Hi Mary,

" Is there anything I can do to avoid these borers in future? "

That is a very good question. I referred to the borer as a stem borer, but I believe it is more commonly referred to as a stalk borer. According to this article on Zinnia Plant Health Problems, the adult form of the stalk borer that sometimes attacks zinnias is a small moth, Papaipema nebris. I don't necessarily agree with the insecticide recommendation (methoxychlor) for the state of Connecticut as the solution. But the recommendations for disposing of old zinnia plant stalks is something that I already do for several reasons not related to stalk borers.

I use a "bug zapper" in my garden to kill hordes of night flying moths. Apparently most moths are attracted to the light of a bug zapper. The bug zapper probably kills at least some of the stalk borer moths, thereby preventing them from laying eggs.

In my experience, the stalk borers kill only a relatively small fraction of my zinnias, and Powdery Mildew is the main enemy of my zinnias, especially as we approach Fall and the zinnias become more susceptible. I do use a combination systemic insecticide/fungicide to protect my selected high priority "breeder" zinnias. I do plan to research the zinnia stalk borer problem in more depth. But right now I am more concerned about general maintenance of my garden regarding the problems that Fall brings.

Incidentally, thanks for your excellent pictures of the stalk borer damage. At least knowing the culprit lays to rest any concerns that your zinnia might have a disease that your other zinnias could catch. More later.

ZM

Hi Mary,

Here is another reference for protecting zinnias from stalk borers. I am not completely satisfied that weed cleanup is an adequate solution, but at least it gives some insight on stalk borers. I will be looking for a more complete description of the life cycle of Papaipema nebris. I still like my bug zapper. I find it interesting that stalk borers move from plant to plant.

ZM

Hi ZM

Thank you for furnishing the link on Zinnia Plant Health. I read it and it is great information and I plan to print it for future reference. I read that I need to remove the dead and potentially diseased brown leaves on the lower plant stalks and dispose of them. Lots to learn...

Thanks, Mary

ZM - I guess I failed to refresh the page because when I submitted my last post it brought up your follow up right before mine. I haven't read your 2nd link yet but you made me remember that about a week ago I pulled up a zinnia in the same bed that looked wilted and yellow; I didn't know at that time to check the stem. It wasn't a favorite so I didn't give it much importance. This creature is getting on my bad list.

Thank you for going to the trouble of posting these links.

Mary

Have been trying to identify the worm which is in my zinnia heads. I'll check today to see if I can photograph any, though it's possible we are getting past the season for them. They're not stalk borers, as they restrict themselves to the flower heads. Not that it matters that much that I know what they are - I know what they do, and that's bad enough. I keep thinking it's this nasty gray moth with the orange head that is having a population explosion this year. I've looked at pics online and in my reference books, but none of them seems to be quite the right one. What ever the moths are, I think they are some kind of borer, but maybe not what's hitting the zinnias.

Anyway - lookit what I found day before yesterday when I was off at the botanical gardens in the big city an hour away:

The zinnias were part of their "English Garden" display. Here's a larger view of the display:

Work to do. Later,

Meant to add: Mary, I love the variety of flowers you have. Used to LOVE arranging flowers and wild grasses from around the property, but that was B.C. (before cats). :)

- Alex

Hi Alex

You may be thinking of J French when it comes to flower arranging. I wish I had such a good variety of flowers.

I do like that bi-color. It does remind me of one I posted earlier. You are fortunate to have a botanical garden near you. Here is one in my garden this morning. It looks like one flower sitting atop another.

I too have been seeing worms on and inside the flower heads. They are 1/2 to 1" long; some are light green and some are brownish grey. I am paying more attention to moths as well and may do some research to see what kind of bug zappers are on the market. I had one about 30 years ago but didn't like the sound when it zapped them. Maybe newer ones are quieter.

Mary

Hi Alex,

Wow! I didn't expect to see another zinnia like that, especially growing in an English Garden display. But, on the other hand, I guess I shouldn't be surprised -- if a zinnia can "do that" once, it can do it again. And Mary had one, too.

I took this picture today, of one of my recombinants.

ZM

Hi Mary,

I like your "two layer" zinnia. Considering your picture and the picture that Alex just showed, I guess that feature isn't as rare as I supposed.

" I am paying more attention to moths as well and may do some research to see what kind of bug zappers are on the market. I had one about 30 years ago but didn't like the sound when it zapped them. Maybe newer ones are quieter. "

The new ones might be somewhat quieter. There is an outer barrier to keep really large insects out and the power grids are more closely spaced so there aren't any long sparks. A big Luna moth is attracted by the light but can't get through the outer barrier to contact the power grids. I keep a water trap under the zapper to trap some of the hawk moths that show up. The water trap also gets June bugs and similar bugs.

The zapper I got is rather powerful, and the smaller moths get vaporized and just the wings drift down like snow flakes. The zapper noise doesn't bother me because I mounted my zapper out in the middle of my North zinnia garden and it is at least 50 feet from the house. You don't hear it at all inside. Out on the deck you can hear it busily zapping in the distance. It's not at all intrusive, unless you walk out in the garden toward it.

