They can absolutely be saved. You can start by pruning out some main branches in the center to encourage new growth. If the trees are in excellent health otherwise, you can also wack the entire trunk off at say waist level towards the end of next winter when the tree is dormant. Once spring comes, it will push out new shoots that you can train into a new scaffold of branches.

Thanks for the response. How does a person find the best way and time of year to do the pruning?

No, no, do not cut the entire trunk off. An old tree would never recover from such a surgery. It will just die.

For 80+ year old tree, the prime is long past. If there is any sentiment value, keep them. Want to keep them as shade trees, keep them. If not, time to move on. I do not know if they will produce again at this age.

Also, the new varieties taste better, more productive. An you'll likely like smaller dwarf and semi-dwarf trees instead. I suggest just move on....

In the winter when the tree is dormant is the best time to do a lot of serious pruning like heading the tree (Taking the top off). You can prune a few branches out now, and any dead wood you find to see how the tree reacts. I'd start with all the dead wood you can reach. Then move to criss crossing branches, branches that are growing back in towards the center of the tree, and branches growing down. You want to remove no more than 25% of the tree in a year under normal conditions. Since the trees are in serious neglect, you might need to work on them several years to get them back in good shape.

One thing you need to be aware of is if the trees are spur bearing or tip bearing. This is a video from a man in England that explains what an apple spur is. He has some great pruning videos for you to watch including restoration of old apple trees and neglected trees. He tends to ramble a bit but the info is good.

I would think in you're zone is the start of the growing season and you can still cut out some good size limbs to get light in, I'd do about half this year, next year the rest, otherwise you get too many water sprouts. Pruning I do in spring before bud break,..fresh cuts heal faster in the growing season.

Next year I'd be heading back some other limbs to shorten everything.

I do not understand how you can save 80+ year old apple trees by heading, or cutting the entire trunk off. I bet the trunk is very thick, probably 1' diameter.

Also, you can't cut entire scaffold off and expect the tree to re-grow the scaffold back. All the lower half of the trees do not have anything that can grow back. New growth comes from live wood....

You wouldn't think a tree could regrow RedSun and when the tree is sick, diseased, or other outside factors come into play, they can die when headed down to the trunk. When healthy though, they will come back. Check out this blog post from a local grower. The area he is talking about is 20 miles away from me. https://kuffelcreek.wordpress.com/2015/03/13/santas-village-apple-orchard/ I would probably start with opening up the center a bit, getting dead and diseased wood out, and see what happens. I would have no qualms about taking atleast one of the trees down to the trunk though if that was what needed to be done verses removing the tree al together.

RedSun... you questioned whether it is worth saving the trees or starting over. Deciding that is my biggest struggle. My wife likes the tress for the kids to climb in, but is there any chance I will end up with apples on an old tree that could come close to being as good as ones I could get on the new trees of today? Anyone want to weigh in with thoughts on this? I do also like the idea of shorter dwarf trees... these are hard to reach to pick OR prune.

I have 8 apple trees on my property. They are a mix of modern varieties like honeycrisp, king david, and Williams pride and heirlooms such as junaluska and Arkansas black. They will all be pruned to as high as I can reach, between 7-8 feet for ease of picking and pruning. I have tall mature orange and avocado trees that are a pain to pick and prune however they came with the house and the fruit holds a long time so I have kept them large. I would prefer them to be smaller though.

Without tasting your apples, there is no telling if you would better be served to replace them with modern varieties. I can't see making that decision till you try your apples. It would be a shame to remove that old of a tree with that old of a root system unless the apples are no good.

forester7, to be honest with you. Those 80+ year old apple trees have no value, but just some liability. The old tree may break and you'll need to clean up.

fireballsocal is a brave man. For such old and large trees, any decisions are not light ones. It is not like one year old tree, the owner can try this and that. I do not know how tall the trees are, but likely pro tree services are needed even with cutting down a large limb. I know it is free speech and you are trying to help, but we should all be aware of the consequences with any wrong decisions.

forester7, again, to answer your questions:

1. For the trees that have not produced for many years, it is like asking a 55+ old lady to lay baby. Possible, but very unlikely.

