Not many gas ranges have "true convection" as they run off 120V. You aren't going to be able to put a very powerful heating element in there, certainly not one that can handle the whole oven on its own like actual European ovens where the concept originated. And no Bluestar's weird flame around the convection fan thing on the Platinum does not count as true convection. They don't even try to sell it as such.

Including electronic controls? No way, a huge reason many people buy this type of range is its lack of electronic controls. Everyone has smartphones now anyway, might as well use that for a timer (and then there's no risk of you not hearing it when you're in another room). That's what I do even though my range has 2 electronic timers.

No Bluestar ranges have self cleaning. The only all gas Thermador ranges with self cleaning are the 27" deep Pro Grand series, which are considerably more expensive than the Wolf AG and not even available in 30" width.

So, maybe not quite as uncompetitive as it may seem. Still, I hear you on glide racks and BTUs, although the BTU change in the dual fuel was a very recent thing. Up until now they were the same. I wouldn't be surprised if in not too long they update the AG as well.

Bottom line is, you aren't the target customer for this range. Nothing wrong with that, I'm not either. But, for someone who wants excellent low side performance (which the Wolf gas sealed burners excel at no matter the BTUS), infrared broiler (which the DF does not have), excellent build quality and customer service (areas where they cremate many other appliance manufacturers, even high end), and doesn't mind the red knobs or Wolf badge in their kitchen either, it's a great choice.

As for the value proposition - you can throw that out the window when buying any high end appliance. Yes, on average they perform better and are built better, but not so much so to solely justify the enormous price premium over regular appliances. No matter which one you get, a lot of what you're paying for are the looks, the brand names, and the small economies of scale. If this were a truly rational purchase you would not be looking at any of these brands.

"caines9579

Yes, yes, the blue enamel has a chipping problem. (Actually, that problem seems more related to the design of the DF oven box/electric heat elements and not the color of the enamel, as such?)"

____

i think there is something with the adherence of the blue. I have had three different brands of blue that had issues. They were all a little bit different problems but never had any issues with 20 plus other ovens in my life.

My one big issue with the Wolf is that they don't incorporate the M series oven technology in their ranges. Given the price point of the range, I am disappointed that it does not include this interface and technology. If they can make it work in the oven, there should be no reason it cannot work in the range, Miele did it. If they did, I would probably be buying a Wolf rather than a Miele now as I did love my old Wolf DF.

As for the blue oven, people definitely appreciate that feature whether it is a marketing gimmick or not. That and the red knobs really give the Wolf an impressive appearance in a kitchen (of course the blue oven is less obvious). I will miss both in my new range. I just could not buy essentially the same range as my 2004 Wolf DF for more money.

I'm not sure that the corner fans in the M, are an improvement. Did you see the thread about uneven cookies? They also seem to have left off the convection bake mode which I used all the time. It is a lower speed fan. I wonder if they just have a single fan speed now.

They seemed to have left the AG in a similar state. They discontinued the semi open burner tray and have added none of the little niceties one would like to have as stated above. My DIL just pulled the trigger on a Bosch AG 30 inch range. and it has more BTUs, a third element with the convection fan and self clean.

My one big issue with the Wolf is that they don't incorporate the M series oven technology in their ranges.

That's the SubZero/Wolf way of doing things. You aren't their target customer. They tend to avoid the bleeding edge and stick with the tried-and-true. Except for the blue porcelain, we can just call that tried lol. Anyhow, some people find their approach refreshing compared to the rest of the industry. Others can't fathom paying these prices for products that are so behind-the-times technology wise. It's just a matter of which camp you fall into.

I'm not sure that the corner fans in the M, are an improvement.

Yeah that's the other thing... besides the potential chipping fix, is the M really an improvement just because it's newer technology? I won't comment on noise level, baking evenness or the new fan design since I've never used it. But other than the new cavity design, all the changes are either cosmetic or electronic. OK it looks nicer. OK, it has a touchscreen which may or may not be more difficult to use for everyday tasks. OK, it has preprogrammed modes for people who don't cook. At the end of the day, how much of a difference does that stuff make?

I feel differently about the Miele DF ranges because those have technology that actually improves the core function of the product - cooking! And isn't that what a range is all about anyway. Built in speed oven, moist assist in the big oven, wireless probe... not necessary features by any means but all things I could see myself using.

My DIL just pulled the trigger on a Bosch AG 30 inch range. and it has more BTUs

To be fair, that's probably on only one burner. I would guess that the Wolf, even with the 15K burners, would be more powerful across the board. But of course she's still getting a lot more for her money with the Bosch.

I am tempted by the Miele's technology. This is probably going too far afield from this thread, but I would be interested to hear if people actually use (or trust?) all the preprogrammed cooking modes in the Miele. Do you really get a superior result? I am enough of a curmudgeon that I might hesitate to rely on newfangled technology in place of tried and true methods. (Which perhaps makes me a Wolf target customer? Hmm.)

Yes it is on one burner but, it is there. I am anxious to see what it is like. She is just learning to cook.

On AG, love an infrared broiler and will greatly miss mine on my current stove. Went electric for evenness and the small selection of gas wall ovens. Wolf showroom treated all gas as a stepchild for sure, BTW. Broiled chicken in the electric for me to taste and said I could get almost the same result. Purchased a Wolf combi steam and an E Series wall oven to be installed. Wolf distributor Clarke assured me that the chipping was resolved, but now I am wondering, ugh. Also said if properly cared for and there was an issue, Wolf would correct it. When I see 4.5 year life span posts I cringe. A lot of money for a short time. Their site says 20 years! (My current AG stove is almost 25+ years old and working.)