I have a mosquito attractant bait mounted on the bottom of the unit. The warmth of the light releases the mosquito attractant. It kills a lot of mosquitoes and the irony of it is the incinerated bugs produce carbon dioxide, which attracts even more mosquitoes. However, there are creeks and ponds in all directions from us, so we will never run out of mosquitoes. Interestingly, green stink bugs are attracted to light, and it kills a lot of them. For some reason, they don't get exploded. More later.

ZM

Hi ZM

I quite like your bi-color and am starting to prefer the more open and airy look you are breeding. Next spring I want to devote my space to a few that grew this year, and add new varieties. If I had not found this series, I would be satisfied with what I have. Fortunately for me I have been able to see the pictures posted by you and Alex and others showing what else can be achieved with better varieties and crossing.

Some of the bug zappers I'm seeing online are 80 watts. I wondered what wattage you have?

Thanks, Mary

Mary - yes, I see I made a mistake about the flower arranging - my apologies to J French as well.

I have not been out to look for worms to take pics of because the weather has been so wet and COLD. No kidding - yesterday it was in the 50's during the middle of the day! Well, I might be exaggerating a little bit, but not by much. Am hoping it will be a bit warmer today, because I have so much work I'd like to be doing out there. And it would be nice if the rain would hold off, too, so I can gather some seed.

ZM - you positively curdle my blood talking about exploding (or non-exploding) stinkbugs. Eeuuwww... (shudder).

OK, refresh my memory if you would, please: how late are you doing crosses this year? I know that I must take into account that you have a longer growing season, but approximately how much time are you allowing for the process of pollination, growth and harvest of green seed before first frost?

- Alex

Hi Mary

" Some of the bug zappers I'm seeing online are 80 watts. I wondered what wattage you have? "

My bug zapper is 80 watts. It is the Flowtron BK80D . It comes with one of the mosquito attractant baits. I also purchased a package of six additional Mosquito Attractant Octenol cartridges.

" I quite like your bi-color and am starting to prefer the more open and airy look you are breeding. "

This Skipper seems to like them, too.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hi Alex,

" OK, refresh my memory if you would, please: how late are you doing crosses this year? I know that I must take into account that you have a longer growing season, but approximately how much time are you allowing for the process of pollination, growth and harvest of green seed before first frost? "

I am allowing about four weeks for pollen fertilization of the embryo and embryo development to a mature stage at which time I can harvest plump green seeds. I will be doing pollinations and cross-pollinations throughout the month of September. We can get a killing freeze here almost any time in the month of October, but I might get lucky with a killing freeze coming later in the month, perhaps about Halloween.

Green seeds survive a light frost. Some of the green seeds I harvest will go directly into 3.25-inch pots to germinate indoors for my first indoor generation this year. Others may go into pregermination Ziploc bags, also for a first indoor generation. And many will go into pans to dry out for storage in labeled Ziploc bags for use at some later time.

This is a recent picture of an early stage bloom of an F1 hybrid involving my up-rolled petal indoor specimen.

More later. I brake for green stinkbugs. NOT.

ZM

Tomorrow I should be able to get out in the garden and do some work - collecting seed and doing some crosses. It has been another chilly day today - at present it is 61 degrees. I don't think it's been much higher than that all day. When I walked the felines, I had my garden coat on and scarf around my neck. A bit extreme maybe, but we're in a windy spot and I don't need to be coming down with a cold just because I wasn't adequately covered.They say 70's tomorrow and some sun; crossing my fingers. It's supposed to fall to 47 tonight. Guess we won't need the air conditioner.

That's a pretty one with the spoon petals. How does it look when it opens up some more? I am personally very pleased with a few of mine and their aging processes. This is an exciting bunch this year. Next year with all the F2s should be even more so, as you've told me. My little Alpha and Beta F2s from my winter-growing experiment were rather a bust, but I'm not discouraged. It would have been expecting rather too much to think I would have hit winners with my first F2s! Still, I have crossed one of the Alphas anyway, in case there is something wonderful waiting in those genes. Only one of the Betas has bloomed so far (they were part of the ones replanted after the "Invasion". It's more interesting than the Alphas but not by much. All singles. Oh well.

Later - Alex

Hi Alex,

" That's a pretty one with the spoon petals. How does it look when it opens up some more? "

That one was a side branch bloom and just opening. This is a picture of the main stem bloom on that plant.

" I am personally very pleased with a few of mine and their aging processes. This is an exciting bunch this year. Next year with all the F2s should be even more so, as you've told me. "

You have actually done quite well this year. Your pollination and germination skills are dead on. Your weather is significantly cooler than here, although the last few days here have been very comfortable. I have started some early Fall cleanup, and I will be sending at least two contractor bags full of culls to the landfill this Friday. More later.

ZM

ZM -

I am allowing about four weeks for pollen fertilization of the embryo and embryo development to a mature stage at which time I can harvest plump green seeds.

Well, I guess that means I'm wrapping things up this weekend in the pollination department. All in all, I feel it's been a productive season. I've made boo coo crosses with all my favorites and a few of my unfavorites, like the single white (I just can't except that there isn't greatness lying latent there in those genes.)

