Lucillle, I'm pretty sure the comment was meant to be sarcastic.

Probably, only the sickly ones are being caught. I hate to sound uncaring but if the cat doesn't get it, a hawk will or a grackle. I just sat here in my living room, heard a huge commotion outside of squawking birds, then I saw the hawk eating a bird it had caught out in my neighbor's yard. He has no feeders. We have tons of feral cats here and a bird feeder, I have not seen a cat catch a bird yet. I have seen birds eating birds though. I would never keep cats inside if I had 25 acres out in the boonies. I like the bell idea with a breakaway collar, that is really the only thing I can think of to keep them away from the birds. I doubt they could sneak with a bell around their necks! Also, always keep them vaccinated!

lucillle Actually it's not "some" birds that die do to window strikes. It's a leading cause of death for birds. It's estimated that up to a billion birds die in the US each year from window strikes.

Owning property in the country and having a habitat for birds to rest, recover, breed and feed likely does more good for bird populations than the amount that the cats could kill in half a year.

Nothing amazes me more than the effort people make to either deny facts or rationalize their contrary conduct, when reality suggests something they do or believe in is clearly not supported by the relevant evidence or opinions of experts.

snidelywhiplash, I will assume your comment is directed at me since you posted right after mine. If that is the case, I will direct you to take a look at the numerous studies done that point to the fact that feeding birds in winter helps bird populations. You can also do some research into how having a habitat for birds with trees for nesting can improve population. Lastly there are also studies out there they show a correlation between having feed supplies available to birds increases the chance that fledglings will leave the nest.
As far as for bird strikes, you can search for studies on that as well as at least 1 documentary that I watched, sorry, I do not remember the name, but I can try to find it later tonight for you if you are interested.

We are big bird enthusiasts here, especially my husband. Death is part of nature and even if the cats weren't getting the birds, I'm sure some foxes would love the tasty treat.
Nothing amazes me more than when a person asks a question and says I'd like input except answers A or B and people jump all over them saying "you must do A or B". There's always the choice not to add input if it's not going to help the person asking the question.

http://www.birdfeeders.com/resources/wild-bird-articles/wild-bird-danger-series-vol-1-wild-birds-be-wary

Windows do kill birds but cats seem to kill as many or more.

Again:

Because some birds die from window strikes, your logic seems to be that it is OK to put the rest of them in any sort of danger. How is that acceptable logic? That is akin to saying that since some humans die in traffic accidents, we do not need police to protect us from murderers.

"Nothing amazes me more than when a person asks a question and says I'd like input except answers A or B and people jump all over them saying "you must do A or B". There's always the choice not to add input if it's not going to help the person asking the question."

I see what you mean. If somebody came on here and asked whether they should beat their children with a belt or with a switch, you just wouldn't chime in and say that maybe there are other ways to discipline or change behavior, and maybe they shouldn't beat them at all, right?

I wasn't going to say anything more until I saw the justification for continuing to feed the birds. I don't understand the mentality that a few bird loses are okay. Isn't the point of feeding and watching the birds a reflection of the admiration you have for them? But you're also willing to let some die so you can watch the rest and kitty can be happy? I find this really cruel.

I believe all life should be respected, no matter the species. I try to treat animals the same way I would treat humans. It's not right to let innocent animals die for your amusement, which is exactly what you are doing because you are fully aware that feeding the birds results in some being killed by the cat. There's a big difference between nature (hawks eating birds to survive) and humans luring birds to their unnecessary death.

little monkey, my comments were focused on the the cats. Not the birds. And you know it.

The birds are wild, that cats aren't. Doing what's best for the cats, who are entirely under your control, also happens to solve the bird problem. You know that too but don't like the best answer. There's no need to try to change the subject.

Snide, just because you believe all cats need to be indoors doesn't make it correct just YOUR opinion. You know what they say about opinions.....sigh....."we all got 'em"

There is now a huge trend to feed cats and dogs a raw diet, where do all these raw animals come from? Weren't they once alive? Really, what's the difference? Is it OK to feed a cat raw chicken but it's not OK for them to eat bird meat? I don't want to see a cat catch and kill a bird, but it's going to happen. And is it OK to kill a mouse or snake but it's not OK to kill a bird? What's the difference? The only real proper way to do this right would be to stop feeding the birds. What if you put the bird feeder inside of a cat proofed fence area that birds can get to but the cats cannot? Research cat proof fence containment area and it will tell you how to set the fence to where the cats cannot climb it. It's not impossible. It wouldn't have to be all that large either.

