Congrats you are starting off using an excellent gardening method. Staking is not normally used in this style of gardening because the soil should be very soft. I was amazed to find that using strings run up to fabricated supports as recommend by Mel in his first book worked surprisingly well.

I suggest that you read and then read some more. Start with the FAQs here and look for Mels first book - used on Amazon they are really cheap. The 2nd edition has far too many errors in it - esp for a first time gardener.

Actually you can stake, in fact this is quite common with sfg. By staking you can run a single stem up the stake and keep the plant to just 1ft without the big trellis. Mel does not discuss this specifically in his book, but he does discuss vertical gardening, which is exactly what staking is. He goes into staking discussion throughout his blogs and website though. IMO It is the easiest way to fit a bunch of tomatoes in the garden by keeping a indeterminate to a single foot. I have my stakes attached to the box itself using conduit coupling. You can also drive the stake into the ground below your box if you want. You can see below where I have 7 tomatoes, 5 peppers, one egg plant, 4 lettuce, and I will have sugar baby watermelon growing up that trellis soon. this is a 2x8 box. This will be my third year using this configuration. This was taken about a week ago.

.

gumby_ct: Thank you! I will read up more on SFG FAQs as I haven't done that, and check out Mel's book as well.

planterjeff: Your configuration gives me a lot of hope! Do you have any more pictures from previous years?

My plot is going to be enclosed on all sides because the community garden has a big squirrel problem. Everyone's plots looks like tall chicken coops :)

I wonder how ridiculous it would look if I were to install 1 door on the north side and 1 door on the west side of the plot to access the plants easily without having to carve out precious space within the plot?

It seems this will be a challenge for you in the space you have.

The nice thing about gardening you can do whatever fits you and your space.

The below is taken from the FAQ page which was taken from Mels first book.

<An upside-down U made from electrical conduit or other pipe works well
and doesn't break the bank (3/4" copper plumbing pipe used for this
purpose is a little more expensive but very nice-looking). To support
the individual plants, string is tied horizontally just above ground
level and then vertically between the top bar and bottom string. Nylon
is recommended to prevent rotting.>

I used 2x2 wood for the uprights and 1x2, 1x3, or 2x2 for the cross piece. I thought the wood was not only more affordable but easier to work with. I used whatever I had on hand.

I used a combination of sheet rock screws and carriage bolts (w/wing nuts) long enuff to hold the pieces together. The bolts will require drilling first and a cordless screw gun is always handy.

I used nylon string the first year after that I used jute twine which only lasts a year but did last the whole season and makes cleanup easier as the jute will compost IF that is what you choose to do.

I only ran a string down to the plants (tomato, cukes, or other vines) - I did not run one horizontally. You just wrap the plant around the string each day or when it is long enuff.

I am not an aggressive pruner by any means but I was really impressed how well this method held up to the hurricane winds when the plants were weighed down with fruit in Aug/Sep. So impressed I have used this method each year since 2002.

<Mel includes extensive info on this method in his book and website.> This referred to his 'old website' as that is when these FAQs were written.

http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions/2766689/how-do-i-trellis-veggies

For more SFG FAQs...

http://faq.gardenweb.com/forums/square-foot-gardening-faq

HTH

So very helpful gumby_ct! Thanks so much.

The above pictures have me envious. When I put in my stakes last year, I didn't think to make them even reasonably straight or keep my garden nearly that neat. But stakes work and I can attest to conduit too---string directly to the plant or trellis. My trellis is still standing and ready for this year.

2 thoughts....

First, read Mel's first book, then read the second edition. They are both worth a read. The first edition is really good, the second edition has useful updates.

Second, with it being a community garden you probably won't want to plant something that you want to check on daily, so unless your garden is a very short walk away keep that in mind. Mine is in my backyard, and I literally check it twice a day. In the morning to check water levels, pest damage, and for harvests/production and in the evening to make sure it's not too dry from the heat/wind of the day. The tomatoes are my specific concern, I keep a very close eye on those :)

Mine would be a a couple of blocks walk. Very do-able.

I really need to read Mel's books. Off to Amazon!

This is the edition you want - http://www.amazon.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-Garden-Space/dp/1579548563/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1430620573&sr=8-2&keywords=square+foot+gardening

I see a cheap price on the hardcover but def buy used - not new.

Actually that link above looks like it has the wrong picture the edition you want is 1981 NOT 2005. 2005 has too many errors.

