Thank you, Kim. I appreciate very much your knowledge and the time you took to answer. I will definetely water now deep the entire bed and stop fertilizing.

Not being naive, simply lacking the knowledge, if I may ask how those old garden roses (heritage roses) at Sacramento Cemetery had survived and prosper in clay soil with little water and care? Must be a rose or two someone could recommend for my "cement wall" condition. Please! Please!

You're welcome! The conditions at the cemetery are very different from those in your climate, much less, your planter. They have a higher water table with more rain. The cemetery has a wealth of huge, old trees which trap dews and fogs, and combined with the water they naturally transpire from the ground back to it through their canopies, they "water" the understory plants. Plus, their litter creates a wonderful mulch which helps prevent water from being sucked from the soil by winds, heat, sun and aridity. And, there is a great deal of difference between the sun shining directly on a tombstone for an hour or two, with the cooling, more humid air flowing through the tree canopies and the reflected/radiated heat from three or four hours of direct sun on your white wall. It isn't just the OGRs which can survive when given the appropriate mitigating conditions, most will perform similarly if provided what they need and planted in a suitable climate and environment. There are always special situations and conditions which enable "the survivors" to survive. Whether it's the heavy canopy of a dense tree providing the frequent "rain" from transpiration or collection of dews and rains as well as protection from being fried and scorched by too intense sun, particularly during extreme conditions; a wall, chimney or foundation of an old building to protect it from too intense sun or freezing or drying winds or whatever. When you study where they've been "found", there are always special conditions which have enabled them to not die. Plant any of them out where they don't benefit from such enabling conditions and not water and tend them and very few, if any, would survive any better than any other rose (or plant, for that matter). Good luck! Kim

Thank you, Kim.

I also thought of placing in that spot a nice big decoratve pot (2 ft x 2 ft) and planting a rose there. Would greatly appreciate any thought on this, as well as recommendation for a rose.

Many thanks again,

Paola

You're welcome. A pot is going to require even more water. Keeping them all planted in the ground and keeping that soil sufficiently damp should provide you with the best look with the least amount of effort (and water!). Kim

Appreciate your thoughts and advice very much, all taken in consideration :)) but I still need a recommendation, please... China? Tea? Noisette?

I would think once you have water in that soil, any of the roses (or other plants) you have tried but which didn't flourish, should do nicely. Most roses will do quite well in your zone these days with the hours of direct sun you report. Once upon a time, when the sun wasn't as extreme as it has become in the past two to three years, the average needed was higher, but as it intensifies, most plants benefit from reduced light/heat stress. That said, you should be able to plant pretty much what you would like. It honestly appears to me your problem has been too dry soil. Fix that and you should be home free. Kim

Kim, I'm so grateful for your advice, it means a lot to me.

However, still interested in that best possible tough ROSE, continuous bloomer. I need "name" & "class" help... "information to permit an informed choice"::)).

Would be nice to hear other people's opinions. Please! Suggestions would be welcomed!

Jeri, Kathy, Kippy, Kitty, Houvb, are you there::))???

Again, the location gets full sun only for 4 hrs. (10am-2pm). Also I would like to be able to prune it someday...well, at least sideways. No China or Tea Rose, I suppose. They would get too big, right? And pruning is not really recommended?

On my list I have now -

Reve d'Or; Narrow Water;

Cramoisi Superieur (I know, it's China); Perle d'Or;

Emmie Grey; Blush Noisette;

Sydonie; Ragged Robin; Louis Philppe

Is it enough sun for Polyantha or Noisette?

Thanks again for wonderful people and a very helpful website.

OK. I think Kim is right about the soil -- and that is a problem I have not dealt with.

I also think he may have been right on target about alkalinity resulting from the concrete and the wall. (There could also be a footing down there for that wall, which could further interfere.

I think you're right about a rose being lovely in that spot. IF you can find the right rose.

I have a somewhat similar situation here. A low retaining wall that visually needed something planted in front of it. Over the course of several years, I tried at least a half-dozen roses. Uniformely, they grew indifferently, bloomed somewhat sparingly, and generally struggled. I'm pretty sure the wall was a big part of the problem. In addition to everything else, every rose I put there sun-scalded, and eventually died.