2. If you do get any fruits, the variety 80+ years ago won't be as good as the new varieties we have now. You can still argue with me, but the chance is very slim to get good fruits.

3. Today's dward trees are much faster to get established, quicker to bear fruits and bear much heavier than the old dinosaurs.

I'd leave the old trees as shade trees and keep them as is. Never cut off the trunk of very old trees. You'll just kill it. Also it is very dangerous to work on very large trees and pro tree service is needed. The old trees are not worth the risk you could be taking....

Actually some of the old apples are better than the new ones of today. Many heirloom varieties have been lost because they are not commercially profitable but are far superior in taste.

I suggest you follow Konrads advice, and slowly prune back and then possible graft more than one variety onto it as it recovers. When you cut the scaffold off to rejuvinate, the idea is not to wait for the tree itself to regrow new branches, but to graft new wood onto what remains of the branches you removed. It is worth watching the Kuffle Creek videos as well as the ones from Fuitwise, and you will see how drastic some of the trees are cut back before topworking them to new varieties. Actually I believe you end up with apples sooner with this process, as the existing root system helps this process along. And better still, no work doing stump removal.

I wonder? your trees could possibly be a long lost variety that is no longer in existence, given the age. There are people out there who's mission it is to preserve some of these rare apple trees.

My own experience with old apple trees that came with the property: very frustrating. Imagine 10 years of pruning to get the old neglected trees back into shape--like rolling a boulder uphill. It's very difficult to break the cycle of prune/flush of growth/prune.......getting nowhere. I would have been much better off removing the trees and starting over. Fortunately I also planted many other trees at that time and they are coming along fine, with more production each year. If your kids need a tree for swinging....keep them (the trees I mean), but not for fruit. Start some dwarf trees now (B9 is a great rootstock). If the old trees have some value as an heirloom variety, move some scionwood from the old trees over to new rootstocks. I did that from a nearby pioneer orchard, grafting onto rootstocks in my new orchard. Have fun and keep in touch.

Marc

I suggest to contact your local Ag. extention station or your state A&M university. Do not cut the trees before you contact the real experts. For such old trees, the fruit experts may want to study them and make recommendation to you as to what to do. They may even want to preserve them, observe them and study them, all to your benefits.

a few random thoughts on the thread:

1. an old apple tree could have lots of life left.

2. look at steven hayes' youtube channel. there are some interesting videos there

3. old apples can shoot new branches from the first few feet of trunk, easily

4. the tree in question's purpose needs to be defined, it seems. Is it a producer? climbing tree for kids? landscape tree that has too look nice? shade?

5. if the tree should be a producer, cut 4/5 of the tree off (in early early spring) and be, as Steven Hayes says, brutal. Why wait for 10 years like the previous post said when the tree will survive just fine. show the tree who is boss and get the height reduced asap!

6. if you do #5, you'll need to train and prune the new vigorous growth. keep reading this forum for tips or watch Steven.

7. if you do #5, your tree will look fugly for several years. i really mean fugly.

8. grafting to the new shoots (via #5) will add lots of new varieties to your tree and you'll be able to get fruit sooner and in greater quantity than if you planted new dwarfs.

9. if the tree isn't a producer, don't touch it with the exception of starting to thin the canopy out to keep the tree as healthy as possible.

I was in the same spot two years ago that you seem to be in now. instead of chopping it down, which i was close to doing, I brought the height of my tree from 40 feet to 7 feet and did 5 bark grafts. my 70 year old tree went crazy with the grafts along with new growth (4+ feet of new shoots) but i'm pruning it to keep under 9' (i'm 6' 3" so i'll be able to reach every apple). I'm in the process of grafting another 20 varieties this spring so i'll have plenty to choose from along with the original apple. However, I'm also planting a hedge row of ~70 dwarfs since i'm now apple crazy but if i had one tree, it would be my ugly standard that I operated on. it's going to produce lots of different and tasty apples for several more decades! trees want to grow. they are like kids, though, as they need some discipline to grow up properly.