Now come on lucillle, a person's cat killing a birds is hardly even close to beating children. Do you feel the same sense of protection for all animals? Is it ok to kill mice for example? If the cat caught mice and left them at the doorstep is that wrong? Should that life still be respected? Do you purchase and eat meat from a grocery store? If so you are very likely supporting a industry that does not treat animals in a respected manner.

http://www.flap.org/pdfs/HierarchyofThreats.pdf

Link to the deaths due to window collision vs. cats

SnidelyWhiplash Actually no I didn't know you were referring to the cats. It's not like you were specific so how would I be able to read your mind?
Not sure how you think I'm trying to change the subject. I'm simply stated to Lisa that by providing an environment for the birds to feed and rest, she was in all likelyhood giving a far great number of birds nutrition than the amount killed by her cats.

Sorry Lisa about turning your question into a debate, that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to give you encouragement to keep providing nutrition for birds as the last few winters (in my area) for birds have been hard on them.

The difference between a raw diet and this situation is that the raw diet is to feed and nourish the cats. The birds are not a food source for the cats, as Lisa has indicated that they are well-fed already. The cats are killing for fun and because it's their instinct, not because they need to in order to survive. In my experience, cats that aren't hungry usually just kill them and leave them.

If Lisa didn't feed her cats, and they ate the birds to survive, it would be a different situation.

arkansas_girl looks like we were thinking along the same lines. LOL

arka, the original post concerned animal welfare, that was what I was talking about. More significant in the discussion has been blinders, not opinions, and we don't all have those.

Back on topic:

How do I stop my cats killing?

(Title of this thread)

Veganess has nothing to do with what the OP claimed she wanted, which was to stop her cats from killing birds.

I admit it is a difficult question since she put up 12 feeders which brought birds in droves, and then let the cats out. One has to either remove the birds or the cats from the area, there is no other answer.

"We are big bird enthusiasts here, especially my husband. Death is part of nature"

I believe pit bull fight enthusiasts use this same logic.

Lisaw2015 says in her original post "if they start creeping that way, I have a little pile of small stones I will throw at that to scare them from that area", well you just might want to have a big pile of big stones. That would certainly keep the cats away from that area, probably would solve your dilemma also. Probably would kill the cats also. And following your logic, it's only a couple of cats, and you would still be able to enjoy your bird feeding. So have a go at it, and let me know how it works out. Signing off from this discussion (or debate as some would call it).

My cats are indoor so I don't have this problem, but a few years back I hung a bird feeder in my yard and watched as a neighborhood cat try to go after the birds. I scared the cat off and promptly removed the bird feeder. While I can't control what happens in nature, I can in my own back yard. I hope you find a solution that works and doesn't harm the parties involved.

I think those of you that keep quoting me are mis-understanding what I am trying to say. I'm not all, "yippie, birds are dying." I'm trying to point out the fact that Lisa is providing a space that despite some birds be victims to the cats, the birds have a food, coverage in trees, acreage away from the city. The absolutely top two killers of birds are habitat loss and collisions with windows.
Sometimes, some of us have a tendancy in our culture to value the life of things we find cute. I know some of you would be upset regardless of what was being killed, but I wonder how many of you would be so upset if this was another creature, say a mouse or snake or a spider.

Yep littlemonkeys, no one stops to think of all the millions of animals that have died so we can clear cut the forests to build our lovely homes! UGH! Every time I see a lot of trees chopped down so they can build homes or businesses it just makes me sick! How many birds, squirrels, insects, rabbits etc etc lost their homes so they could put up that shopping center or new subdivision. But what really irks me is that there are thousands of homes and businesses just sitting vacant because it's not the popular part of town anymore. People????? SMH!!!!

Twelve feeders. I'm shocked at that. You have created an unnatural and unhealthy imbalance of birds in your vicinity. Do you keep these feeders clean? Are you keeping the fallen seed and hulls raked and disposed of? What about all of the bird feces?

It sounds like a disease and parasite-ridden haven you've got there. And I was disappointed with you using one feeder as bait. It's not healthy for the birds, the cats, nor you.

