Jackie - I remember Betty - pretty little tortie girl. Thanks for the compliments. Little Mama and Osiris have been enjoying the garden as their summer home while Mama was convalescing after an eye injury. She's better now, but I may have an issue with trying to get her and her son back to the porch for their meals.

Your extreme roll is so elegant and delicate. Both you and Zenman have come up with such unique forms - I wonder how many years of crosses it will be before I find something so beautiful and different. I'm especially partial to the cactus forms and variations thereof, so that will be the direction I'll try to go, but who knows what may be in store for me.

ZM - I just measured my two favorites and they're bigger than I thought - actually I think they expanded some since I made that statement anyway. The top whirligig-ish one is 3-1/2" and the cactus-y one below it is 3-3/4" - woohoo! I got distracted and didn't measure the scabious one, but it's a bit smaller than the whirligig one.

I'm enjoying this project, but it's a bit addictive. Now I can't help but look at the petunias, pansies, cosmos, daylilies and asiatic lilies. I'll collect seed of the three former as I have before, but I think I have enough on my plate, hybridizing-wise, so I won't worry about actively trying to cross anything else for now.

- Alex

Some unhappy news to report after this morning's inspection. Sluggo most definitely attracts mammals which are most definitely eating it. Though I think the ferals may be guilty to a certain extent, the devastation I saw this morning was, I'm almost certain, caused by raccoons. The entire area which I had sprinkled with Sluggo and carefully mulched was littered with holes, and dirt and mulch - and some plants, unfortunately - were tossed around all over. My first impression was feeling sick to my stomach, thinking that the entire planting was trashed. But after closer inspection, I decided only a third.

I went to work, however, trying to fill in holes, plant those zinnias that still seemed to have a viable root system, and then re-spread the straw. After watering it all in again, I sprayed some bitter apple spray that is made for repelling pets and/or preventing them from chewing on things they shouldn't, including themselves. It's not toxic, but it is nasty-bitter.

Afterwards, I revised my estimate down to only a quarter loss of the new zinnias. Further evidence that it was the Sluggo which encouraged the raid, was that there were areas which I hadn't gotten around to mulching where I had sprinkled a little of the Sluggo (the mulched areas got twice as much since I'd put it down after planting and then again on top of the mulch) - these areas were licked clean of the Sluggo pellets, and not too much else was done to the plants.

So - sorry to have to report this, but for anyone interested: if you have raccoons (or other small mammals, I'd guess) in your area, DO NOT use Sluggo for slugs, or at least not with new plantings that can't take a little damage. :(

- Alex, forlorn in the garden...but still resolute

Apparently I stopped the conversation. Sorry about that. I've now switched to crushed red pepper for a deterrent, and it appears to be helping. I promise to be nice and not mention the "r" (racc**n) word again.

Hi Alex,

You didn't stop the conversation -- we were just busy or something. Your warning about Sluggo attracting Raccoons and such is well taken. I knew it would attract slugs, but you have saved me from having a disaster with my zinnias, because we have a number of potential Sluggo destroyers, including raccoons, possums, coyotes, squirrels, rabbits, and the occasional weasel. And we have feral cats and bobcats, although it is not confirmed that they are attracted by Sluggo. Fortunately our slugs hang out in damp areas, like the area around the outside faucet on the north side of the house, and on the north side of a big fruitless mulberry tree. I don't have zinnias near any of those places.

As part of my "Big Zinnia" project, I am growing a couple of beds of California Giants zinnias. This is a view into one bed.

California Giants are an old heirloom strain, so they are "run out" with a lot of singles and semi-doubles. There are a few blooms that are reasonably close to the original type, but not as large. I suspect bloom size is affected by both genetics and environmental factors, such as soil quality and nutrition and weather. I have a few that are good enough to be treated as breeders. A lot of them are going into a contractor bag to be sent to the landfill.

I plan to cross some of my Razzle Dazzles and Exotics onto some of better examples, to get some "new blood" into those strains. I will probably be growing those F1 crosses indoors this Winter, and probably some of their F2 generation early next year indoors. More later.

ZM

Hello!

It's sunny now, but still pretty wet here in central Indiana. There are many mosquitoes, too, but I guess the one upside is that this all helps the amphibians out there. They are singing every night!

I hope you can solve your slug problem, Alex. Interesting that Sluggo is so tasty to some creatures. I remember once someone told me that sprinkling diatomaceous earth around hostas would help the slug problem there. I bought some of it, and it did seem to help some...I guess it makes a very sharp surface for the delicate bodies of the slugs. But, one thing was that I hated working with the stuff. I got it on me, and it was just an unpleasant feel I couldn't get rid of. I don't think it would be good to inhale it either. Have to be careful when handling it.