The E series cavity is unchanged. The M series cavity has been completely redesigned and there have been no reports of chipping yet. I would change your order to the M series if possible.

Hvtech, thanks for the details. I wish I could, but I can't. It was a clearance, brand new, black oven which has been delivered. I have a 3 year Wolf warranty. If it chips, hoping it happens during that time. If it happens after that, I have the emails referencing they said they would stand behind it. Feeling foolish for trusting them.

I don't understand how the distributors get away with propagating these lies. You are not the first person to be told it was fixed years ago.

If it does chip down the road, I would pay them extra to upgrade to an M series replacement, rather than taking another E.

I don't want to make you feel bad about what you bought though. Take comfort in the fact that there are people who have owned them for a while and not run into trouble. Enjoy your new oven!

htc2015.....You mentioned the Wolf showroom treats the AG like a step child. How so? I am just curious about what you observed. Thanks!

Hvtech42, I want to know and be prepared. Thank you! This is a substantive amount of money, which I cannot afford to be for a headache. Sometimes I think I should have bought a $1200 gas range slide in. Tools help but the cook's skills make the meal.

Charon70, they appear to promote electric first. Gas oven wasn't a lead with product but that may have only been my experience. You should not be influenced by my perceptions. Go to a showroom if you can. Your experience may be different. Good luck!

hvtech42,

Bold statement calling the distributors liars. What is your first hand experience with a Wolf duel fuel range or electric oven? Not trying to call you out. I truly want to know if you have personal experience or if all your information comes from reading the same forum post I am reading.

htc2015,

I too am in the market for a range. Relative to Wolf, I have spoken with: The Company, my local showroom, my local authorized service provider, my general contractor, and my appliance store whom I am spending far more with than the price of a Wolf range and they sell all the other popular brands. In addition to all of that I have read everything I can read on the internet about each of the ranges I have considered. My only concern with the Wolf duel fuel range is whether or not I would enjoy a double griddle more over the single griddle.

I've said it before and will again. In all my internet research I can not find 50 people with 50 Wolf ranges that have this chipping issue. I'd estimate there are at least 500,000 Wolf ranges sold and in use over the last 15 or so years.

Every appliance has negative reviews. Someone has had issues with every model of every appliance. No manufacturing process is perfect.

My research concludes that there was a blue porcelain issue several years ago and that issue was fixed. Also, seems there have been a few individuals who have had issues with their blue porcelain from time to time. The incidence rate of all of this is extremely low.

Again, all this is simply based on my research. Everyone could be lying to me and there truly is a massive and fully recognized issue with the blue porcelain that effects thousands and thousands of ranges and Wolf's master plan is to destroy their name, bankrupt the company and move everything over to China. Time will tell. In the interim I got to get back to deciding on that griddle size :-)

"My research concludes that there was a blue porcelain issue several years ago and that issue was fixed. "

____

There was a case just posted that was a DF that was two years old with the problem. What proof do you have that the issue is fixed. A current lawsuit involves ovens manufactured since 2011.

" The incidence rate of all of this is extremely low"

The incidence rate is unknown.

It is reported on this forum that some people had 3 wall ovens in a row that all failed, so that sampling was 100%.

It is known that if you pay a huge unknown amount to replace the lining, they will only guarantee it for a year. If I were in Wolf's position, and this "had" been an issue and it was fixed, I would be standing firmly behind the blue porcelain.

The line that it has been fixed or that only a very few were affected has been often repeated through the years, yet new cases show up? If it is so rare why doesn't Wolf make good on those cases and then you have very loyal fans instead of irate customers. If so rare this would be a small expense in the scheme of things. Anyone can have a problem but it is how you are treated by the manufacturer that tells all.

I bought my range and was told that they would always stand behind their products. I lived in that confidence for 41/2 years.

Bold statement calling the distributors liars. What is your first hand experience with a Wolf duel fuel range or electric oven? Not trying to call you out. I truly want to know if you have personal experience or if all your information comes from reading the same forum post I am reading.

Not a Wolf owner, but I have read and heard about the exact same thing happening again and again here and elsewhere for enough years that I know all I need to know about it. There are 2 class action lawsuits currently being put together about this problem. As I said earlier, not everyone has had the issue, but I believe that the risk is significant enough to consider with such an expensive product, when there are so many other oven and range options out there. If my 8 year old KitchenAid oven with blue enamel has no signs of chipping neither should a Wolf.

One thing I've been planning to do when I have some extra time is compile a list of all the Gardenweb users who ran into the issue, the year they purchased their ovens, and the number of replacements they've gone through. I'll also list users who have owned at least a few years without issue.

Thank you for the reply hvtech42.

First of all I will be up front and say that I am a high end dealer that primarily focuses on Sub Zero and Wolf appliances. I have been doing this for a long time, and have never before seen such
a high quality line of appliances with such excellent customer
service. But lately I have had multiple potential customers come into the showroom ask about this "chipping" non-issue. It is all due to online fear mongering like is happening here and I have had enough of it. It is time for me to address these attacks head on.