I finally tried 'Louis Phillipe' and hit the jackpot. He doesn't seem to mind the cr*ppy soil and water, and he handles the sometimes intense heat. He's grown up to be a good 5-ft. tall.

In one old cemetery after another, under horrendous conditions, we consistently find that the old red China Roses have survived.

Here's one we saw last weekend, in an old cemetery, planted next to the 1885 grave of a 10-year-old boy. Despite very tough conditions, it's still alive. (Volunteers are now giving it a little water, and a cage of deer-fencing.) Since I know it's a rose that can handle my own SoCal coastal conditions, I recommend it.

Thank you, Jeri. I will amend the soil to reach 3 ft. down and water plenty. Would it be enough sun not not mildew and bloom frequently? plus "June gloom" story for the entire June?

Paola -- I have never seen mildew problems on any of my red Chinas. (Well, only when they were immature. They outgrew that.)
And to be honest, I think that roses these days are less-threatened by shade than they are by too much sun and heat. He can get to be a pretty big plant, however. So you do have to consider space.

Paola, how deep is the soil which has already been replaced? You don't need to amend deeply, you need to make sure it's sufficiently loosened to allow for water, air and roots to penetrate it. What was there from the builder is engineered, compacted, so it doesn't absorb water, to prevent liquifaction during earthquakes. It is like "bed rock". It's quite difficult to dig in because all the air space has been compressed out of it so it literally is like rock. That is what is under your replaced soil, hopefully, unless there is a concrete footer or base, as Jeri suggested. If there is concrete as a base, there isn't anything you can do but make sure there are drainage holes in the front (or rear) wall of the planter to allow for deluges or burst pipe results to flow out.

I asked how deep a hole you can dig there for several reasons. First, to figure out whether you have compacted sub soil as a base, or a concrete footer. Second, to determine how deep that replaced soil is. If the workable soil is only two feet deep, it's going to be difficult to get anything very large to grow well simply because of the too shallow soil space. The tap, anchor roots, need to grow about as deep as the plant is tall to anchor it against winds and to help draw moisture from the sub soil to support the plant. If there is too shallow soil, those roots will hit the hard base and grow along it until they either reach their limit based on available resources, or until they hit another barrier, like the walls of the planter. That's why you have major tree roots under the sod in engineered communities and trees falling over after rains and winds.

If you can dig a three foot hole without having to resort to a jack hammer, you should be able to grow roses there easily, once the soil is sufficiently moist. You honestly do NOT have to "bury garbage" down deep. If your soil is very sandy, you need clay type particles, such as kitty litter, to increase the water holding capabilities. The clay won't decompose, "digest" out of the soil and cause your plants to sink lowers as it does. Organic material buried under ground will cause them to sink lower as it decomposes. If your drainage is sufficient, you only need those soil amendments in the top several inches of the planter as that is where the feeder roots of the plants will grow. All the other roots are naturally suited to deal with sub soils of low organic content.

You wrote you have already amended that planter each time you've removed other plants. You probably have all the amendments you're going to need for a while, just like you probably have all the fertilizers you'll need. That soil has already been replaced once. Without knowing anything more than that, it is impossible to suggest if it requires replacement again. Find out the answers to how deeply you can dig until you hit a barrier; whether the soil is easily dug to about three feet; if it remains totally dry as you'd indicated earlier or if it begins showing dampness the farther down you dig, and you will have the knowledge necessary to determine whether or not other roses are going to grow well there. Or, you can go on planting hit or miss ideas and suggestions until something finally works, if something finally works. Jeri's suggestion is a good one, as long as what is UNDER the plant is appropriate so support growth. Kim

Yes. I think Kim is right. In your situation, it's not just finding the right rose (which is why I suggest something pretty tough) but also to give it the right conditions.

That whole "engineered soil" thing amazes me. I've never dealt with it, and I guess, as awful as our soil is, that would be worse. After all, our "soil" is pretty much decomposed sandstone. You can add organics to it, and it will grow things. But that engineered stuff -- PHOOEY!