Do you know, I realized suddenly yesterday as I was examining a new bloom from my Z 2011 batch, that I'm already seeing F2s in some of these blooms, because at least a few of my cactus zinnias from last year were from saved seed, as I told you. That is, F1 seed I'd harvested from commercial cactus planted in 2011. It's quite possible that my #1 cactus breeder is one of these. The more I think of it, the more I am convinced; I don't remember buying any new cactus seed last year - only the Green Envy, scabious, and whirligigs. Dang - got to get my records in order!

Some of the green seeds I harvest will go directly into 3.25-inch pots to germinate indoors for my first indoor generation this year.

I'm not planning on doing winter gardening this year, though I think it likely that I may start the majority of my next year's crop in cups. It means more space taken up under lights in the spring, but I'm going to be re-doing my light system. That 8 footer light I have is not space efficient. If I junk it (or at least store it for now), I can set up some multi-layered 4 ft shelves and actually have more space for plants.

I guess all the interesting petals, if there are any in this bloom, are buried in there somewhere.

Whaddaya mean??? It's gorgeous! (cover your ears, sweetie - some men seem to think that long lanky SKINNY look is more attractive. A little fullness gives you more strength and character, i'm tellin' ya.)

You have actually done quite well this year.

("Snatch the pebble from my hand, grasshopper.") Thank you, Zensama. It has been Joy. (Outta my way, stinkbugs...)
- Alex

Patrolling the perimeter for possible threats:

Hi Alex,

And your close-up photography is also great. I wonder how many species of flower spiders there are. That one is a new one on me, and I have already seen several kinds of flower spiders in my zinnias, including one that was white on a white zinnia. I wonder if he was like a chameleon and could change color to match the zinnia color he was on. I should have done an experiment, and tried relocating him. Oh well. Maybe next year. I don't have flower spiders on my indoor zinnias.

" I'm not planning on doing winter gardening this year, though I think it likely that I may start the majority of my next year's crop in cups. It means more space taken up under lights in the spring, but I'm going to be re-doing my light system. "

I don't plan on expanding my indoor gardening shelves over what I have right now (there isn't much spare space left in our basement utility room), but I may overdrive a few more fixtures to get a bit more light intensity. This last Winter I did double my number of shelf units from four to eight, which makes use of all the available floor space. That lets me do a significant amount of repotting to larger pots. There are some wooden storage shelves I could remove to get in another plant shelf unit, but I probably won't go to the trouble to do that.

Hmm. I can't seem to upload a photo right now. I'll have to research what the problem might be. More later.

ZM

Hi Andrew L,

" I've been curious lately, and haven't found a satisfying answer, if left to their own devices/pollinators, what percentage of petal seeds cross and what percentage of floret seeds cross? I realize that there are a lot of variables, but can anyone speak to averages? Like 90% true to seed from floret seeds, and less than 50% for petal seeds? "

First of all, my heartfelt apologies for not responding to your question sooner. My answer would be 100% true to seed from floret seeds and 80% to 90% true to seed (selfed) for petal seeds. Natural cross pollination in zinnias, by bees or very local wind currents or by gravity is not very high.

A university botanist could probably answer your question with more authority, but I have grown and cross pollinated a lot of zinnias, both outdoors and indoors, so I will supply some supporting discussion for my answers.

The zinnia pollen florets contain an internal anther bundle and stigma that pushes through the center of the bundle to push a significant amount of the pollen outside to the center of the floret. So that stigma is essentially 100% selfed with the internal pollen. Floret seeds look a lot different from petal seeds.

If there is any natural cross pollination of zinnias by bees, it will be on the stigmas at the base of the petal seeds. With no cross pollination by humans, a zinnia bloom that fails to produce any pollen of its own will have a very low percentage of fertilized petal seeds. If that bloom produces many pollen florets, it will have maybe 80% fertilized petal seeds.

From that, we can conclude that cross pollination by bees probably accounts for less than 10% of the seeds in a garden situation, but that bees can contribute a significant amount of self pollination. That is the situation for garden-grown zinnias.

In a commercial seed field, bee pollination may very well be much higher, because seed fields contain zinnia blooms in a massively concentrated situation, and the seed growers frequently provide bee hives to insure an abundance of bees in the field. But a significant amount of the pollen knocked out of the pollen florets by the bees may fall by gravity to the stigmas below and self them. Air currents within the zinnia bloom may provide some micro-wind pollination of pollen from the bloom florets or from pollen falling off of visiting bees.

Bees aren't the least bit interested in pollinating anything -- they are interested in drinking the nectar in the florets and some bees are gathering pollen to use as food. Any pollination they do is purely accidental and incidental. Field grown zinnias probably have a somewhat higher percentage of cross pollinations by bees as compared to a garden situation, but not a lot higher. The mere fact that bees do accidentally cause some cross pollinations means that any seed packet of "open pollinated" zinnia seeds you buy will contain some random F1 hybrids, courtesy of the bees.