I agree with rivermh. There was a minor chipping issue in the early blue wall ovens and ranges, but it was fixed back in 2005. There may have been cases of chipping after that, but since the issue is fixed, those would have to be due to serious abuse by the owner (there's no other reason why such a high quality product would fail that early). Scrubbing the oven floor while it is hot, frequently running the self clean cycle, and baking at temperatures of 500 degrees or more is very hard on any oven and will lead to issues like this.

I would also advise anyone reading this to ignore hvtech42. He/she appears to have a vested interest in steering potential buyers away from Wolf products. I'm not sure what his/her motive is exactly, but I have looked through his/her previous posts and seen the Wolf bashing and those glowing reviews of cheap knock offs like Kitchenaid and Electrolux. Speaking of which, hvtech42, you say here that you have a Kitchenaid oven with no chipping, but in another recent post of yours you said that you had an Electrolux oven. You keep alternating back and forth about what oven you own. Which one do you actually have? Or is it another brand entirely? Your statement about calling the distributors liars was bold indeed, and I would encourage everyone to think about who the real liar is here.

I didn't chime in earlier, as I really don't have any strong opinions in general. But this made me stop:

baking at temperatures of 500 degrees or more is very hard on any oven and will lead to issues like this.

If that is in fact a problem with Wolf ovens (and I am not saying it is), then that sounds horrible. I bake bread and/or pizza quite regularly, in fact, typically twice a week. 500⁰F is a perfectly normal temperature. For what it's worth, if my oven went any higher I'd certainly make use of that. An extra 50⁰F to 100⁰F would be nice, but I am not aware of residential ovens that can do so.

I have had my Bluestar for many years now, and it has no problem with these temperatures at all. It's a pretty basic and simple design, so there really isn't much that would break; and that's one of the strength of Bluestar appliances. But I sincerely hope Wolf didn't make their ovens so fancy that they have essentially become unusable. I assume, this was just a misunderstanding and appliancedealer66 didn't really say that Wolf ovens can't operate at 500⁰F on a regular basis and for at least an hour at a time (it takes some time to properly heat up a baking stone, after all).

Appliance dealer 66 you might want to read some other threads here.

If the issue was fixed in 2005 then why is my 2008 range chipped to the substrate? It was lightly used, maybe weekly,and can't think where it was ever much over 350F except maybe cleaned 3 times - at the most. I actually own an Electrolux wall oven and bake in it a lot, sometimes all day and all temperatures. It is excellent in the way it functions and it still functions where as my Wolf is almost unusable unless you like shards of glass flying around. I actually like the way it works better than Wolf aside from the blue chipping.

No blue chipping is minor! Not only can you ingest it but you can inhale it. I won't take that chance.

Also when you demean our longtime helpful posters, it doesn't make him look bad it comes back on you. Especially in the context that he has nothing to gain but you do. People that are joining up now to shore up Wolf- our long time posters have for the most part started out as fans --but look up a thread to the effect "Who hasn't had issues with blue chipping? It wasn't that long ago. Most posts are since 2008.

There may have been cases of chipping after that, but since the issue is fixed, those would have to be due to serious abuse by the owner (there's no other reason why such a high quality product would fail that early). Scrubbing the oven floor while it is hot, frequently running the self clean cycle, and baking at temperatures of 500 degrees or more is very hard on any oven and will lead to issues like this.

I cannot believe as fact that if there is an issue with a Wolf oven it is ALWAYS user error, any more than it is ALWAYS a Wolf design flaw. Each instance needs to be assessed with the facts. This said, there are enough incidents of blue chipping cited from people who are very favorable towards Wolf on this site and others, to merit having more facts shared by Wolf directly with us. What I want is a vendor who thoughtfully and most seriously addresses my concerns with facts. To dismiss and say it is always the user, or after buying a high performance product that it shouldn't be used as one, isn't the type of vendor relationship which gets my repeat business. I bought a Wolf to have a high performance product built by a vendor who stood behind it and makes it right. Appliancedealer66, I want you to share your insights and respect that you have every right to share your views, just like all do (respectfully, we should all try to not categorize). I do however hope you responded passionately without thinking, when you categorically said we all didn't take care of or improperly used the products for which we paid many thousands of dollars.

"Scrubbing the oven floor while it is hot"

No one who knows me would ever accuse me of this. :-))

"frequently running the self clean cycle"

We have rented a vacation condo for many years and they ran the self clean in the inexpensive Whirlpool range weekly when the condos turned. I'm thinking that the temp for that was 800-900F and no chipping ever over 15 years that I knew of the oven. The oven died in an act of God with its liner intact. So it can be done. It actually baked pretty good too.

"cheap knock offs like Kitchenaid and Electrolux"

What a "Line of of Bull, He/She or whatever is typing, (appears to be a "WolfBot", to me)!

Had the "whatever" bothered to read the different threads here in Houzz & the "former gardenweb", then posts about never using the oven and never having cleaned the oven, yet the chipping still occurred would have been seen.

If it was only an oven or two that had the problem, then "Class Action Suits", would not have been filed. I'm sure it takes "X Number" of complaints before such a suit can be filed.

Even more ridiculous is the "cheap knock off" statement.

Electrolux studied (extensively), the US appliance market, early in the 2000's as they wanted to expand their market penetration in the US. They did studies on what folks wanted, (Much like Capital did with the Culinarian).

One can read the history of Electrolux on the web, to get more detail than I'm giving here. Obviously they did not do a knock off of Wolf. Electrolux was the first to have the fully gliding out ball bearing racks, in fact 3 of them "Standard" in the Icon series. Was quite a bit later that Wolf and also Miele and Gagenau offered these racks, so who is copying who or "Knocking off"?