Mostly now, I am starting to collect seeds and doing some crossing. Weeding gets unpleasant with the bugs and heat. Below is a slightly rolled zinnia. Wish I could get some extremes in this color!

Some of the Benary zinnias open in such a programmed way...they show some nice folding designs as they mature, like this one" :

ZM, what do you consider a "big" zinnia? I see that my biggest ones now are about 4 1/4 inches in diameter. I would guess you want something even bigger! Can you imagine-- a dinner plate zinnia?? You'll no doubt be avoiding the State Fairs because you couldn't cross them with your exotic diploid plants.

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

That Benary has an amazing spiral geometry that some sunflowers have. But I can't remember seeing it in a zinnia, and I love it. I have a few Benary's coming on, and I will watch to see if any of them have the spiral flower form. That trait is subtle, but worthy of getting breeder status for the specimen.

" ...what do you consider a "big" zinnia? "

Burpee has advertised 6 inches as the "up to" size for Burpeeanas. At one time the Burpee's Giant Hybrids were described online as "up to 6½ inches across". Unfortunately, Burpee has apparently discontinued that strain, and the Burpee Burpeeana strain is no longer listed in their print catalog, but was still on their website the last time I looked. Burpeeanas from Burpee may be "on the way out" for the second time.

When I was a kid, more than a few years ago, seed catalogs occasionally claimed a bloom size up to 8 inches for some zinnia strains. We grew those "giant zinnia" seeds from time to time, but none ever approached 8 inches. It is possible that they came from a seed field that contained a few 8-inch zinnias, but the chances of you getting a seed from one of those was comparable to your chances of winning the lottery.

However, I believe that 8 inches and larger is possible for zinnias, and that is a goal that I hope to achieve in the next few years. A few years ago I had several specimens that I referred to as "Dinosaur Zinnias" that exceeded 7 inches across in several directions (they were not symmetrically shaped). Notice the long stigmas on this Dinosaur. Some exceeded 3/4-inch in length on the older petals.

This is one of its siblings.

Some Dinosaurs came close to the 8-inch mark in one selected direction, but they had several features that I was not too wild about. For one thing, they were nearly single. And they had a rather short central cone, which meant they didn't have room for a lot of petals or florets. They were recombinants of Burpeeana X Whirligig crosses. But other recombinants had even longer long, narrow petals, like that "Pink Shaggy Dog".

As its bloom matured its petals continued to get longer, but they hung down, instead of out, so that its diameter just kissed 6 inches. When you held its petals out horizontally, it could exceed 8 inches. But when you let go of its petals, they flopped down into the hanging mode.

Long story short, I think zinnias are capable of true 8-inch blooms. But it is going to take a gene mix that I haven't done yet.

ZM

ZM and Jackie - wonderful pics! Jackie, that spiral form on the Benary zinnia is spectacular. When the flower is fully opened, does the design "disappear"?

Appear to be at a stasis with my garden catastrophe; am crossing my fingers that the worst is over. Think there will still be 3/4 of the planting that should bloom. There are a number of plants budding now; should have something to show in a couple of weeks. Hopefully, a few will be keepers.

Hi all,

Indiana is still sopping wet and the air is full of mosquitoes. Plus, it is very hot! I think the weather is strange for all parts of the country...

ZM, I look forward to your progress with big zinnias. I'm glad you showed "Shaggy Dog" again. That is one of my all time favorites of your zinnias. Those long narrow petals are very striking. I think big zinnias is something a lot of people would really love!

Alex, I hope you get flowers soon! Not all of the Benary zinnias show that pattern of petals when opening, but a few of them do. It disappears as the petals unfold to make the typical multi-petalled form of flower.

Telescody, it's good to see some of your flowers. The white one at the bottom is very nice.

I don't have much to show. Some of my flowers have narrower petals, but not so much as ZM's. A number of the Extreme Roll descendents have petals like this below:

Jackie

Hope to see more of the unusual recombinant a zen man and others are producing. My little patch of zinnias is blooming strong. Some boring pinks but I really like a couple of the scabious as....ESP one red one and a couple nice whirligigs.

Hey, Telescody - those are some pretties, especially the white. I had made the comment eariler that I didn't like the whites as well, but then I turned around and crossed a white single with my scabious breeder, just 'cause I liked it after all. Maybe I'll be able to come up with a white double like yours. Well, maybe not exactly like yours. :)

Jackie - yeah, I figured the pattern wouldn't be distinguishable later, though what a shame; it's so cool-looking. Is that bottom pic fully extended?