Here's one for $.075 http://product.half.ebay.com/Square-Foot-Gardening-by-Mel-Bartholomew-1981-Paperback-Revised/171313&tg=info

Thanks for the link, gumby_ct! I bought it yesterday. Can't wait to read it.

It is my understanding that the growing medium in the 1981 edition is much different than the 2005 edition. In the 2005 edition, the growing medium is 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3 peat moss, 1/3 compost (made from at least 5 different sources of compost).

Some years back the errors were listed in this forum. One I clearly remember was planting summer squash (zucchini) in a 1ft square. In my garden summer squash can take up a 4x4ft box, and then some when it is happy and in FULL sun and adequate nutrients. But that was a change from the old book.

I know the peat adds no nutrients to the mix so can be left out. But the mixture listed above is what I recall from the old book.

Gumby is spot on with everything they stated. But to be fair, neither peat nor vermiculite add nutrients but they are there for a reason. 1st and foremost is water retention. From there the vermiculite adds to the friability of the soil where as the peat helps balance the PH of the compost and adds a slight acidity that most plants thrive in. This acidity is also crucial for the element phosphorus to be broken down. The peat addition puts the ph between 6-7 whereas compost can be (although not always) quite alkaline around a PH of 8-9 by itself. Some people choose to bypass both the vermiculite and the peat, and still have favorable results. As you can tell there is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to SFG. The squash comment above is also very accurate, but again you can stake a squash plant and take it verticle. Once you do this you can keep it to one foot with frequent pruning of lower branches, keeping only new growth and fruit intact. if you look at my pictures i posted above from the last years, you can make out a yellow straight neck squash grown this way in the top picture. It is on the top tier in the back left. You can see a wooden stake and then a squash plant that looks like it is hovering. There are also pictures of people doing it in 1 square foot her on Gardenweb. It just takes work. I refused to prune frequently so I kept it to a 1.5x2ft area that year. The nice part about sfg is that you can take what you want from it and leave the rest. I try to stick pretty close to it, but Ill admit, I add fertilizers throughout the year. I can't help but to mix up some compost tea and meddle a little.

planterjeff, how many squash would you say you harvested from the staked plant above? I have zucchini I want to stake but I suppose I could plant them on an edge of the bed too. Golden midget and butternut squash are either going to be trellised or allowed to spill over the bed.

I really need to get both editions of Mel's book before next season---but I never would have found Garden Web if I read the books first.

One additional note for those growing summer squash or zucchini:

These plants are short season because the are killed by the Squash Vine Borer (SVB). So you can either plant more squash or something else in its place.

Much has been written about the SVB so if you need more info just Google that but suffice it to say if you are growing a hollow stem squash plant it will be affected by this parasite unless you use a row cover or pesticide that will normally kill the bees trying to pollinate these plants.

I find it much easier to just plant more squash for two reasons:

1. After July 4th the SVB is gone for the season

2. When using a row cover you have to hand pollinate any blossom before noon or you get no fruit. And who is to say the SVB won't enter while the cover is up?

Winter squash plants are not affected.

HTH

I don't really have a number, but it supplied more than we could eat once it started harvesting. It probably had 2-3 female flowers form each week during the growing season. It eventually succumbed to the svb as mentioned by gumby. I even had the base wrapped in foil and protected by a tp roll. There is no stopping them without a floating row cover here in GA. They seem to be around all summer down here because they even got my pumpkins that I planted on the fourth of July.

Thanks for the information! And to think the worst pest I noticed last year was a few aphids and a single tomato hornworm(I looked for more but to no avail).

Hello everyone! I hit a big snag while clearing out the raised bed yesterday. I dug about another 6 inches and discovered that it's all bricks underneath the bed.

This is a community garden with strict rules. I can't build up to make the bed to at least 18-24inches deep.

How do I plan my little plot now? Won't I need 18-24in depth for tomatoes?

The plot will be completely enclosed with chicken wire (squirrel problems). I will have a little door and some space enough to move around inside.

Any thoughts?

Thoughts?
1st is there a chance you could get another spot?
If not ask for a refund?
If not don't take this spot next year.
Ask for an exception to go up?
If the above were all denied you would think they would allow an exception as I am sure someone there knew about this.

Is it the remains of a building under the soil? Has anyone checked for soil contamination - I would ask as in the 'ol days things were dumped right on site.