I rarely bag the heads of zinnias that I am pollinating, because my intentional pollination is much more effective than accidental bee pollination. And I really don't care if a few percent of my seeds do get bee pollinated.

Incidentally, the bees in a zinnia garden situation include honeybees, bumble bees, carpenter bees and a few other species of bees. There are even day flying moths that mimic bees in appearance, and drink nectar much like butterflies and hummingbirds do. Taking time to just observe the ecosystem in zinnias can be an interesting thing to do.

We would be interested in any pics you take in your garden.

ZM

Thanks for the detailed answer. Helpful to know that most of the time, you'll get a flower similar to the one you saved seed from. My biggest problem is the goldfinches stealing all the good mature seeds before I can get to them.

Hi Andrew,

" Helpful to know that most of the time, you'll get a flower similar to the one you saved seed from. "

Selfed zinnia seeds do not necessarily produce a flower similar to the seed parent. Most zinnias are at least somewhat heterogeneous, and recombinations from differing chromosome pairs can produce some interesting variations.

" My biggest problem is the goldfinches stealing all the good mature seeds before I can get to them. "

Zinnia seeds taste good to several species of seed eating birds. Bagging the seedheads is one "solution", but when many seedheads are involved, that can be impractical. Throwing bird netting over the entire zinnia bed might work.

Hopefully you are aware that you can save green zinnia seeds, which can give you an advantage over the birds. It is also easier to distinguish "good" zinnia seeds from "empty" zinnia seeds in the green state. The petals of viable green seeds can have their full color. Unfortunately Houzz is not letting me upload pictures today, but I think I can insert a link to a picture of green zinnia seeds .

If you choose to store the green seeds, let them dry on a newspaper or in a pie pan or some equivalent for at least a week. If you were saving green seeds early enough in the growing season, you could breach the green coat so the seeds could germinate quickly, and start a second generation the same year, with hopefully enough time to do pollinations and get viable second generation green seeds. If you skip breaching the green seed coat (which is alive and impervious to water) the seed's germination will be delayed a week or so for the green coat to die and become water permeable. This is a link to a picture depicting methods of breaching a green seed coat.

If you have questions about any of this, don't hesitate to ask. It annoys me that Houzz won't let me upload pictures. Hopefully that is a temporary problem, and I will discover how to solve it. I sent a query to Houzz about it.

ZM

Meant to post this yesterday - the pics of the worm damage. Had to sacrifice one of my Royal Purples. Note the black spot in the first pic:

Hi Alex,

That is an excellent picture. That is a common serious zinnia pest. At the moment I don't know its name, but I have seen many of them in my zinnias. I suspect its adult form is a small moth. It is one of the primary reasons I have a bug zapper in the middle of my zinnia patch. If I can kill the moths they can't lay eggs on my zinnia blooms/buds to create the situation you have photographically documented so well. Kudos to you. Booo worm!

I see I still can't upload a photo here. Got to pursue that problem with Houzz. More later.

ZM

Hi all,

By switching from Internet Explorer to Firefox I am able to upload pictures again. This is a Skipper sipping nectar from a Razzle Dazzle zinnia.

More later.

ZM

Today will be my last day of crosses. I extended my deadline until now since I had a couple of blooms opening today that I'd like to include in the program. And I'd like to take a moment for reflection on things that "worked" this year, and things that didn't.
1. No Sluggo for me. Instead I will start my zinnias inside and, once planted outside, will cover with little protective hats in the evening when still small and vulnerable.

2. Try to plant all the zinnias in the same location. This year it was a bit of a trial having to trek around the garden to the 5 separate beds where I had plugged in zinnias. Picture this: holding a pollen-laden paint brush cupped in my hand to protect it from wind while I maneuver down one path and up another, dodging two or three ferals in the process, to get to the mother plant. There must be a better way...

3. Need to refine the marking process even further. I think I like the embroidery thread markers best and will invest in a wide range of easily distinguishable colors. Am ambivalent about the individual petal marks. Didn't do it with the latex paint this year, as suggested by ZM, and instead did mark some petals with an "x" using my fingernail as the cross was made. May try the latex next year, but it means one more thing to carry from flower to flower. In a perfect world, this wouldn't be a problem, but when it's sunny, hot, humid, etc, and I am hauling paint brushes, embroidery thread, notebooks and pen, hat balanced on top of the Optivisor which is almost imperative for me to wear so I can see the freaking pollen (my glasses are not enough) - somehow carrying yet another bottle and separate brush for paint seems like more than I can handle. Eventually, I may give up the individual petal marking, but for now, at least I have an idea which petals I probably was responsible for pollinating.

Any thoughts from you, ZM, or other zinnia-slaves?
- Alex

Hi Alex,

1. I agree with your "no Sluggo for you" rule for you. Fortunately our slug problem is on the moist north side of the house, and we don't grow anything there. And animals don't compete with the slugs for our Sluggo, at least none that I have noticed.

2. I will stay with my two-garden layout, a South garden on the south side of the house and a North garden on the north side of the house. I do plan to plant fewer rows in each 4 x 25 bed (4 currently) to make weeding and maintenance a bit easier. I am contemplating as few as 2 rows per bed.