Unless appliancedealer66 is completely blind, (and to me He is as far as "High end" goes), no one would mistake an Electrolux oven for a wolf oven.

The control panels look nothing like each other, (not even close), the only way they might look similar is to look inside one of the first Electrolux ovens built that had the chipping and look inside the Wolf, The only difference is Electrolux fixed the problem while Wolf has not, at least on the older series and possibly the current DF ranges.

So, I seriously doubt Electrolux or even Whirlpool (Kitchenaid, Jenn-air) would be stupid enough to "Clone A Wolf", and fortunately, (as of yet), neither Electrolux or Whirlpool have "Cloned" the worst parts of SZ/Wolf, (Their Ridiculous Prices for the appliance, it's parts and it's service). Need proof? Try to find a Wolf part anywhere but with SZ/Wolf.

Gary

Have you folks heard the "latest Story"?

Husband tells wife (on cellphone of course), "Honey I'm gonna bring home a take and bake pizza on my way home from work, you won't need to fix dinner"

Wife responds, "Don't do that!, don't ya recalls we sold our Electrolux Oven and bought a Wolf?, and new oven does not like the high operating temps that pizza requires".

Guess who!

There was a minor chipping issue in the early blue wall ovens and ranges, but it was fixed back in 2005.

Don't worry, you aren't the first to make up false information. But if you're are going to go this route at least get your story straight! Last year I heard about some other salesman saying it was fixed 5 years ago, which would mean 2009. You guys would be a whole lot more believable if your dates matched.

Scrubbing the oven floor while it is hot, frequently running the self clean cycle, and baking at temperatures of 500 degrees or more is very hard on any oven and will lead to issues like this.

When someone runs into a repeated issue like this with a product, one of the first things they'e going to wonder is whether they screwed up. Wiping the oven floor while hot is the one thing that Wolf calls out as potentially damaging, so people take extra care not to do that, especially people who have run into the chipping before (besides it being common sense). As for self cleaning and temps above 500 degrees... BS! Absolute BS! I know for a fact Wolf would not endorse that comment. User experiences from the past have proven that these ovens can have the issue whether they're self cleaned/run at high temps or not. And most other ovens, like wekick's example illustrates, handle high temps as well as self clean with no issue.

He/she appears to have a vested interest in steering potential buyers away from Wolf products.

You're seriously going to say that I have a vested interest when you admitted at the beginning of your post that you did yourself?!

I have looked through his/her previous posts and seen the Wolf bashing and those glowing reviews of cheap knock offs like Kitchenaid and Electrolux

Oh boy, I have a stalker. Seriously, I don't even know what you're talking about here. I don't think I've ever written a post about Wolf resembling "bashing" although your comment about KitchenAid and Electrolux sure sounds like that (Gary already did a good job responding to it). I feel like I've always been pretty honest about the strengths and weaknesses of each of those brands. Also, instead of going through my posts and trying to figure out what ovens I personally own (which is completely irrelevant to this discussion) you should have been following the advice given above and reading the many accounts from actual Wolf owners that have been posted here.

Speaking of which, hvtech42, you say here that you have a Kitchenaid oven with no chipping, but in another recent post of yours you said that you had an Electrolux oven. You keep alternating back and forth about what oven you own. Which one do you actually have? Or is it another brand entirely?

I know this may be a little difficult for you to understand, but it's actually possible for people to have MORE THAN ONE OVEN in their kitchen! Wow! As I've said many times in the past, I have an Electrolux range and a KitchenAid wall oven.

I would encourage everyone to think about who the real liar is here.

I don't need to think about it. I've already decided.

Boy, if I were Wolf, I sure don't think I would ask for his help, would you?

Nice post hvtech 42, alto I hope that 42 means something different that my "GLJ1942" means, LOL!

Gary

"59 Dodge

Boy, if I were Wolf, I sure don't think I would ask for his help, would you?"

They are no better. They come on with the same, "Hi there, I'm _____ and I work with Sub-Zero and Wolf. We understand how overwhelming the kitchen appliance selection process can be. If you haven't already done so, we’d love to invite you to visit a showroom...." They have the same canned lines and post on the middle of a thread about chipping, totally ignoring the issues on that thread.

I'm sure you are right about that, wekick. Fortunately with websites like Houzz, we are not ignorant of the facts, and I think "well prepared" for any BS that many/most? sales ppl are likely to "dish out"!

So I guess it's not "totally fair" to aim the guns, just at Wolf, ya thinks? (Example, that worthless self clean that Whirlpool used on some of it's ovens). I can hear X or Y Saleman expounding on the virtues of that cleaning system, LOL!

I want to replace my 9 year old 52" Sharp TV, and no way will I allow a salesman to tell me what I should buy! In my searches, I've found out a lot about some of the problems with the new TV's, so they might as well "spit into the wind"!

Good research via the interenet or however beats the "Salseman's Speil", every time!

Gary

Wekick, that's because they're probably not authorized to say anything. If I were Wolf, I wouldn't let my 'net lurkers speak for the company. Too much legal hassle.

Hvtech42, you do have personal biases, as do we all, but I have never thought you had an anti-Wolf bias.