"The absolutely top two killers of birds are habitat loss and collisions with windows."

A brief search of the internet shows cats at the top or tied with window collision as the number one killer of birds. Pairing the word 'absolutely' with suspect statistics doesn't make your claim true.

" I'm trying to point out the fact that Lisa is providing a space that despite some birds be victims to the cats, the birds have a food, coverage in trees, acreage away from the city."

Wait, now we are actually supposed to praise this system where some of the birds are killed by the homeowner's cats who are deliberately let out to an area where the birds are deliberately given an incentive to collect via the bird feeders?

The cats themselves are at risk outdoors as well. It is an old debating trick to simply not address factors which do not support the debater's stance, and I notice that the cat's welfare isn't addressed as this conversation is trying to convince us all that we should disregard the cost in terms of bird lives lost in this supposed paradise.

Clearly this is beating a dead horse. Those have their idea that cats should live indoors cooped up for all their days so they can live to be 20 in prison. Then there are those that believe a cat should be allowed to live a life of fun and excitement if they are lucky enough to be out in the country. All I know is if I were a cat, I'd chose living in the country. I would hate being cooped up for all my days never allowed to leave the inside of a house...just shoot me now please.

lucillle While your brief internet search may have said that cats kill just as many birds. I found many sources to say the opposite, one of which I posted above for you, several posts ago if you go back.
You are completely twisting what I am saying. When did I ever praise that the birds are being killed? It's not like these birds will just sit there and rot. There are scavengers who feed on those birds like coyotoes, ravens, turkey vultures, and fox that all come to mind as all of those live right here on my property. Lisa all lives on of 25 acres, and though I don't know what wildlife she has there, I'm sure there are likely a few scavengers.

As far as the cats being outdoors, of course there's risk, but like anything in life, we all make personal choices. My personal choice is for my cats to stay indoors, hers is to allow them to go outside. 1st world problems people, 1st world problems. My neighbor and I both have sheep. He chooses to keep his indoors because he raises them for the organic market and it's too difficult to keep them certified organic if kept outside because they are exposed to pests that often need chemicals. I choose to allow my sheep to go outside and even with using pesticides have had some loss. So is it more humane to put your animals at risk for death or keep them lock in a barn where they they never get to do what sheep are made to do? Really there are negatives and positives to both so it really just comes down to choice, just like with having cats. And that choice should be a personal one, not one that a few passionate people tell you that you have to do.

I skipped to the bottom, why is the bell on the cat not an idea that would work for you? We have many bird feeders in our sub division. We have many who own cats and allow them to roam. We all have lots that are several acres. It is curious that I have never seen a cat stalking a bird feeder. Possibly it is because we have plenty of other things that interest them--ground gophers for one!! I vote for the bell--and give me a break on the collar on a cat. FIRST rule of pet owners should always be KEEP THEM IN YOUR OWN YARD. SECOND rule KEEP THEM OFF AND OUT OF MINE. If the collar is too dangerous TOO BAD.

Lisa asked for solutions, was given several, and will choose to continue allowing her cats to roam and kill birds. Good luck to your new cardinal friends!

So here it is Monday morning & I gave alot of thought to the situation over the weekend. Yes, while enjoying the birds AND my cats. I REFUSE to have indoor cats, it is NOT a option for me. In the warm months, my cats are outside 90% of the time. Forcing them to stay inside on a beautifully sunny day, when they would normally be lounging on the porch, is in MY opinion, animal abuse. I have no problem whatsoever with those who choose to keep theirs inside, my Mom does, as well as a friend. They live in apartments in town, it makes perfect sense, it does NOT make sense for my situation at all. Stop beating me up over this, seriously, I didn't ask if I should have indoor or outdoor cats people....

I was looking for idea's OUTSIDE of stopping the feeding or keeping cats inside. Thank you to those who understood my question, offered support and idea's, I do greatly appreciate it.

Also, when you have 25 acres, 12 feeders is not excessive, they are obviously not all in one area. I have 3 on the porch, 3 overhanging the brook & six hanging from various tree branches.

I would like to make another point, when I have run out of seed in the past (which I try very hard to never do because they squawk at me inccestantly to feed them!), the ground feeders are still there....these are the birds my cats TRY to catch and yes, they DO eat them (yuk!!)