What I had in Encino was imploding, old sea floor. I regularly unearthed calcified worm tubes. The soil had the consistency of coarse corn meal and talc. When it was bone dry, it repelled water, but once the surface tension was broken, water soaked in rather quickly. There were seldom any puddles after heavy rains, but hit it with a hose and it just ran off to lower spots. Once it was wet, it remained wet for quite a while, then seemed to suddenly release it all and dry out again. After rains, the plants would explode into lush growth. I had to continue watering fairly heavily to maintain that performance because if I stopped and the soil had a chance to dry out, the plants stopped and went into a suspended animation. They wouldn't die, but they just didn't flourish. As long as I continued flooding the areas, they kept putting out growth and flowers, but how long can that be sustained?

I have the same opinion of engineered soil as you do, Jeri, but when buying a new home, it came down to which issue I wanted to battle. Having to recreate plantable areas or dealing with the potential of greater seismic damage. I chose the former as I have dealt with both and definitely don't want any more of the latter. Ain't no danged fun, in either case. Fortunately, I have a great deal of experience with engineered soils from more than fifteen years dealing with them in Pacific Palisades and the Santa Clarita Valley. Hateful stuff, but it beats greater major structural damage and bodily injury due to earth movements. That's why I am looking at not being able to actually plant anything here until late this year. All the house alterations have to be complete before I can get heavy equipment in here to remove what's already growing and dig up the rock so roots, water and air can get down into it so what I want will grow. The established "landscaping" has all of its roots running across the area just under the turf. It's the only place they had to go for air and water. Kim

I got it, Kim and again I thank you so much for taking the time to respond:) I read through every single one of your posts...any many many more. I even quoted you. You are one of the very best. So thank you.
With all respect and appreciation, I do have some roses growing fine in that very same bed. Thus, I suppose, it was just a bad luck choosing poor specimens for that particular spot. Assuming, the space is just mediocre (other roses are growing there), I would be still taking a chance of ordering own root plant and waiting for two years to see if it grows. Nothing unusual for me:) and that's what I will be doing in any case.

To ease my sleepless nights and to make my searches simpler, based on assumption that the soil, space, etc in that stupid bed are simply OK, I asked for a specific suggestion(s). A short simple list of several hardy and easily adaptable roses, suitable, on your valuable opinion, for my case, could of make me so very happy. Yours, Jerry's and others experience and knowledge are truly phenomenal. Anyhow, I rest my case...with great appreciation.

Again, thank you both with all my heart.

One other thing... In the similar flower bed structure, one of my neighbours has this beautiful pink rose ( not a climber) that she inherited from the previous owner. In fact, here in Solana Beach, Del Mar & Rancho Santa Fe I see that same rose alot, often planted near cement walls in terrible soil. Any chance to identify that rose. Please.

Thank you & love you all.

Wall of roses · More Info

Wall of roses · More Info

Possibly Duchesse de Brabant, a tea rose? That's a real (i.e. old-fashioned) tea rose, not a (modern) hybrid tea - they're often mistakenly referred to as tea roses, even though they're very different. If you look DdB up on the website, HelpMeFind/Roses, you can read a basic description, then click on 'Photos' from the tabs along the top to see lots and lots of pics for comparison. If not that, perhaps, a David Austin - someone else here or on the Antique Roses forum may be able to ID it.

I'm a little frightened to make any other suggestions, not being on intimate terms with the various Californian soils and microclimates, and since getting it so badly wrong with Ballerina...

Comtesse :¬p

Thank you, Comtesse. I did think about "Duchesse". She would be good probably in a large pot as well. I will look her up again.

Well, well... Today, I finally approached the gardener that was working at the near by golf course where this rose is absolutely everywhere...planted by the tall cement walls. And the winner is "Cecile Brunner" . That's the rose I've been seeing and admiring for so long around the coastal communities. Of course, this doesn't mean it's the best choice for my wall ::))

You could do a LOT worse! Because of the height of the wall, I'd suggest the bush form instead of the climber. If you'd like an apricot version, you could also use Perle d'Or. Both, once established and made happy, can achieve some massive proportions with little to no pruning. If you want something to perhaps 15', which could be trained as a climber or huge bush, with pretty continuous bloom, Spray Cecile Brunner is your choice. Kim

I just love you. Thank you.

Aw, thank you, you're welcome! Kim

When I went rose crazy and planted everywhere, I picked hybrid musks and rugosas for the shady areas.