I have an anti-Wolf oven bias until enough time has passed to know that the new ovens don't chip, and I am really turned off by statements that using the oven as directed is what caused the issue and therefore it's the user's fault! NORMAL cooking temperatures go up to 550° F. LOTS of home baking, pizza, and searing are done hot. If they don't want you to use it, they should limit the temperature, letting the customers know that they should buy Gaggenau. Using the oven as designed should never harm it.

M: "If that is in fact a problem with Wolf ovens (and I am not saying it is), then that sounds horrible. I bake bread and/or pizza quite regularly, in fact, typically twice a week. 500⁰F is a perfectly normal temperature."

On Wolf ovens, you should use the preset temperature for the mode you're using, not the temperature that the recipe says. The reason for this is that chefs at Wolf have tested each of these modes thoroughly and determined which temperatures work best for which modes. The Dual Verticross Convection system means that you can get the same results at lower temperatures that you did at higher temperatures on your old oven. Still, if you bake bread you should purchase a Wolf convection steam oven to get the best results with that.

wekick: "If the issue was fixed in 2005 then why is my 2008 range chipped to the substrate? It was lightly used, maybe weekly,and can't think where it was ever much over 350F except maybe cleaned 3 times - at the most."

There could be a couple reasons for that. One would be that you bought a floor model range, or old stock. Your range could have actually been manufactured as early as 2003, which would have the chipping issue. Another reason might be that you failed to follow the instructions in your user guide for burning in your oven before using. Or both.

wekick: "I actually own an Electrolux wall oven and bake in it a lot, sometimes all day and all temperatures. It is excellent in the way it functions and it still functions where as my Wolf is almost unusable unless you like shards of glass flying around. I actually like the way it works better than Wolf aside from the blue chipping."

I should have been more clear. Electrolux ovens work fine for cooking frozen pizza and stuff like that. But someone who actually cooks would never make the ignorant and foolish statement that an Electrolux cooks as good as a Wolf. The other thing I like to talk about with these ovens is quality. If it's OK that your oven is made in Mexico and only lasts 5 years or less, Electrolux is a fine choice. Low grade Frigidaire parts, low grade Frigidaire performance. But if you're a more discerning customer who wants an oven made right here in the USA and expects it oven to be working like new 20, 30, 40, 50 years later, Wolf would be the better choice. Of course, that all assumes you use it correctly and do not abuse it.

59 Dodge: "Even more ridiculous is the "cheap knock off" statement."

Actually, no. Not a ridiculous statement at all. Electrolux ripped off the signature cobalt blue interior from Wolf a long time ago. More recently, they stole Wolf's dual convection fan system. It's OK though, because Wolf is already moving on to Dual Verticross convection, and by the time Electrolux makes a knock off of that Wolf will have moved to something even better. In this industry, some companies are innovators and others are copycats. When you have been doing this as long as I have, you start to pick up on which are which.

59 Dodge: "So, I seriously doubt Electrolux or even Whirlpool (Kitchenaid, Jenn-air) would be stupid enough to "Clone A Wolf", and fortunately, (as of yet), neither Electrolux or Whirlpool have "Cloned" the worst parts of SZ/Wolf, (Their Ridiculous Prices for the appliance, it's parts and it's service). Need proof? Try to find a Wolf part anywhere but with SZ/Wolf."

There's actually a reason for this. It's that Sub Zero and Wolf do not want do-it-yourselfers or simple minded technicians messing around inside these appliances. Sub Zero and Wolf hand pick only the best technicians to service their appliances. These technicians have all the access to parts and information they need to repair the appliances.

appliancedealer66

M: "If that is in fact a problem with Wolf ovens (and I am not saying it is), then that sounds horrible. I bake bread and/or pizza quite regularly, in fact, typically twice a week. 500⁰F is a perfectly normal temperature."

On Wolf ovens, you should use the preset temperature for the mode you're using, not the temperature that the recipe says. The reason for this is that chefs at Wolf have tested each of these modes thoroughly and determined which temperatures work best for which modes. The Dual Verticross Convection system means that you can get the same results at lower temperatures that you did at higher temperatures on your old oven. Still, if you bake bread you should purchase a Wolf convection steam oven to get the best results with that.

wekick: "If the issue was fixed in 2005 then why is my 2008 range chipped to the substrate? It was lightly used, maybe weekly,and can't think where it was ever much over 350F except maybe cleaned 3 times - at the most."

There could be a couple reasons for that. One would be that you bought a floor model range, or old stock. Your range could have actually been manufactured as early as 2003, which would have the chipping issue. Another reason might be that you failed to follow the instructions in your user guide for burning in your oven before using. Or both.

wekick: "I actually own an Electrolux wall oven and bake in it a lot, sometimes all day and all temperatures. It is excellent in the way it functions and it still functions where as my Wolf is almost unusable unless you like shards of glass flying around. I actually like the way it works better than Wolf aside from the blue chipping."

I should have been more clear. Electrolux ovens work fine for cooking frozen pizza and stuff like that. But someone who actually cooks would never make the ignorant and foolish statement that an Electrolux cooks as good as a Wolf. The other thing I like to talk about with these ovens is quality. If it's OK that your oven is made in Mexico and only lasts 5 years or less, Electrolux is a fine choice. Low grade Frigidaire parts, low grade Frigidaire performance. But if you're a more discerning customer who wants an oven made right here in the USA and expects it oven to be working like new 20, 30, 40, 50 years later, Wolf would be the better choice. Of course, that all assumes you use it correctly and do not abuse it.