Where exactly on this glorious planet in this 'garden spot' located?

As a last resort go ahead with things as planned. How deep will the soil be?

You only need six inches anyway. This is very clear in Mel's book. You see my lower tier box in the picture up there? 6-7 inches of soil over an old cobblestone alleyway.I have maybe an inch of native soil above the old brick.

Let me specify,the six inch reference is in Mel's new book, "All New Square Foot Gardening". I think me and Gumby and my main differences in opinions come from the fact that I go by and like the new version where as Gumby goes by and likes the original version. The new version is all about six inches of depth, mel's mix, using permanent grids, no additives, and building up to get more plant in less space. This is why Mel's spacing is more aggressive in this version. I personally wouldn't sweat it, and just make sure the container is filled to the top. Mel actually encourages building bottoms on his new 6 inch deep boxes in order to make them portable and weed proof. So, you really have no issues.

I'm gonna give it a go.

The community garden is in NYC. It used to have an apartment building but it burned down back in the 70's, and it was abandoned until someone turned it into a garden in '97. They are vigilant about soil testing, and send the members results every time they get it tested. So far, no problem (as in, when they found contaminants many years ago, Parks Dept. fixed the problem). The soil gets tested every couple of years.

That said, should I still plant all my tomatoes on the north side of the plot?

iirc Mel was the first to point out the differences and said they were caused by the publisher. He called them errors, iirc.

Let me say that I have never learned a thing from someone who always agrees with me, never.

That said, gardening is most wonderful because everyone can do what they choose with their garden. It is all about experience, what works for one may not work for another, and so on.

Now gardening in a 5 gal bucket can be portable but not in a 4ft x 4ft box, I don't care how deep it is.

Again, iirc, Mels whole concept with 6in depth was if all the nutrients the plant needs are available in 6 inches of soil the roots would not continue to seek them. I have not gardened in a box with a 6in bottom but I would guess that many plants would not hold in the vertical position in 6in of soil when loaded with late season fruit.

But then you get people who make their own mix and call it "Mel's Mix" when it is not and may be deficient in some ways.

When I started SFG I placed my 4x4's on the soil of my row garden and
went from there. No special soil, no special depth. I evaluated it that
first year and sold my tiller the next year (and I don't miss it).

<That said, should I still plant all my tomatoes on the north side of the plot?>
A lot would depend on the sun - will they get 5-6 hours of "direct sunlight" each day? Not shaded or filtered sun but direct sunlight. Tomato plants without direct sunlight will not produce fruit - lots of foliage just no fruit.

Can you talk to whoever gardened there before?

I think if the plants get all the nutrients they need you will do OK. You will likely need to water at least daily - I water mine twice a day to avoid blossom end rot and splitting tomatoes following a rain storm. If, for some reason, they don't get enuff water and you know a rain storm is coming - get the fruit off the plant so they won't split.

You should also plan another way to support the plants (assuming they are indeterminates). It may be better to plant patio or bush type determinate tomato plants.

I am guessing all the plots there have this shallow brick lined bottom?

I don't know if the 12 inches on your 'map' is correct or if we are talking half that depth? If it is a foot or so, cherry type tomatoes should do quite well. I had 6 plants along the north side of an 8 foot bed in roughly that much soil with hard clay underneath. They were over my head by the end of summer(planted small transplants on Memorial Day). If I recall, I pinched them off because I didn't want to pull out the ladder. Because I didn't understand 'suckers' and pruning when I planted, I had stems that I could not trellis so I tied them to the top of stakes that already held pepper plants. My point? lol. As gumby said, supports and frequent watering may be necessary but it is doable. There are plenty of ways to garden and really, the only way to know what will work is to experience it first hand. :)

Gumby_ct: the north side definitely gets 6+ hours of direct sun. I think some parts of the garden have bricks underneath the beds like mine. Then there are parts that are either brick-free or bricks that are buried deeper. There are cherry blossom trees and fruit trees in different areas of the garden.

The tomatoes I have for planting are all indeterminates.

Apache RP: I went back to the garden to double check, and I think I have 12 inches of soil, then about 2-3 inches of hard clay, then bricks.

I have 2 cherry tomatoes and 3 or 4 marvel-striped toms. I'll stake them and prune suckers.

You're both absolutely right though, I can't know how things will turn out until I try. Crossing my fingers!