As far as diseases....they are vaccinated for EVERYTHING, trust me, I have the vet bills to prove it!

I have and will continue to graciously accept your IDEA's :)

Edited to add that I picked up 2 collars with bells on Saturday, I am going to put them on them tonight & observe to see how they react.

lisa - I thought of another option the other day but did not want to post until things died down a bit.

My grandparents built a looong screened-in "catwalk" going off their back porch. I can't remember if it had a grass floor or if it was mulch of some kind. I do know that it wasn't concrete or stone. Pinocchio and Hopscotch loved it!

I think that it was more than one respondent that opined that the bells wouldn't work.

Can you hang a large tray under the feeders that'd catch all of the droppings that'd be high enough off of the ground that the cats couldn't have access? Though it'd be second choice for the ones who seek to feed on the ground ... it'd be preferable to becoming a meal for an unfriendly cat.

ole joyful

Thank you for buying the collars with the bells, at least it's worth a try. I watch the birdies from my kitchen window and it would be heartbreaking for me to see a cat catch and kill one. Right now we have the beautiful oriole songbirds out there enjoying the oranges and grape jelly. I so look forward to this time of year so I can see them and listen to their beautiful songs.

Poor birds. We are not beating you up - that would be calling you names or threatening you. But there are a lot of animal lovers on this board who have a different definition of cruelty than you do and who disagree with your "acceptable loss" attitude regarding the birds. I think it's wrong to not say something when I see cruel behavior regardless of the actual question, and feeding birds while letting the cats out is cruel to me.

When you post on public boards you can't dictate the types of responses you get.

Hopefully the bell collar is breakaway so the cats don't hang themselves.

chi83 I don't think anyone has a problem with you stating your opinion, but sometimes people get very worked up over THEIR opinion. And it is your opinion that it's cruel behavior. Not everyone sees it that way. It's no different to me than someone who is a vegan sees eating meat as cruel, while others do not. Lisa's not setting the seed out for the sole purpose of killing the birds. The birds that do die if not eaten by the cats will be scavenged. Scavengers eat the nastiest, oldest kills. I once had a coyote store a neighbor's dead cat in my shed. We found it half eaten. It had been hit by a car about 2 weeks earlier. A super disgusting find by the way.
I highly doubt anyone on here (unless a they are a psychopath) is taking pleasure in the birds death. Many of us do things in life that we don't view as ideal but it still happens. As humans we have the ability to weigh the pros and cons for us as individuals.

We raise all our own meat and kill the animals ourselves. I've had people tell me they could never do that, it's cruel to kill a friendly animal (yes one cousin claims she only eats mean cattle). My take is that it's kinder to allow an animal to live a happy life while you raise them. Do I take pleasure in having to butcher them, absolutely not, but we are meant to eat meat and I do enjoy the taste of it. The animals don't have to have transport stress before their death like all the meat you buy in a grocery store.

I have indoor cats and I do think it's cruel to force an animal that would in most cases rather be outside to stay inside their whole lives, however I still do it because we found for us there were greater cons to it being outside. Can you imagine how you would feel if you never got to set foot outside?

Just because you think your way is the right way, doesn't mean it's the right way for everyone.

https://secure.humanesociety.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=5929&s_src=web_id101933938#.VVIn8zgcTeQ

Littlemonkey, chi never said that her opinion was the 'only right way'.

I think it's unkind to bell the cat. If it's going to be outside, how is it supposed to dodge something hunting it?

Littlemonkey, that's exactly what I said. It's my opinion. I said "I think it's wrong" and "cruel to me". I didn't say everyone has to feel the same way, and I don't expect anyone else to agree with me but I'm going to share my opinion just like everyone else does, especially when it's something I feel very strongly about like cruelty to animals. I don't agree with your opinions either (about this situation or that humans are meant to eat meat) but you have the right to them. I think it's funny you're saying my way isn't the right way but you're giving tons of your own opinions on what's right instead.

When someone posts a topic where people have strong opinions, people are going to share those opinions. Sometimes people learn from others opinions, and sometimes they choose to follow their own. It's how conversations and debates work. It doesn't always follow the path that the OP intended.