59 Dodge: "Even more ridiculous is the "cheap knock off" statement."

Actually, no. Not a ridiculous statement at all. Electrolux ripped off the signature cobalt blue interior from Wolf a long time ago. More recently, they stole Wolf's dual convection fan system. It's OK though, because Wolf is already moving on to Dual Verticross convection, and by the time Electrolux makes a knock off of that Wolf will have moved to something even better. In this industry, some companies are innovators and others are copycats. When you have been doing this as long as I have, you start to pick up on which are which.

59 Dodge: "So, I seriously doubt Electrolux or even Whirlpool (Kitchenaid, Jenn-air) would be stupid enough to "Clone A Wolf", and fortunately, (as of yet), neither Electrolux or Whirlpool have "Cloned" the worst parts of SZ/Wolf, (Their Ridiculous Prices for the appliance, it's parts and it's service). Need proof? Try to find a Wolf part anywhere but with SZ/Wolf."

There's actually a reason for this. It's that Sub Zero and Wolf do not want do-it-yourselfers or simple minded technicians messing around inside these appliances. Sub Zero and Wolf hand pick only the best technicians to service their appliances. These technicians have all the access to parts and information they need to repair the appliances.

Stunning ignorance and disrespect.

11 minutes ago

On Wolf ovens, you should use the preset temperature for the mode you're using, not the temperature that the recipe says.

What?! So you're telling me that if I have "Dual Verticross convection" I can cook a pizza at 325 or whatever the convection preset is?

Another reason might be that you failed to follow the instructions in your user guide for burning in your oven before using.

The burn-in process has been discussed at length already. I don't know what wekick did, but other people here have tried the one from the manual, as well as a modified procedure that came from a Wolf engineer. They were found to not make a difference.

Electrolux ovens work fine for cooking frozen pizza and stuff like that. But someone who actually cooks would never make the ignorant and foolish statement that an Electrolux cooks as good as a Wolf.

Earlier in this thread, wekick mentioned baking "sometimes all day and all temperatures". Does that really sound like the use pattern of someone who only heats up frozen pizza? Other serious bakers also report excellent results from the Electrolux ovens, and as an owner I can vouch for them myself.

If it's OK that your oven is made in Mexico and only lasts 5 years or less, Electrolux is a fine choice.

Electrolux ovens have never been made in Mexico and there have been multiple reports from users who have owned them and been happy with them for more than 5 years.

Electrolux ripped off the signature cobalt blue interior from Wolf a long time ago. More recently, they stole Wolf's dual convection fan system.

Did those features have unexpired patents at the time Electrolux came out with them? If no, they weren't stolen. If they actually were, Wolf would have already dealt with it. Even if some of Electrolux's ideas did originally came from Wolf, there's nothing wrong with that. Companies build on each other's products all the time. And if that results in quality improvements and price reductions - all the better!

Sub Zero and Wolf hand pick only the best technicians to service their appliances

Yeah, all the manufacturers want people to think that, but it's not true. All it means is that someone gets to fix the manufacturer's mistakes during the warranty period and gets paid extremely little for it. It doesn't mean they have good troubleshooting skills. The only real advantage is that they get the service manuals and such. However, there are all sorts of websites out there for appliance repair techs to chat, and the ones who have exclusive access to a particular manufacturer's information are usually happy to share with their colleagues who don't.

"I should have been more clear. Electrolux ovens work fine for cooking frozen pizza and stuff like that. But someone who actually cooks would never make the ignorant and foolish statement that an Electrolux cooks as good as a Wolf."

Sad that this person resorts to personal attacks. I am almost wondering if they have it in for Wolf and are trying to make them look bad.

"There could be a couple reasons for that. One would be that you bought a floor model range, or old stock. Your range could have actually been manufactured as early as 2003, which would have the chipping issue. Another reason might be that you failed to follow the instructions in your user guide for burning in your oven before using. Or both."

It was ordered new from the distributor so following your excuses, if Wolf sold me an old range, that they knew had problems, it would still be on them.

Anyone who has read any of my posts knows how I am about use and care manuals

"The other thing I like to talk about with these ovens is quality. If it's OK that your oven is made in Mexico and only lasts 5 years or less, Electrolux is a fine choice. Low grade Frigidaire parts, low grade Frigidaire performance. But if you're a more discerning customer who wants an oven made right here in the USA and expects it oven to be working like new 20, 30, 40, 50 years later, Wolf would be the better choice. Of course, that all assumes you use it correctly and do not abuse it."

With what you are saying to M and this, you are making the range out to be very limited. I would think with how this range is marketed, it would tolerate high temp baking.

Lets see in 4 1/2 years for the Wolf and done and 8 years so far and still working great for the Electrolux.

"Actually, no. Not a ridiculous statement at all. Electrolux ripped off the signature cobalt blue interior from Wolf a long time ago."

And I guess Wolf ripped it off from Caloric and Beatrice West

From
Caloric Color

edit- I forgot to add my aunt had an old Victorian wood stove with blue interior and exterior.

"Wolf is already moving on to Dual Verticross convection"

Which may or may not be an improvement. They also discontinued the convection bake mode which is going in the opposite direction from most premium ovens, by deleting cooking modes. You being an expert baker would immediately see the folly in that.