Thank you, Steve. You got it, I definetely went "rose crazy" ::)) Will hybrid musks and rugosas be suitable for my semi-coastal location? Mildew, rust? Would they grow fast?? and bloom all the time? I took Jerry's and Kim's advice and concentrate on Teas and Polyanthas. Well, still researching, reading all these posts and collecting the info. I only have two more spaces left. Both with about 4 hrs. of sun the most. So dont want to make a mistake.

Generally, rugosas don't like most of SoCal, particularly the alkalinity, intense sun and high heat. Hybrid Musks generally do OK, but get larger than you expect them to and, depending upon how much multiflora there is in them, can suffer chorosis and quite a bit of mildew. Those bred too closely to Ballerina or multiflora itself, are the worst. And, close affinity to multiflora also gives them a greater susceptibilty to crown gall here. Kim

I live in San Francisco east bay. The temperature depends on how far in the fog creeps. I have adobe soil. I currently have a Duchess De Brabant planted in my semi shady area. It has done very well. I need to support the canes to keep the blooms away from the deer. Up against a wall might be really good. It's planted under an oak tree.

Well... Just, please, don't laugh at me... I make my notes :) Have two columns. One column -- "as per Jerry" and the other "other opinions". As per Jerry, "Duchesse" do mildew. Also, as much as I like your pics, I absolutely need a real full blooming bush. It's just right in front of my kitchen window. I "slave" there a lot. Need badly to enjoy that view.

Thank you, Steve. I truly appreciate you responded.

Buff Beauty would look very pretty in that corner, and is very happy to be trained horizontally (it might even run along the whole length of that wall eventually if allowed to, but I don't think it would mind being kept more severely in check). Alternatively, it could be grown in a big mound, or given support to go more vertically. I'm venturing to suggest it, despite being another Hybrid Musk, because it does seem to be particularly adaptable to a wide range of conditions, like sun/shade and heat/cold. But I'll have to let others chime in with how it does in your specific location.

The thing is, it's a little bit tricky to to be sure about recommending something that definitely won't burn when the sun is hottest and radiating off walls on two sides, but is also OK with some shade, plus coping with some possibly still unaddressed/unknown soil problem. I should think, though, that Jeri would be right in that the heat would be more of an issue than the shade. I'm guessing it might be too hot for the majority of Hybrid Musks, with less than optimal flower production and frying flowers, in addition to Kim's point about potential fungal issues for some in your area.

FWIW, I have wondered whether there might be some loose concrete rubble (or other undesirable/toxic stuff perhaps?) sitting at the base of those walls, just sort of shoved up in a pile in the corner and left there by builders before the soil was added. Just cos I see such things done. If this were the case here, it could be making just that particular corner too alkaline. Maybe a quick and inexpensive home PH test would be worth doing, once you've wetted the whole thing thoroughly according to Kim's and Jeri's advice, just to make sure PH is OK before planting anything?

One problem with growing something in a 2x2ft pot in that corner might be that, although it allows you to use known/good potting mix, it could also require very consistent daily monitoring of its moisture requirements, especially in the summer/dry seasons, so that the existing stress of the radiant heat from the two walls on both roots and upper growth is not compounded with any water stress. A double pot with some insulation between might help. But I'm hopeless at keeping anything alive in summer in pots! And, maybe I'm wildly over-thinking it. Daisy, who grows loads of gorgeous things in pots in a hot climate with multiple white walls, might be able to offer some better advice, if she sees this.

Comtesse :¬)

Thank you, Comtesse. Again, I don' really think it's the soil. I've purchased the tester last year and the soil was OK. I have beautiful roses growing in that same bed. This time, would have to dig a bit wider and deeper and amend again. As I mentioned, all three plants were rather small and sickly.

The sun there is only from about 10 am to about 2:30 pm. And one of that corner wall is actually in the shade almost all the time. In the area where I live the temps rarely get higher than 85'.. It's not brutally hot. Thus, I actually think it will be a very good spot for the right rose. Wouldn't want a climber.

I am reading myself sick but still confused about the potential benefits of choosing China, Tea or Polyantha... Just desperately want an Old Garden Rose in a shady spot that would give me lots of healthy bloom all year and yet grows relatively fast ::)) without rust and mildew.

Need to make a decision in a few weeks, as I don't like to plant in the mids of summer. So far, Perle d'Or is first on my list.

So sorry to go on and on with this... Thank you for understanding.