And to your question about how I would feel about never going outside. I'm sure all animals would be happier outside. But as loving owners, it's our obligation to keep our animals safe. My cats would love nothing more than to eat all day, but I don't let them because they would get to an unhealthy weight that would negatively affect their health. They would also like to reproduce, but we get them spayed and neutered to help control the pet population. Both of these things would make them "happy" but I see it the same as letting cats outside - dangerous to their health.

Humans understand the dangers more than cats do and it's our duty to keep them safe from those dangers. And if someone is willing to trade their cat's happiness for a statistically shorter lifespan, then that's their choice but I don't believe it's part of responsible pet ownership.

Here's the thing -

Most Americans DON'T live on farms and don't personally hunt or kill animals. Those who don't, myself included, have different feelings and attitudes about the sanctity of animal life and animal welfare than farmers do.

I think the attitudes some of you express are appalling. You're welcome to have them, but if you're looking for conversations with those who see the world as you do, you probably need to go to some kind of farm or hunter forum. Your views are not widely held, nor widely agreed with.

(PS - if I understood the story above correctly, words can't express my reaction to the story the chap describes about being entrusted with the care of two dogs, feeling that keeping them indoors or restrained was abusive, but then later finding their bones as the victim of predators, but rationalizing that they were happy to run free? Are you friggin kidding me?)

1. When you tell someone what they are doing is wrong, you believe your way is the right way.

2.No matter what Lisa choses to do, someone will have a problem with it. Keep the casts inside, people have stated how cruel it is. Let the cats out, people have said it's cruel. She can't win either way.

3. I never said anyone's opinion is wrong. OF course people are totally entitled to feel however they want to. My point throughout the ENTIRE thread if you read is do what works for you. Chi83, I never said your way isn't the right way. I said that your way wasn't the right way for everyone. That's a huge difference.

4. Snidley I sure as heck hope you don't eat meat because if you do you are very ignorant about what animal welfare is. You say, "Most Americans DON'T live on farms and don't personally hunt or kill animals. Those who don't, myself included, have different feelings and attitudes about the sanctity of animal life and animal welfare than farmers do. " So what you are saying is that it's perfectly acceptable to go to the grocery store and purchase meat from animals that are often raise on feed lots, in pens that they can't even turn around in and battery cages is better than me raising my animals with birds allowed to free range, animals that have lots of space to graze and are fed primary grass and hay. That has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever heard in my life. But hey if that's how you feel it's a good thing you don't have to worry about eating the meat from my farm.

Hey! I think there should be a farmers/hunters forum! Great idea! I only wish I had the courage to start a small farm, I have dreamed of it for years. I envy you littlemonkeys3!

I will also add that Snidleys comment "I think the attitudes some of you express are appalling. You're welcome to have them, but if you're looking for conversations with those who see the world as you do, you probably need to go to some kind of farm or hunter forum. Your views are not widely held, nor widely agreed with" is likely not true....unless I am misinterpretating his meaning....don't we ALL of prefer fresh produce & farm raised Meat? (if we eat meat, of course)

Lisa, I haven't read the entire thread yet; I got as far as this statement from you:

They do not bother them at all in the winter & I feed them year round.

There's your solution: Stop feeding year round.

I know it's great fun to feed in spring and summer, watching the migrating birds come through. I did it myself for decades (with indoor cats), but had to stop when I learned I was attracting bears. When a bear killed one of my dogs, I took the feeders down. For the past 10 years or so, the feeders come down in early spring and go back up in November.

Feeding in the cold months gives us the satisfaction of knowing you're providing food for birds that might not otherwise obtain it. You might not think of it as the ideal way to feed, but at least you'd know that way you'd be doing nothing but good for them.

"".No matter what Lisa
choses to do, someone will have a problem with it. Keep the casts inside,
people have stated how cruel it is. Let the cats out, people have said it's
cruel. She can't win either way."

She is not a newbie, and she
initiated the thread. Lots of different opinions and you would expect
that here.

" I think it's wrong to not say
something when I see cruel behavior regardless of the actual question, and
feeding birds while letting the cats out is cruel to me.

When you post on public boards you
can't dictate the types of responses you get."

I agree.

"4. Snidley I sure as heck hope
you don't eat meat because if you do you are very ignorant "

There are a lot of words to describe
Snidely, ignorant is not one of them.