3. I am fine with my current Sharpie code on green velcro marking process, marking usually at the plant level, with some individual flower coding.

I am still thinking over what I my strategy will be next year with respect to seed-eating birds. I am currently bagging critical breeders, but I am considering putting bird netting over a bed. More later.

ZM

OK - had to come in for a heat break. We go from temps a couple of days ago in the 40's where I'm wearing a sweater and we're contemplating building a fire in the woodstove - to now sunny and 80*. The universe has a sense of humor.

Anyway, I like your Velcro markers, but I'm having more difficulty these days reading those numbers - even with my new glasses. The color code may work better for me. This season I was working with only 10 distinct shades of thread, so after hitting #10 pollinator, I started 1-2, 1-3, etc - that is, using two colors to designate the next pollinator. It means for me, that if I see a bloom anywhere in the garden that has a yellow marker, it has been pollinated by my cactus breeder #1, and if it's marked with both a white and a burgundy thread, it's been crossed with my salmon lotus. (I finally decided to designate this shape - I don't know why. It doesn't really look like a lotus, but I keep calling it that in my mind, so there you go.)

I am still thinking over what my strategy will be next year with
respect to seed-eating birds. I am currently bagging critical breeders,
but I am considering putting bird netting over a bed.

But then the little finches wouldn't have anything for the winter. Poor little finches. Why not buy some tulle and cut yourself some squares. It's what I've been doing with my cosmos to save some from the goldfinches. You could attach them with twist-ties.

I do plan to plant fewer rows in each 4 x 25 bed (4 currently) to make
weeding and maintenance a bit easier. I am contemplating as few as 2
rows per bed.

Good idea. My main bed was small, so I tried to crowd in more than I should have, I'm afraid. Next year I should allow for more space for zinnias.

Here is the salmon-orange lotus. This is definitely one direction I'd like to go with this program. - Alex

Hi Alex,

Wow! That salmon-orange lotus is a show stopper! Luscious multi-color coloration. I assume it has a Whirligig ancestor. Those big wide petals are very effective. Where did you get those? And they seem to be a bit convex, which gives them the look of substance. That's an in-your-face beauty. Better than any commercial zinnia, bar none. I feel a little odd saying this, but if a flower show were held today and we both brought our best zinnias to it, I think you would win.

And I don't attribute your success to beginner's luck, either. You have put some thought into your zinnia breeding, and developed the skills to make it happen. And, let's face it, you have had some good luck, too. I can hardly wait to see what you come up with next year.

Meanwhile, I am working with my little weirdies. They might look a little bit sick beside your lotus strain, but I have fun seeing what they can do. They amuse me. This is a recent example.

ZM

ZM - you pollen-pusher! That RD tubular looks rather like a snowflake. I've noticed that before with some of your RDs - like they are developing sections of petals if you get my meaning. I got rather excited because I noticed some interesting variation in some of the African marigolds I received from a trade this spring. They also have modified petals, or rather sections of petals instead of the complete petal formation filling in all around the bloom. They're not singles, but they're not quite doubles either. It's unusual and appeals to me, so I will be saving seed.

Actually - and I feel perfectly justified in blaming this on you - I've been looking at many different flowers that I generally have growing in my garden, routinely saving seed for, and thinking "that one looks a bit different than the others; what would it look like if I could incorporate some of the qualities of this other one in it?" Or words to that effect.

I did do some daylily crosses, because they're so easy to cross, not being composite. I think I mentioned before that I'd once many years back did some daylily crosses and came up with a pretty hybrid. I didn't do any research back then, just did the cross and saved the seed. Of course, you have to wait 2-3 years or more to see what you have, but what the hey - I'm gonna be busy with zinnias anyway. :) And then there are the pansies and the petunias - hmmm...

Thank you for the praise of my salmon lotus. It is a beauty, isn't it? I feel like a proud parent. Yes, both it's parents were whirligigs, though unfortunately I no longer have the photos due to my computer crash some time back. (I'm going to rectify that this year by getting hardcopy prints of all my breeders to paste in my notebook.) My last year written notes list the mother as having been an orange scarlet with light watermelon center - I sort of remember - much darker than the lotus. Semi-dbl but as I said in my notes, though it started out with a flat arrangement of petals, the cone grew too high to be attractive and the petals turned upward in a cup shape as it aged - not pretty. But it had good vigor, size and branching, and the color! The pollen donor was a very pretty single watermelon with white speckled tips and a 4" bloom. Not as hardy or tall as the other. But a happy marriage - hurrah!

- Alex

Hi Alex,

" I did do some daylily crosses, because they're so easy to cross, not being composite. I think I mentioned before that I'd once many years back did some daylily crosses and came up with a pretty hybrid. I didn't do any research back then, just did the cross and saved the seed. "

Did you ever plant those daylily seed? If I were going to hybridize some perennials I would consider iris. I think their color range is a bit better than daylilies, although daylily breeders have worked wonders. There has been a lot of work with pansies, but they are too low-growing for my taste. I don't mess with low-growing zinnias for the same reason. I tentatively tried annual phlox, but they were also too low-growing for me.