Appreciate your thoughts, Comtess :))

And since its already a 2.5 ft raised bed, I wouldn't want to end up with a monsterous leggy bush and have a bunch of smaller flowers 3 feet above my head.

Just so you don't mis-estimate 'Perle d'OR,' here are two of them in the Historic Rose Garden, in the Sacramento City Cemetery. I am assured that these two are about 11 years old.

Oh, Jeri... What to do? What to do?

I am just afraid Louis will end up being leggy.

Please, give me a few more ideas:) on blooming, round and about 5ft.

Thank you,

Paola

No, Buff Beauty is neither monstrous or leggy, but quite a mannerly shrub-climber that can occasionally ramble far along a low fence in some situations if not pruned at all. If grown as a shrub, I think it would naturally arch downwards, spilling louchely and attractively over your wall, front and back, undemanding and looking generally delightful and smelling lovely. You can check it out on HMF, and search the ARF using the 'Search on GardenWeb' box above for pics of various ways people have grown it. The flowers are medium sized - smaller than many DAs but much bigger than Cecille Brunner's, which you said you like. The foliage is also plentiful, shiny and attractively coloured. I leave it to those familiar with your location to comment on its likely disease resistance there, but normally it's very good...

Other than that, I can only repeat what I said before (on a different thread, I think) - that if you post this Q on the Antique Roses forum, I think you'll get many more people who could advise you on the kinds of roses you mention you're interested in. This forum does not specialise in the Old Roses, most people who grow modern roses (mainly HTs, Floribundas and so-called 'landscape roses') know little or nothing about true (not Hybrid) Teas, Chinas and Polyanthas. If it's the latest HTs you want, then this one is your baby!. Some ARF regulars do indeed check all the rose forums from time to time, but not all, by any means. If you're quite certain there's no problem with your soil or moisture in that corner, and since your temperatures are not too extreme, as Kim (I think) said, you should be able to grow many kinds of roses there successfully.

If that's the case, and you'd still like specific recommendations, I suggest you post a simplified version of your Q, simply asking for recommendations for suitable roses in the colours, size and habit you envisage, for that situation, in your climate, zone and approximate geographic location, with a secondary request for alternative recommendations for growing there in a 2x2ft pot. Better still, if you first browse these forums, HMF, the various online Antique/Heirloom Rose growers' catalogues and maybe YouTubes on Famous Gardens, etc. and pick 1/2 a dozen or so roses that have the look, size and habit that you'd like to see there, you could list these and ask if they would be suitable, how they might be expected to perform (esp. size and disease-wise) in your location, and for any alternative recommendations along similar lines.

If you'd like to be given a general description of the differences between Teas, Chinas and Polyanthas, just ask for that specifically as a secondary, or separate Q and folks there will be happy to oblige.

I'm so sorry this has become something of an ordeal for you and I do hope my suggestions will help you quickly get the answers you're still looking for.

Don't despair! Or be embarrassed! Try the ARF!

Comtesse :¬D

PS Cross-posted with Jeri and you..

I'm sorry, Paola - I had no idea you wanted it to be only 5ft high (and wide?) max - the pics you posted of the rose you liked (CB?) appeared to me to be much bigger. Also Reve d'Or and Blush Noisette, which you gave as examples of what you're looking for, are climbers - way bigger than 5ft! Hence some confusion... these are the sort of details we will need clarified in order to make more appropriate recommendations. :¬)

Thank you so much:)

Jery, that's way too big. Thank you for posting this. Idea is to stay 5x5 maximum or even shorter... "round and pretty". Just so afraid of rust and mildew.

what do you think about -

General Galleni

Gilbert Nabonnand

Mme Berkley

Pink Pet

Thank you!

General Gallieni, Mme. Berkeley, and G. Nabonnand should be dependably disease-free for you.

For me, G. Nabonnand is less than 4-ft tall, but is a good 5-ft. wide. It repeats like a trooper. But the color may be disappointing, against the white wall.

Thank you so much, Jeri. For some reason, Louis is not handsome enough-:)

Your thoughts about Pink Pet??? If you please.

Sorry Paola. I have not grown it.

Jeri, considering that Teas do get mildew at the early stage, would either General or Gilbert be OK with only 4.5 hrs of sun?