I'll scratch my head with all the "Houzz Expert" advices. Why bother to cut down a 40' tree to 7'? If you are very strong, having nothing to do and want to have your fun, then do it. But it is a dangerous adventure to cut a 40' tall tree and do all the grafting work etc. Better just leave the 40' tall alone and enjoy the shade. If the tree want to grow tall, why you can to confine it to 9' or shorter?

Much easier just to spend $20 on a new tree and you can get some fruits probably next year. Let the kids enjoy the old apple tree and save the sweat on something else.

Again, get some real "expert" advice before you do anything....

It sounds like you have a big place... I would do both! Start pruning out the nice old tree to get some new growth/ manageable size. At the same time get 2-3 new ones (I prefer grafted ones where you can get multiple apple types on one tree) and put them in! See what your old tree still has in it, because you are looking at 3 years until you get apples on the new ones anyway!

why bother cutting a 40' tree? maybe because someone doesn't want to use a ladder and extension poles to get fruit?

i'm not even sure why i'm bothering to reply...

Then why bother???

How can you try to control a 80+ year tree to 7' tall? just for the easy to pick fruits? The full size apple trees just do not grow that way. Against the nature....

I'm not really interested in battling with you, frankly. If you don't believe me I won't lose sleep. For what it's worth, the tree will exist quite happily at around 10' at the top while I trim it routinely. The shorter I'd like it the more attention I'd give it. The forming process will be a several-year effort for me.

I do not think this is a 80+ year old tree. If you have the energy and have fun with it, sure go for it.

But for most of the folks, this is a waste of time. More labor, less production. It is not productive at all. Better spend the time playing with kids.

Well, if you do not have kids to play, then it is a different story....

Some people enjoy playing with the old stuff, like the Pentium II PC. A lot folks already threw them away a long time ago. Just totally different people...

How old do you think the tree is then? And could you please reference some experts that agree with your opinions that an old apple tree isn't worth trying to re-invigorate? I've referenced some pretty good sources and shown that the tree local to me was chopped down yet still pushed new growth out. kbk00 has an actual tree that answers the original topic question exactly. He has actual hands on experience with the process. You sarcastically used the term "Houzz Expert" yet the information is sound, with references and no one here has claimed to be an expert. We are just trying to help one another. Whether or not the original topic starter is better off playing with the kids verses working on his apple trees is his choice to decide. It's our place to provide him the information necessary to make that decision. I don't think you've done a good job of explaining your view point.

You recommended the OP to cut down the entire trunk. Read your first post. I do not think that is something that is prudent....

As I said many times before, if you believe you can save the old trees, then try on your own trees. For OP's situation, DO NOT CUT DOWN THE ENTIRE TRUNK. Very likely that is going to kill the tree, not even considering the cost/effort involved.

Folks have different opinions, which is just fine with me.... You do not have to take it too hard...

Please provide me some references on why it isn't prudent to cut down an apple tree down to the trunk. I have a lot to learn and would appreciate some factual data. Also, please provide info on why cutting the apple tree is very likely to kill it. Even if you had some great references on why my advice and the advice of other posters here was wrong, I wouldn't take it hard. I'd take it as a lesson.

fireballsocal, because I've seen some neighbors who had their trees some haircuts. Quite a few trees died due to severe "haircuts", not even mentioning cutting the entire trunk of 80+ year old tree...

Have you ever heard "crepe myrtle massacre"?

Personally I think kbk00 is perfectly right, and rejuvinating an old tree is not more labor, less production, it usually results in increased production, less labor. Think of the immense amount of energy needed to remove that root system, not to mention the rest of the tree. For my money, that would be too exhausting to contemplate.

Leave it stand, remove as much each year as you have time and energy for, graft some wonderful apples on it which you can enjoy, and watch your beautiful old tree come back into production.

I'm sure kbk00 is very proud of his hard work. But I just do not like the shape of the tree. It is just not natural looking. In its place, I can probably plant 4-5 new apple trees... They will look much better....

ubro(2a), we do not even recommend removing or cutting the trees. Just leave them be what they are.

I do not think the old trees will be more productive than new trees. The new high density planting can provide much higher yield....