" Thank you for the praise of my salmon lotus. It is a beauty, isn't it? I feel like a proud parent. Yes, both it's parents were whirligigs... "

Wow! I would never have guessed that both of its parents were Whirligigs. I haven't seen that big-petal structure in Whirligigs. It's progeny should be interesting. You haven't tried to stabilize a strain yet, and that can be a bit daunting if you don't have much growing space. There is a Tissue Culture technique that could help decisively with zinnia strain stabilization. I plan to dabble with zinnia tissue culture again -- perhaps this Winter. My previous attempts met with culture contamination problems. I have some ideas on how to deal with that that I haven't tried yet. Have you considered experimenting with Tissue Culture?

I am typing this in Internet Explorer, and Houzz still can't upload a photo to Internet Explorer. I thought Houzz might have responded to my problem report, but I haven't heard a peep from them yet on that. I am not entirely satisfied with FireFox, but I guess I am stuck with it for the time being. More later.

ZM

Hello again, Alex,

Well, I'm back in FireFox, so I can upload photos. This one was taken yesterday. It is another of my "weirdies".

Anyhow, this category of zinnia does have some unique traits. Its tubular petals are nearly closed or completely closed on the end and the petal cross-section, particularly the bottom petals, differs a lot from circular. They are almost like a regular petal that has started to inflate.

I'm not wild about this zinnia type at this time, but it might have the potential to develop into something. It could make some interesting crosses between some more conventional zinnias. More later. (I will think of a name that I like for it.)

ZM

Hi everyone,

We got about a 20 minute rain here last night, very welcome but we are still about 5" below our average rainfall here in zone 8 central Miss. The grass actually looked green this morning.

I have a different zinnia I've been watching. The only one with these more narrow petals. It looks just a little like ZM's "aster" flowered ones to me.

Since it kindly gave me some florets I am selfing it as much as possible. I really like this flower shape.

Mary

Hi Mary,

That does look something like my aster flowered zinnias. I like it, and I notice that the petals also have what I call "corrugations". Those ripples make the petals stronger, and add some interest to them. And you got a lot of pollen florets to insure some progeny. This "exotic" of mine also has some pollen florets, kind of hidden down there among its petal "flowers".

It will be interesting to see how many seeds you get from your aster flowered bloom, and how much their plants will resemble the parent, or differ from the parent. Next year should be an interesting zinnia year.

ZM

Mary - we're getting rain right now - we weren't in a drought, but because of the recent heat, things were drying out. Now I don't have to drag out the hose. :)

Yeah, ZM's got us all examining our flowers for petal structure and branching and what-not. New dimensions - cool.

ZM -

Have you considered experimenting with Tissue Culture?

Haven't done that. Maybe at some future date; right now I've got enough on my plate, I think. Will use this rain day to get my records in better order.

- Alex

Hi Alex,I always wish my records were better, too. We could
use some of that rain about now. I will probably be placing the lawn
sprinkler in my zinnia patch in a day or two. Interesting genes make for
some oddball culls, like this one.

ZM

ZM - a tubular single zinnia - I've got to say that's unique! Given your project with the tubulars, how could you not save some seeds?

Meanwhile, I won't be gathering any seeds today as it is still very wet out there. We had a good long rain, by-stepping the hail and possible tornadoes, thank goodness. Walked out yesterday evening and the sky was yellow with a really weird collection of clouds. Made me nervous.

Here's a pic just for pretty. Most of these zinnias are the ones I'm not interested in for breeding, but the mass of color is still nice.

- Alex

Hi Alex,

Our predicted rain isn't until Monday -- Labor Day! Here is a pic showing part of an exotic zinnia plant.

ZM

ZM - I noticed those leaves right away. The whole presentation - flowers and leaves are very striking; I like them even more seeing them as part of the whole.

Hi Alex,

" I like them even more seeing them as part of the whole. "

I feel the same way. A lot of my photos are of first blooms, but next year I hope to get early enough start to show complete plants and even groupings of plants.

This specimen is significant because I think it is an F1 hybrid between an exotic and a Razzle Dazzle.

ZM

ZM - I'd like to see those groupings of plants. Tissue culture aside, are you seeing much stabilization of strains in some of your groups? I ask, because I realize that next season my salmon-orange lotus will be replaced by something else most likely - maybe better, but possibly not so. The little group of W9xW8's, of which the lotus was one, all bear similar characteristics, but that one plant was the best representative. I went back to check my seed, and see that I have some selfed seed of both W9 and W8, but only about a dozen of that specific cross. I will plant them all next season to see if there is another similar - more for the sake of the experiment, than because I feel a driving need to save that strain (though I would like to, if it were possible.)

That cross between the exotic and an RD is a beauty - subtly different; softer-looking. What was it's leaf structure like?

- Alex

I have done something I probably should not have done...