Thank you

The General can be a big boy - maybe 8x6 or more, although I understand he may occasionally condescend to be hard pruned. That's if GG here is the same as the US GG - I don't remember seeing his blooms looking quite like Jeri's picture.

To summarise - what you're looking for is: a rose that repeats well in only 4-4 1/2 hours of sun with max. summer temps of c 85F, is bushy/compact/rounded, easy to keep at 5x5ft or under, likely to be rust and mildew resistant in coastal San Diego within that corner (NB poss air circulation issue??), possibly suitable for pot culture, in any colour but white. Did you say whether scent is important? Just trying to get it all clear.

Comtesse :¬)

Perfect::))

...and scent is not important, so the air circulation, I suppose. The space is about 6 ft wide, given the rose about 3 ft on each side.

Thank you!

So -- You mean the rose can be 6-ft. wide? In that case, G. Nabonnand should do OK.

With re. Mildew:

Yes, some (not all) Tea Roses mildew in immaturity. I have never, however seen ANY disease any of the Nabonnand roses, so I would not worry about that issue with a Nabonnand rose in Southern (or Northern) California. That's one of the things I LOVE about that line of roses.

I should also say that I have never seen a mature plant of General Gallieni -- so he may, indeed, be too big. My G. Nabonnand is 5-6 years old, and while he is about 6-ft. wide, I don't think he's over 4-ft. tall. Of course, YMMV.

Pink Gruss an Aachen might also be worth a look. China Doll is smaller, but a cheerful brighter pink, and is normally pretty much a 'perpetual' flowerer. I don't know how either would go for disease resistance or how well they'd bloom in your location/conditions.

:¬)

Was almost set to order Pink Gruss an Aachen!!! the other day...that is truly beautiful. I liked it very much, I decided if not in-ground for this particular spot, will put it in a pot somewhere in the yard. Evidently, based on various posts, it has often rust and mildew problems in here and .... so does beautiful Yves Piaget ::(((

Thank you!

In case you're still considering Cecille Brunner, there's a discussion on at the moment about her over on the ARF. Including how big the 3 different versions get.

:¬)

Thank you. I love her but have to pass. Perhaps, in other life:)

Just FWIW, someone on a current thread on the ARF* reports severe mildew on G Nabonnand in N Calif., Sunset 14. This may well not be the case, as Jeri indicates, in S. Calif.

Do let us know what you eventually choose, and how it works out. It all helps add to the great communal repository of knowledge on these forums.

Good luck!

Comtesse :¬)

* The thread is 'Roses grown in No-Spray Gardens' - 2nd comment down, from Catspa

NB There are two roses with with similar names: The one registered as 'G Nabonnand' (aka 'Gilbert Nabonnand') which is pale coloured and 'Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand', which has brighter coral/pink colourings.

The truth is, nothing in nature is "bullet-proof." Your next-door neighbor is probably the ONLY person who can almost guarantee you a rose will be this, or that.

To some extent, you are going to have to take the hints you've been given, and Take A Chance.

The rose you decide on, may be great, or it may disappoint. It won't show you what it can REALLY do, until you've had it in your garden for 3-4 years. That's gardening. You try different things.

You don't want to know how many roses we have planted and dug up over the last 30-Plus years. We learned something from all of them -- both the successes and the failures.

And the failures? They made great kindling. :-)

Thank you so very much... Aware of two roses "GN" and "Souvenir de GN" - not ordering this rose.

I am in Southern CA, about 7 miles from the beach a bit up the hill, so may be "Gilbert" wouldn't get mildew-:) here.

I've decided to order Gilbert Nabonnand and Pink Gruss an Aachen... I liked this rose so much. I will not plant either or... near my cement wall. "Gruss" will go into a big ceramic pot for the moment and "Gilbert" will go into the ground on the opposite, sunny side of the yard, where he could grow 6 ft. wide and as tall:) as he wants and be beautiful.

I left "Strike It Reach", even severely underdeveloped, in that corner. Let's see if it's looks are going to imrove in another year. If nothing good happens, perhaps a good sport of a modern rose, bought in a 5-gal. container, will have a better start and, eventually, succeed there.

Again, I thank you from the bottom of my heart... and hope you'd forgive me for being such a BIG pain.

Kindest and warmest -:))

Paola

You're not a pain! Never think it!