Thank you so much for being so helpful.

I came here last year---under a similar name I can't remember---asking about root space for indeterminate cherries. Everyone had different preferences with a few saying I shouldn't bother because why prune and cut production? I watched videos of the same in containers where people great success when others said it wasn't possible. In the end, my brain didn't settle until I learned from my own garden.

What I found was the space in the bed/vertically is far more important than root space---I realize that sounds ridiculous to some here---but it was my experience given healthy soil, sun and water needs covered. The root balls were healthy and plenty big(didn't appear to crowd each other at all) when I pulled them at season's end. Again, the soil depth was the similar to yours. They were on the north side at 16 inch spacing so two/three stems per plant worked well(trellised) but I had many more stems as I said on the south side. One or two stems should work per sq foot---more if your super adventurous/have the space but beware...it can quickly get out of hand. From what you described, I would be concerned if the garden rules prohibit how high your tomatoes can go or limitations you might have with the covering you are creating...given that some indeterminate tomatoes will just keep going and going. I used sun gold and black cherry for reference. My new experiment this year? Sowing everything from seed and seeing what happens. :)

I saw a you-tuber who lowered the top of his primary stem so he could reach it. He had this great long coil of stick with the old growth pruned off. This made that one single stem too fat and too heavy and it got choked hanging its own weight on the support string. The results of this experiment, not his words but mine, is when you get close to the height of the primary stem that you want to reach upto, declare one of those suckers lower down on the plant to be the primary stem. Top off that over tall sucker, oh it wasn't a sucker before, but you just decided that it is now. Your tomato will put all of its growing energy in the tip that you've left for it to work with. if you get behind in your pruning and one of your side suckers makes flowers (quote fruit) then just top it right after the flowers and it won't hurt the fruiting. Keeping at least 1 succer as an active stem may make it easier to switch whenever the last primary gets over grown. Those suckers you pop off can be rooted someplace else in your patch if you find you have extra room.

HTH and sorry if I just over complicated the whole thing

Something else I did when I first started SFG was to make plant spacing templates. I just stumbled across them so this reminded me.

Go to this link you will see there are patterns that repeat.
http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions/2766684/what-are-recommended-plant-spacings <scroll down to see the patterns>

This is very helpful information from Mel's website on converting standard seed spacings to sqft spacing:"Depending
on the mature size of the plant, grow 1, 4, 9, or 16 equally spaced
plants per square foot. If the seed packet recommends plant spacing be
12 inches apart, plant one plant per square foot. If 6 inch spacing; 4
per square foot. If 4 inch spacing; 9 per square foot. If 3 inch
spacing; 16 per square foot."

I used cardboard and roofing shingles but plywood, linoleum, or something else you have on hand will do. Make the holes 1.5-2" or large enuff to poke a finger thru the hole to mark the spot in the soil.

This is more a winter time project but if you use something you can write on you can mark the plants that use that spacing. When in doubt check the seed packet for the recommended plant spacing. <NOT row spacing>

Something you can do on the fly is to mark a piece of lumber (1x2) or pvc pipe. I use a 4ft length and mark the 1ft and 6inch increments. I made a couple so I can crisscross then in the beds.

Both my pieces are white to help me find them when I leave them behind.

HTH

Hello again! If you mulch your beds, do you do it before or after planting?

I need to mulch (using straw), but since I'm directly sowing radish seeds in some parts of the bed, I'm not sure if they can come up through the straw?

I mulch after I've direct sowed and the seeds have sprouted, but I suspect the radishes should push through the straw unless you had a very thick mat.

Plant, let them sprout to their first true leaves and then mulch. This will help prevent fungal issues and such.

Gumby, can you reference where Mel said the 6 inches is an error? The entire new book and every one of his personal posts from 2010 on say 6 inches is all you need. In fact there are a few in 2013 where he defended the 6 inches against critics in both articles and the comments on his personal Facebook page. Does he just keep pushing it even though it is an Error. I have noticed that Mel has all but dropped off the face of the planet over the past two years, so who knows. On another topic, I actually found the old copy from the 80's on a bookshelf in my house. The one that was listed as the companion to the PBS special. The biggest differences that I could notice was he has moved away from in ground, and moved to raised beds/six inches/and some updated spacing.

I am getting old and forgetful can you refresh what it is you are referring to?