This morning I mixed up my fertilizer for the garden zinnias. After fert the zinnias, i had everything out there so i decided to fertilize the tomatoes and peppers too. Not really thinking about it i continued with the same mixture. I used 1 tsp of Sam's Choice 15-30-15 to 1 gal water. I added 1 and 1/4 TBS of the boron stock solution to this. The Sam' s Choice is old and I no longer have the full label for it, and I couldn't find it online, so I don't know if it contains boron. The boron stock solution was made according to ZM's instructions for zinnias (1/4 tsp boric acid dissolved in hot water, then added to enough water to make one gallon of stock solution).

So...as I was gathering up my supplies it hit me...I just put insecticide on my tomatoes and peppers. Have I rendered them inedible? Should I discard all the small peppers and tomatoes? I can't believe I did this. I poured about 4 or 5 cups solution per plant on the root zone.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated! I need to go back to plant school.

Feeling dumb in Mississippi,

Mary

Hi Alex,

" That cross between the exotic and an RD is a beauty - subtly different; softer-looking. What was it's leaf structure like? "

Medium sized conventional leaves. Actually, most of my breeders have conventional zinnia leaves, except for a few that are a bit more sharp pointed.

" Tissue culture aside, are you seeing much stabilization of strains in some of your groups? "

The strains are stabilizing fairly well, but with a lot of variation within each strain. My stabilization is going faster because, with my indoor project added in, I am getting four generations of zinnias per year. I have been growing the pink exotics (star-tipped tubulars) for about six generations now, and I suppose you could put seeds from all of the following specimens in a packet of Pink Exotic Zinnias.

I grew some Benary's Giants zinnias this year to add in some stronger stems to my zinnia gene pool. Benary's Giants are open pollinated, so they make no pretense at being F1 hybrid seeds, but still their seeds are rather expensive for open pollinated zinnia seeds. I expected those expensive seeds to be much more pure and stabilized than "run of the mill" zinnia seeds, but I was surprised to see that there were a significant number of culls within my Benary's Giants zinnia beds. And there was significant variation as well, like this specimen.

ZM

Just went back and flushed the root zone of each plant with lots of plain water from the hose. Maybe that will dilute the amount the plant takes up.

Mary

Hi Mary,

" This morning I mixed up my fertilizer for the garden zinnias. After fert
the zinnias, i had everything out there so i decided to fertilize the
tomatoes and peppers too. Not really thinking about it i continued with
the same mixture. I used 1 tsp of Sam's Choice 15-30-15 to 1 gal water. I
added 1 and 1/4 TBS of the boron stock solution to this. "

I am not sure I understand what you meant by " I
added 1 and 1/4 TBS of the boron stock solution to this. " If you meant you added 1¼ tablespoons of stock Boron solution to one gallon of nutrients, then you are OK.

" So...as I was gathering up my supplies it hit me...I just put
insecticide on my tomatoes and peppers. Have I rendered them inedible? "

What are you considering as insecticide? Don't expect the trace element Boron to kill insects. It won't. It is just a nutrient that plants need a small amount of. I'm not clear how much of the Boron stock solution you added to the Sam's Choice 15-30-15 solution. I normally add 1/4 cup to 1/2 cup and occasionally 1 cup (but no more than 1 cup) of Boron stock solution to one gallon of zinnia nutrients. Zinnias seem to need about twice as much Boron as "average plants", but even "twice as much" is still very dilute.

" The Sam' s Choice is old and I no longer have the full label for it, and
I couldn't find it online, so I don't know if it contains boron. "

I can't guess whether it had Boron or not either. That is a rather concentrated soluble nutrient formula, so it might have trace elements. It probably doesn't have any insecticide. If the Sam's Choice product did have Boron, it probably wasn't enough to satisfy zinnias.

" Just went back and flushed the root zone of each plant with lots of
plain water from the hose. Maybe that will dilute the amount the plant
takes up. "

That should dilute it to a safe level, if such dilution was needed. As far as I can tell from what you said in your last two messages, there was no insecticide involved in this incident. It would be a dangerous mistake to apply any systemic insecticide or systemic fungicide to vegetable plants. But from what you have said, I don't think you did that. I will be glad to answer any questions you have on this.

ZM

Mary - can't say much to boron in the specific, but you can bet that just about any fruit you might buy at the grocery, unless it's labeled organic, has been raised on plants or trees which have received a heck of alot more insecticide/fungicide than you'd like to believe. Though some of that will inevitably get drawn up into the actual fruit, mostly the amount would be too small to harm you as long as it's washed. The real damage is in the long term, when it gets into the ground or water aquifers and builds up over time. Don't junk your tomatoes and peppers!

- Alex

Hi ZM,

For years I have used a mixture of boric acid powder, sugar, and corn meal, equal parts, to put out for roach bait in our outside storerooms. It kills them. So since I used 1/4 tsp boric acid powder to make the stock boron solution, that's where I'm coming from thinking it wasn't a good idea to put the boric acid (boron) stock solution mixed in with the gallon of nutrients on the tomato and pepper plants. The amount I added was 1 and 1/4 TBS of the stock boron solution mixed in the same gallon of water that had the SAMs Choice fertilizer in it and gave both at the same time, so it was diluted in a gallon of nutrients.