If you don't believe me about the performance of Wolf ovens, take a look at this video about baking 3 racks of chocolate chip cookies completely evenly. There's no way you could do this in your ovens. People just don't want to admit that there are some things they just can't pull off with the equipment they have. I understand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uZ7l2R06sQ

hvtech42: "What?! So you're telling me that if I have "Dual Verticross convection" I can cook a pizza at 325 or whatever the convection preset is?"

You wouldn't use the convection mode. Instead you would use the stone mode along with the bake stone accessory. This combines intense heat from both the top and bottom elements along with the powerful convection fans. It will do a great job cooking pizza at the preset temperature of only 400 degrees.

hvtech42: "Electrolux ovens have never been made in Mexico"

Actually, they're made in Mexico. I have 2 links to prove it. Hundreds of American jobs lost. http://whotv.com/2012/11/28/more-layoffs-electrolux-closes-plant-completely/ http://blog.yaleappliance.com/bid/88040/Thermador-vs-Electrolux-Wall-Ovens-Reviews-Ratings-Prices

wekick: "It was ordered new from the distributor so following your excuses, if Wolf sold me an old range, that they knew had problems, it would still be on them."

No, it would be on the distributor.

wekick: "They also discontinued the convection bake mode which is going in the opposite direction from most premium ovens, by deleting cooking modes. You being an expert baker would immediately see the folly in that."

The only reason they had the convection bake mode before was to help the transition for people who were used to fake convection ovens without 3rd elements. Expert bakers know that true European convection with a 3rd element gives the best performance. With the M series Wolf decided to bring everyone into the 21st century and now they always use that 3rd element with the convection fans for the most even baking. That's what they used for the cookies in the video I linked, and they came out perfect.

People just don't want to admit that there are some things they just can't pull off with the equipment they have.

Actually, you're correct here. One dish I'm unable to pull off in my Elux is "blue porcelain pizza". No matter how many times I try, it just clings too darn tightly to the oven walls and never makes its way onto the pizza!

This combines intense heat from both the top and bottom elements along with the powerful convection fans. It will do a great job cooking pizza at the preset temperature of only 400 degrees.

That sounds like a horrible environment for pizza. A very low temperature, combined with a lot of heat from the top and a powerful fan blowing around? It sounds to me like the toppings would get burnt before the crust even had a chance to finish.

Actually, they're made in Mexico. I have 2 links to prove it.

The Webster City link was talking about a washer factory. Had nothing to do with ovens. The Yale Appliance link is just plain wrong, but I can see where they might have gotten confused since admittedly, a lot of Electrolux's other products are made in Mexico. Still, we're just talking about ovens here. They were made in Canada up until last year and they decided to move production to the US for this year's new models.

As an owner for a Wolf wall oven, I am offended that you, appliancedealer66, make it sound like it is my fault the the porcelain chipped in my ovens twice. My first oven was built in 2009. I replaced it in 2013 with another E Series double oven. Within using the oven 4 times, the new oven was chipping in the front bottom corners. I had done the burn-in just as the manual had said to. That was the only time this oven used temperatures that high. I don't make pizzas and only roast meats and bake cookies and pies. The temperature was never above 425. So tell me why did that oven fail. Could it be bad porcelain and design! No Wolf has not fixed the problem. It is a design problem when the metal heats and expands faster the the porcelain. I now have an Pro M which has been great so far. The porcelain in this oven is very different looking then the old E Series and the bottom of the oven is a separate sheet of metal. A new design that may have fixed this issue.

Well our "new poster" is certainly better at typing than reading. Well, (come to think of it, the typing isn't so great either).

But be that as it may, lets evaluate some of his posts as far as being correct and/or knowledgeable.

(1) "That's what they used for the cookies in the video I linked, and they came out perfect". Maybe the ones in the video did, but read the current thread about the "cookie problems" with the wolf.

(2) "If it's OK that your oven is made in Mexico and only lasts 5 years or less, Electrolux is a fine choice. Low grade Frigidaire parts, low grade Frigidaire performance" There are a number of posters here in Houzz that have Electrolux ovens considerably older than 5 years, mine is over 9 years and never has needed service, all the racks work like the day they were brand new, which is to say very smoothly.

(3) "Actually, they're made in Mexico. I have 2 links to prove it." Wrong again, they were made in Canada, as mine was, but in Jan 2014 they moved the production to Memphis Tenn. Plenty of info on the net about Electrolux and it's US Operations, would suggest poster reads same.

Butttttt, what if the appliances were made in Mexico, The "Highest End" TV's that you can buy, including the OLED TV's are made in Mexico, (at least the ones that get imported to North America).

So What's the "BIG DEAL" about Mexico, is the poster just trying to "TRUMP" US?

Gary

appliancedealer66

If you don't believe me about the performance of Wolf ovens, take a look at this video about baking 3 racks of chocolate chip cookies completely evenly. There's no way you could do this in your ovens. People just don't want to admit that there are some things they just can't pull off with the equipment they have. I understand.

We have actually discussed that video. On this forum. VVV

Wolf M-uneven bake with three racks

Again you might want to read some of the other threads.

Here's concept for you. There are some of us on this forum don't even need a convection oven to bake. Some have even baked in a wood stove with no thermostat. I even know people who have baked on a BBQ pit.

Because...they know how to bake.

_____

As for cooking pizza, you might want to poke around the Internet a little and see what people are doing to cook pizza. There are many, many approaches but you may want to google "Pizza steel", "cooking pizza in a self clean cycle","how hot can you get your oven." And here is an article for you.