I could be wrong but I think jeff is referring to root space---6 inches was claimed more recently as opposed to whatever Mel said back when I was literally a baby. Yikes. Sad to hear that he has seemingly dropped of the planet though.

So I planted everything from seed and while it has gone well, I don't think I like direct sowing. I would rather have the control of starting seeds indoors and transplanting to utilize as much of my planting space as possible. I also don't care to over plant then have to thin seeds---it seems like a waste to me? Being a newbie, I learn these things so thought I might pass it on. Oh, I also learned about volunteer seeds. :)

Thanks for the advice. I planted my eggplants and peppers, and directly sowed my radish seeds on Friday, only to get flooded with the torrential rain we've had for the past couple of days (and it's still raining).

I did check weather for rain, I just had no idea that it would be that much. *sigh*

"So I planted everything from seed and while it has gone well, I don't
think I like direct sowing. I would rather have the control of starting
seeds indoors and transplanting to utilize as much of my planting space
as possible."

Except certain things, mostly root crops but even cucurbits and brassicas if you start them inside too early or let them grow in small pots too long, don't take to transplanting well.

"I also don't care to over plant then have to thin seeds---it seems like a waste to me?"

You'll get over that when you space carrot seeds perfectly only to have a few sprout, leaving a lot of empty space. Seed is cheap and in my opinion it's better to over plant slightly and have to thin them than risk not having hardly anything sprout.

Rodney

I understand this. Certain crops do well with direct sowing but I've had contrary to the norm experiences to date. Carrots and onions and beets---eh, not as great as I hoped despite over seeding. Radishes all sprouted though using same method. Same with zuch, watermelon and winter squash---the seedlings I have had to pull that I hate because they weren't cheap and frankly, I'd love lots of all three---and both marigolds and nasturtiums too.

My comment context is on several fronts. I did all transplants last year from mail order and a nursery. It was not cost effective but only one seedling of 15-20 didn't make it. This year was all direct sowing in contrast minus the yarrow left from last year. So yes, seed is cheap overall but I have empty space where I over seeded and not enough space where I counted each individual seed---100% germination with those seeds to be exact so I moved what I could to empty pots with crap soil to see how they do. It was a simple observation that others might find useful/intriguing because there is no right or wrong way to garden and why not share? But thanks for the information.

I read in Mel's book that he lays the tomatoes on their sides and tucks a bit of soil under the 'top' so that a couple of inches are pointing out of the soil. The plant will eventually straighten itself out and all of the tomato plant under the soil will develop roots. This enables the plants to grow extensive root systems in shallow soil.

Given the discussion, I am curious how your garden is doing stef? I have another post here where I am adding a few pictures of my garden if anyone is curious about planting from seed versus transplants.

Apache: I apologize for taking too long to respond to your post. Between fishing and gardening plus chicken chores, it has been quite a busy summer!

my little plot is doing quite well. Not bad for a first timer

I ended up with 5 tomato plants (San Marzano, black Krim, marvel stripe, yellow pear cherry & sweet 100). They all grew out of the enclosure, so I have tomato plants that are about 15ft tall.

I also planted 2 sweet Italian peppers, 2 chili rellenos, 3 little finger eggplants, 1 long purple eggplant, 1 collard greens, 2 Dino kale, 3 Russian dwarf kale, 4 water spinach, 3 parsley, 4 Thai basil, and 5 genovese basil.

should I post pics here?

Oh I also planted 3 Swiss chard, 2 cilantro, and French breakfast radishes here and there.

One more: 1 bitter melon (bitter gourd)

I know the feeling of being busy. :) So many projects, so little time. Sounds like a great turn out though!

Stef, I've enjoyed your questions and the answers given to them here. I plan to try my first SFG this spring.

Absolutely late in posting last year's garden but here's a couple...

May (3rd week)

July

August (I was very diligent about pruning suckers, otherwise this would've looked a lot worse)

Black Krim, San Marzano, Yellow Pear, Sweet 100

Marvel Striped

Burgundy okra (not planting okra this season.... Not much yield at all)

Early September

Im pretty sure this was taken in June

Bittermelon (August)

Looks like you go some great yields from your garden last year! And good plan to build a fence around it. I've been edible gardening for years but this year is my first SFG and I've enjoyed all the comments/advice on this post. We built a custom raised bed in our backyard with a permanent "roof" to keep out rabbits and squirrels (using galvanized wire mesh). I hope it works!