Sorry to be confusing, and am relieved after reading your answer that no harm was done. I always appreciate your help.

PS- I never really went to plant school :-)

Mary

Thank you Alex as well. You brought up a great point about the grocery store veggies. I hadn't thought of that. So I have calmed down and heard the voices of reason and will go forth and fertilize. Thank you for your reassurance.

BTW, I liked your picture "just for pretty". It is pretty and made me think that aside from saving seeds and numbering plants and writing records that sometimes maybe we just need to slow down and look at these beautiful amazing flowers.

I'm going to go talk to the tomatoes now...

Mary

Hi Mary,

" For years I have used a mixture of boric acid powder, sugar, and corn
meal, equal parts, to put out for roach bait in our outside storerooms.
It kills them. So since I used 1/4 tsp boric acid powder to make the
stock boron solution, that's where I'm coming from thinking it wasn't a
good idea to put the boric acid (boron) stock solution mixed in with the
gallon of nutrients on the tomato and pepper plants. "

You are so right, and boric acid powder is the active ingredient in many commercial roach powders as well. But in the highly diluted form in the soluble fertilizer solution, it would be harmless to insects and to people.

" PS- I never really went to plant school :-) "

Me either. But over the years I have bought and read a few books on plant nutrition. My indoor zinnia growing projects require me to provide some reasonably accurate and complete nutrient solutions. In addition to fortifying my nutrient solutions with a little extra boron, I also provide a reasonably complete assortment of micronutrients, including iron, zinc, copper, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, cobalt, and nickel. The latter two are usually left out of commercial formulations. I also provide some soluble silicon to my indoor zinnias, in the form of dilute potassium silicate.

I also add a significant amount of calcium nitrate to my indoor nutrients. Plants use a lot of calcium, and hydroponic growers almost always add a significant amount of calcium nitrate to their growing water. Outdoor soils frequently has enough calcium, although not always. Some water supplies contain calcium suitable for plant nutrition. Tomato blossom end rot is a symptom of calcium deficiency in the soil.

ZM

ZM,

Thank you for putting my mind at ease about the fertilizer solution I used on the tomatoes. I really didn't want to pull up those plants! Since I did have a few tomatoes this year with blossom end rot and since you say that zinnias can also benefit from additional calcium, I'm going to order some calcium nitrate online. I can't find it locally and I remember that you kindly provided a link to your online source.

Do you think that adding boron to the zinnia nutrients will help with stem strength? I have been seeing some weak and distorted stems on quite a few zinnia plants in different areas. This particular yellow may be getting too much house shade in the morning.

The pink one above is in shade early in the morning but gets about 7 hrs of sun total. So this may be an insufficient sunlight issue.

So ZM you use 1/4 cup up to one cup of the boron stock solution to one gal of water/nutrients. Sounds like I need to use more.

Thank you. I promise this is the last about boron. (For a while... :-)

Mary

Hi Mary,

" Do you think that adding boron to the zinnia nutrients will help with stem strength? "

I don't think so. Boron deficiency causes death of the growing point. Actually, those curved stems in your photos would seem to indicate that your stems must be rather strong just to support a heavy zinnia head with such a curved structure. A straight stem is the most efficient strategy for supporting a zinnia head with a potentially weak stem. I am not sure what is causing your zinnia stems to be so curved. I am curious about that, myself. There is a lot to learn about zinnias, and that is an ongoing process for me.

I don't add any special nutrient to my outdoors zinnias to increase stem strength. Maybe I should. However, I am using Benary's Giants in an attempt to add genetic stem strength. My outdoor zinnias do have a problem with our Kansas winds. Typically a strong wind, usually associated with a storm, will blow my zinnia seedlings over to lie on the ground, and then the new growth rises vertically from that position, resulting in an "L" shaped main stem. I do use zinnia cages (like tomato cages, only re-purposed and redesigned for zinnias) to brace my selected breeder specimens, but I don't have nearly enough cages for all of my zinnias.

There may be soil components that contribute stalk and stem strength. Calcium might be one, but I suspect there are others. I do add a small amount of Potassium Silicate to my indoor nutrient solutions, because silicon makes strong cell walls which in turn makes from strong stalks, stems, and other plant structures -- possibly leaves and flower structures as well. Outdoor soil may contain enough soluble silicon to help. Rice farmers frequently use commercial fertilizers that are fortified with silicon, because rice stems need the strength to hold heavy heads of grain above the water that the rice field is flooded with. Fortunately it doesn't take a lot of silicon for my indoor zinnia growing activities. I might experiment with adding silicon to a few of my outdoor plants, but I would need to find a much more economical source of silicon if I wanted to treat my whole garden. The silicon product I use is called ProTeKt, and you can find out more about it at this link for ProTeKt

" I promise this is the last about boron. (For a while... :-) "

We can discuss boron or any other nutrient at any time you want.

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Hello all,

I see we have passed the 100-message mark in this thread, so this might be a good time to continue this over in It can be fun to breed your own zinnias - Part 34

See you all over there.

ZM