Calling someone ignorant is
taking off your 'nice' gloves and getting down, because it will

** never **

result in a meeting of the minds when you put someone
down.

Lucille, I think you are just picking to pick. IMO snidely threw off those gloves as soon as he said that farmers don't value animal welfare. (Hope all you farmers on the forum read that part, you all don't care about animals. You feed cities and bust your ass 365 days a year without a vacation because you don't care about animals)

You said while quoting me,

"4. Snidley I sure as heck hope you don't eat meat because if you do you are very ignorant "

There are a lot of words to describe Snidely, ignorant is not one of them." If you want to quote my words, why not actually quote them, not twist them. Use the full sentence, don't take it out of context. My exact words were, "Snidely I sure as heck hope you don't eat meat because if you do you are very ignorant about what animal welfare is" I did not call him ignorant as a person. I'm not even sure at this point how many times you have changed the meaning of my exact words, but I have no problem in continue to clarify for you.

My previous 2 cats were outdoor cats and both became the meal of another predator - the coyote. My current cats are indoor cats but one of them does get out on the odd occasion and to thank me has, a couple of times, brought me his prey as a present - a bird.

Our decks are enclosed and so they can go outside but are confined.

Again, Snidely didn't say that farmer's don't care about animal welfare. He said, "Those who don't, myself included, have different feelings and attitudes
about the sanctity of animal life and animal welfare than farmers do."

He's saying farmers have a different opinion about animal life and welfare than non-farmers. I agree with that. I don't know how farmers can talk about how cute a calf is only to kill it and eat it later. And naming animals, treating them like pets and then killing them later. I will never understand how people can do that, even though I fully support humanely raised meat over factory farming any day. I just wish there wasn't any meat being raised at all. And yes, I've been a vegetarian for 17 years.

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n1/full/ncomms2380.html

I also like the catery or catwalk approach.

My very first cats were indoor pets, my apartment companions. Happy as clams, they lived for many happy, active years.

Later on, we moved into a more rural environment and we opted for a cat door and an indoor/outdoor life for our cats. They all appeared to be very happy, actually spending most of their time inside whenever we were home. They loved the outdoors, no question.

And so began years of testing for and treating numerous diseases, plus tapeworms, hookworms, roundworms, heartworms, fleas, ticks, cat scratch illness, and ringworm (fungus). Makes me a little ill when I think of it. Gosh, all of the visitors, young and old, that I exposed to these issues.

I developed ringworm on two occasions, and had a long, debilitating bout of cat scratch illness on another. This was before the days of the powerful chemical treatments we now shower our outdoor pets with to prevent a few of those infestations so we had to fight flea infestations on the cats and in the home......even more exposure to chemicals.

But if cats are eating birds and rodents (and who knows what else), they WILL end up with an assortment of internal parasites as well as other stuff that can infect their owners. You cannot vaccinate against everything. Be mindful, too, that humans can host some of these internal worms.

Again, my cats are vaccinated for everything...I also use Diatomaceous Earth, no chemicals for flea and tick control. I also regularly "inspect" their behinds, I know what to look for (worms).

Update on the collars: Momma cat is wearing hers, no problems (yes, breakway collars) but Daughter cat got hers off within 24 hours...maybe buy another & try again...maybe not. FWIW - we have been TRYING to only let them out when we are out with them, slightly successful.

Again. You can't vaccinate for 'everything'. And for the health of your cats, they should be tested for all of the kinds of worms that they can get from birds, rodents, lizards, crickets, etc. REGULARLY, because only the tape worm is shed in segments. I'm afraid that you don't know what to look for. Some can be detected in stool samples, others from a blood test.

Anyway, best of luck to you. I'm happy to know that your cats are loved.

Perhaps if you planted lots of native shrubs offering berries and seeds, you wouldn't need twelve feeders. You'd be providing additional cover and roosting opportunities, too.

Our vet de-worms the cats every year at their check ups, just in case. They are indoor/outdoor cats and always get good check-ups. Ages - 12,12,4 and 3. Also, you can make your own breakaway collars. If you're interested, I can give you a link to a tutorial that also tells you where to buy the plastic hardware.

My vet also de-worms them every year because they are outside cats.....anywhoooo...moving along

Thought I'd just share what the Humane Society recommends regarding feeding wild birds. Birdfeeding