Woodnative - that red scabious is outstanding! I know how you mean about "boring pinks" - most everything I've got is pink. I'm biting my nails, waiting for the "orange" and the "royal purple"s to bloom just to see some different colors. But if all we had were the other colors, we'd find the pinks beautiful, don't ya know?

Was going to post some pics, but can't make the system work for some reason.

- Alex

Telescody,

I also like the white one best of the three. Are those Benary's Giants or California Giants?

Chris,

That's a good looking group of zinnias. Several good potential crosses there.

" Hope to see more of the unusual recombinants... "

This is one of my current outdoors recombinants. It is a good Razzle Dazzle. The picture was taken today.

Jackie,

My "extreme roll" isn't as extreme as many of yours. And its rolled part does not extend all the way down to the petal base. I still have some work to do to get into your class of Extreme Rolls.

Alex,

That's a great Humming-Bird-Zinnia picture. I haven't had the opportunity to photograph a hummingbird on a zinnia. We have a couple of hummingbird feeders up and several hummingbirds feeding from them. I guess they are too lazy to go out into the zinnia patch and get some zinnia nectar. You crack me up with your individual petal marks.

More later,

ZM

Hi all,

This is part of the "more later". These pictures were also taken yesterday. Very few of my Whirligigs from Tanzania (Stokes) are breeder quality, but this is a "classic" specimen in my current Whirligig patch.

This is a good white recombinant (not Whirligig) specimen that also has "open" petal spacing, but unfortunately more conventional petal tips.

More later.

ZM

I really like the aster flowered zinnias of yours. That white is extremely nice - another fine exception to my 'not liking white zinnias' rule. I guess I should just throw my hands up and exclaim "OK, alright - I do like them!"

I am just the opposite about the petal tips. The round tips don't appeal to me as much as the angular tips. It's one of the cactus traits that I admire.

Why would you, and I thought perhaps Jackie, too - consider it funny that I would want to know which crosses would most likely be mine? I know it's not a certainty, of course, but it gives me a sense of security feeling as if I have some control over the process, I guess.

Hi Alex,

Well, the petal tips thing is purely a matter of personal preferences. I think that angular tips are just fine in cactus flowered zinnias. I guess I like round tips because they are different, and suggestive of a different flower form. This recombinant showed how much the petal end shape could affect the look of a zinnia bloom.

You do crack me up when you label petals individually. That is a much finer attention to detail than I do. And the surprising and funny thing is that you make it (petal labeling) work. I consider labelling individual blooms as detailed. Sometimes I just label at the plant level. and treat all blooms on a plant as logically equivalent, and continue to do that at seed saving time (all the seeds from that plant go into the same Ziploc bag). My breeder codes (I18, I19, etc) are labels applied to a particular plant label. And frequently I will decide to pollinate all the blooms on a particular plant with pollen from any bloom on another particular plant. In that case, all the petals on a plant are logically the same. But if I decide to treat different blooms on the plant differently, then all the petals in a particular bloom are logically the same.

More later.

ZM

ZM - yes, but the reality is that they most probably aren't the same. I've got volunteer pollinators by the droves, just as you must have. The highest probability under those circumstances would be for selfing or crossing with the immediately adjacent plant, I would think. Bees typically move over a bloom a bit before flying to the next available bloom - which quite often is on the same plant, but could be the plant next to it - which may not be a desirable breeder.

Of course, you're working with a vast quantity in comparison to my one small zinnia bed. And you've been doing this a long time. Your pollination technique is no doubt honed to an art, or at least enough to where you feel you have fairly successfully hit most of the petals of a bloom. I'm lavishing a brushload of pollen onto a few stigmas, and still wondering if I've done enough. That's why I'm so obsessive about wanting to know which ones they actually were. And I've already decided that this year, I'm not going to go crazy and try to cross everything in sight. Too many seeds to have to think about afterwards! I'm going to limit my crosses to something more manageable and mark the petals so that the smaller amount will have a greater likelihood of being my crosses.

Hey - I'm a newbie at this - be kind. :)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" I'm going to limit my crosses to something more manageable and mark the petals so that the smaller amount will have a greater likelihood of being my crosses. "

OK, king's X. I concede that your petal marking makes a lot of sense for your situation. And I admire that you have evolved a workable technique for doing that.

" I'm not going to go crazy and try to cross everything in sight. "

That's a good plan. So you are going to develop a targeted strategy, and that involves some thinking and policy making. That can be a good thing. I have to admit that sometimes if I am carrying a loaded pollen floret, I do sometimes just apply it to an unlikely female zinnia on an impulse.

"Your pollination technique is no doubt honed to an art, or at least enough to where you feel you have fairly successfully hit most of the petals of a bloom."