Serious eats Food Lab Pizza

_____

"No, it would be on the distributor."

Are you saying that Wolf has no control over their distributors?

That they don't stand behind what their distributors do so they are not responsible?

That would explain a lot. Good to know.

_____

"The only reason they had the convection bake mode before was to help the transition for people who were used to fake convection ovens without 3rd elements."

Fake? Someone needs to go brush up on what convection is and does.

Just for fun, give a sentence or two about how the bake, convection bake and pure convection modes might have differing affects on starch gelatinization in bread baking.

How might these three modes affect baking a pie?

"Expert bakers know that true European convection with a 3rd element gives the best performance."

Performance? Only in some circumstances and only if it is done right. There are many other aspects to the performance of an oven that might even be more important to cooks.

"With the M series Wolf decided to bring everyone into the 21st century and now they always use that 3rd element with the convection fans for the most even baking."

Sadly that seems to be true that they don't have convection bake anymore which allows for a more gentle even heat and slower fan speed. This was very useful.

"That's what they used for the cookies in the video I linked, and they came out perfect."

I would look at the discussion linked above as this is not so even. When you have heat so immediate to the oven cavity with a high speed fan and directed the way it is directed, it is hard not to have that hot spot on the sides.

I know this goes by fast in the video but here is a screen shot. These cookies are almost underdone so the over browning in the corners would be even more so if left in longer

hvtech42 found this illustration.

I had pretty good luck with the convection bake when my Wolf DF was able to be used for baking. I could put rows of quiches, egg dishes, cookies, pastries, pies etc in and it was pretty even.

Sadly my my wolf oven could not be used when I was in my macaron phase. Luckily the Elux did great.

On Wolf ovens, you should use the preset temperature for the mode you're
using, not the temperature that the recipe says. The reason for this is
that chefs at Wolf have tested each of these modes thoroughly and
determined which temperatures work best for which modes.

ROTFLOLTIWMP!!!!!!

What a ridiculous statement! We don't deliver an oven that an experienced cook and baker can use like a normal oven. We insist that you must use our program settings and forget everything you know because our guys know better than you, who have been cooking and baking all your life, therefore resistance is futile and you will be assimilated or else your oven will self destruct!

WHAT ABSOLUTE HOOEY!!!!!!

Guys... Do you think this troll is a shill for Gaggenau? Trying to convince people that Wolf is so intransigent they really should pop for the German?

Don't take any of it seriously. The crap about not using them at high temperatures is obviously not true. They have proven to chip no matter what temperatures you use them at. And of course it's fine to set them at whatever temps the controls will let you. Cooking pizza at 400 degrees will not prolong the life of the oven, it will just result in lame crusts.

This guy is just a clueless salesman who is trying represent these ovens online as better than they really are. However, he is shooting himself in the foot because he is unintentionally representing them as worse than they really are, and making up limitations about them that don't actually exist, in a poor attempt to cover up a different issue.

Your guess, as good as mine, about that, Pillog.

He sure isn't doing Wolf any favors, ya thinks?

Some of his statements are soooo far "off the wall", I doubt any readers will take him seriously.

Gary

I currently have a wolf df, and while I love it for many things, it does bake unevenly. This is with the convection option, or the regular option. I admittedly am not a master chef. We've had the range for 5 years, and I've been incredibly happy with the cooktop, but the ovens have been somewhat disappointing with the evenness of cooking. I haven't had any chipping issues with the blue interior, but I have by and large avoided using the self-clean option.

Jen, what were you baking in your oven? How did the unevenness manifest itself?

The unevenness has been with cookies . Pies and cakes have largely done alright, but anything on a large sheet ends up with the back row of cookies getting extra crispy, or if I am grilling bread, same deal, so I have to watch and rotate. I just saw a post with pics of cookies from the Wolf oven that looked pretty familiar. My friend and neighbor has the identical range, same issue. It's been disappointing, considering the cost.

I think the full convection has the potential to be more uneven. I would try the convection bake which is a slower fan speed and seems to rotate at least to the bottom element more rather than just the back element which would be more immediate and intense.

If everything else fails, you'll have to do what I did when I moved into my very first apartment. It came with a nondescript gas range; probably whatever happened to be cheapest when bought sometime in the 1960s or 1970s. Initial baking experiments failed spectacularly, but I quickly discovered how to fix thing.

Put one of more cookie sheets or roasting pans at the bottom of the oven; alternatively, I'd imagine that a full size baking stone would work as well (search for FibraMent). Then put the cookie sheet with the actual cookies at least four inches higher. The extra sheets act as a heat diffuser and after making this adjustment my cheap oven actually produced beautiful results each and every time.

I later had to use the same technique when I inherited a Viking oven from the previous owner of my first house. It wasn't as bad as the no-name oven, but without the extra cookie sheets, it would still heat quite unevenly. Because of that, I also never used the convection fan when baking; it just aggravated the situation.

Finally, with my BlueStar, I don't really have to use these tricks. It bakes very evenly, but it does admittedly take a really long time to preheat. Also, I often leave the baking stone in the oven, which does act as an additional diffuser. It's not so much that I need it to do any diffusing; but I just don't have a good place to store it otherwise. Those big FibraMent stones are beautiful, but also quite bulky and heavy.

@Jen...I agree with you. That is very disappointing. Wolf touts there DF oven as being very even within +\-2C of set point. It is a shame the DF cost so much and perform similarly to mid-range brands.