I have evolved some techniques for making the most of high-value pollen. That involves using all the pollen readily available in the pollen floret, and then extracting the internal anther bundle from the floret, and using the pollen within it. I don't recommend using anther bundles to beginner breeders, because it isn't easy, like wiping florets on stigmas or using brush pollen transfers. But using anther bundles does make it possible to extract pollen from scabious florets. And using anther bundles lets you find pollen in other sources, like petaloids or tubular flower parts or unopened pollen florets. Pollen is where you find it. But using anther bundles is kind of tricky. You need forceps or tweezers with some fairly small or even sharp points. It could be a frustrating technique for beginning breeders.

Changing the subject, this is a current recombinant that has some fantasy-like flower characteristics.

I find it appalling that seed companies would discontinue AAS winning zinnias, and not even save seed stock from them for later re-introduction. When Burpee discontinued their bush-forming Burpeeanas, they didn't even save seed stock, so that later when they tried to re-introduce Burpeeanas, they had to try to re-invent them, with somewhat limited success.

More later.

ZM

ZM, I think the white one originates from a Burpee Giant packet, although it probably has a ton of subtle differences because it's a few generations detached.

I have a couple more to share, my most interesting ones (in my opinion):

Hi Telescody,

" I think the white one originates from a Burpee Giant packet, although it probably has a ton of subtle differences because it's a few generations detached. "

I think the majority of my zinnias have some Burpee Giant "blood", and many differ from them only subtly, because they have genes from several other zinnia strains as well.

Your red one is nice, and rather classic with a great red color. I have a couple of specimens that resemble it. I'll try to remember to take pictures of them tomorrow. It was near 100 today, and very humid as well, with an insane heat index, so I didn't spend nearly as much time in my zinnia patch as usual.

Your single one has unique coloration, and makes a good case for single zinnias. It has subtle colorations of light pink and cream with a hint of lavender. And there seems to be an organized pattern in the colors. I have never seen a zinnia like it, and I have seen a lot of zinnias. I hope to take some more pictures tomorrow, but this is a current recombinant.

ZM

ZM - I like the fantasy form, especially with that interesting bi-coloration. It's convincing me that I should give at least a try or two to some of the blooms I have that have more widely spaced petals, even though their specific look at the present is not what I'm aiming for.

This is one of those things which you can't teach me except by example: developing the instinct for what demonstrated traits may be desirable in an otherwise unprepossessing bloom. I can watch what you do, but I must learn to "feel" my way in the field. And, of course, simple trial and error is the scientific method, after all.

Lots of buds out there promising some color very soon. I'm all anticipation. :)

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" This is one of those things which you can't teach me except by example:"

And zinnias teach me by example, and they continue to surprise me.

" I can watch what you do, but I must learn to "feel" my way in the field. "

And you can develop your own methodologies, as you have already done by labeling individual petals and planting their embryos.

" And, of course, simple trial and error is the scientific method, after all. "

I couldn't agree more. And evolution also works on the same principle of trial and error. And my zinnia breeding is an exercise in trial and error. With Sturgeons Law predicting 90% error rather accurately.

I did take a few new pictures today, in the heat. I do have a penchant for white zinnias, partly because they aren't as common as many colors. This white specimen reminds me a bit of the Bed Head.

ZM

Hi Telescody,

Here are my two red specimens that resemble your double red zinnia. The first one is a Benary's Giant, although it has narrower petals than most Benary's Giants.

I actually prefer the petal structure of your double red specimen to either of my two specimens above. Your specimen has wider, rounder petals, and a very good "classic zinnia" look. A few of my California Giants approximate that look.

ZM

ZM - those first three are over the top - wow! OK, white is definitely back on the menu. And I didn't mention how much I also loved the waterlily form you posted a little earlier.

Have been trying to load some pics of the latest, but can't get the system to work. Sent an e-mail to Support. But now I got it to work. Let's see if it will let me do another.

These two are representative of a number of my hybrids. If the system will work, here's one of the other forms I'm seeing:

A pretty typical scabious. Which is all very well and good, but I'd like to see more doubles in the cactus style. So here's a commercial orange that I'm adding this year:

Anyone else having trouble loading pics? Is this caused by the thread being so long, ZM? Maybe you need to start a new one?

- Alex

Having another try after my talk with Support. Didn't work the first time, but yes on the second. This one is a commercial scabious (minus a petal - might have been my fault.) As if I needed any more pink scabious genes - ha!

Hi all,

Alex said " Anyone else having trouble loading pics? Is this caused by the thread being so long, ZM? Maybe you need to start a new one? "

She could be right, so we are starting another part to this message series at It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 33 . See you all over there.

ZM