Some peer reviewed papers written by some scientists would be great. Videos made by Ag. professors at a University if you can find them. Maybe some apple farmers talking about the dangers of severe pruning or hobby growers cautioning against these "haircuts" would even work. There must be something out there you can reference right? cause it's common knowledge. Or are you an expert?

fireballsocal, why did you ask? Did I say I'm "expert"?

I recommended the OP to seek advice from the real "experts", the folks from the local agriculture extention, or state A&M. Or even some local orchard owners. Not someone from the "Houzz" website! Do Not Listen to Someone From Houzz to cut down the entire tree trunk from chest level high... That is bad advice....

Anyhow, always take free advice with a grain of salt, my opinion included. Houzz, what is Houzz??

I'll give you a chance to Google real "experts" advice on how topping an old apple tree will kill it. No need to reply right away. Take your time. Maybe make a run to the library? What an archaic notion. About as archaic as providing references to ones opinion evidently.

I do not buy the theory of "expert" advice... period. You are not expert, I'm not expert. Just let it be. Let OP to decide by himself... Peace....

I don't want to let it be. You challenged the initial post I made. You said I was wrong and you also said "An old tree would never recover from such a surgery. It will just die." School me. I'm giving you the opportunity to back up your words if you can. The Op has gone and made up his mind already. This is now about you trying to defend your position with nothing but your opinion, in spite of the fact that several other posters (whom you also disagree with) think that the tree is worth at least a try.

Wast of my time.... tired...

Here are photos of the haircut tree I was talking about. I do not know if this is common. But I've heard about it and here it is just not far from me.

The tree received a haircut spring 2014 by the landscape crew, the "professional". New growth only came out of one or two scaffolds. This year, no growth yet. So I believe the tree is dead now. I remember this tree was healthy before they cut it.

Here I'm not to argue with anyone. But I like natural growth. Grow the proper sized tree for the right spot. For both commercial and home growers, production is also super important. We all live at one house for only several years in average. So we do not have the time to wait for very long to work on some projects. So production is very important to most of the folks.

Enjoy the spring...

Butchering a fruit tree should be done in winter while the tree is dormant, as I advised in my initial post. In the spring after the tree has expended it's stored energy into pushing out new leaves puts a lot of stress on the tree. It wants to start collecting the expended nutrients, sugars, and energy from the new leaves but once those leaves are cut off, it has to start over. That tree did, as you said, push out new growth again so the butcher job didn't kill it right away. Looking at the trees in the background and how some seem to still be dormant and others are just starting to push out new growth, I wouldn't discount the tree yet.

I think its great you only like a natural growing tree. In my small yard, even a fruit tree on dwarfing rootstock will grow to 15' which is too large for my needs. I keep my trees manageable for what I want. The local avocado and apple growers have been switching from growing standard height trees to growing shorter trees with more trees in a spacing. Lines of trees that were on 20' centers have been cut to the trunk and another tree planted in between to create 10' centers and then the trees are kept to the 10-15' range for ease of picking. The trees are more productive per acre, and there is much less danger in picking them because the picker isn't 25 feet up in the air.

I'd like to note that many of use here advised the OP to first thin the branches out to rejuvenate the tree and re-establish the apple growing wood. The option of topping the tree down to the trunk was extreme and not what I would do first, however it was an option should that fit the OPs needs. The question was if the trees were worth saving and if they could be salvaged. I answered with a resounding yes to both and stand by my answer. The trees can absolutely be rejuvenated and for you suggest giving up on that old of a tree because its old doesn't make any sense to me. We have many 100+ year old apple trees in my local mountains still producing fruit.

I think I may have mis-spoken. The tree was cut during the dormant season by the landscape company who does their work. That tree is plainly ugly and should have been cut down last year. But it costs a lot more $$ to get that tree cut down. The owner of the house is a lady and she does not do yard work at all.

This is already May and almost all trees have come out of dormancy in our area.

Also you complete mis-read my posts. I never said to cut them down or give up on them. But I'll just let them be what they are. We all have limited amount of time, money and energy. So when you advise the OP, you'll have to be in his shoes. He has young kids and may not have all the time you have. Personally I would not spend any more energy on such old trees, even if they can be restored. They just do not have much value to me. Probably same to the OP. Here is what he said, very clear:

forester7

RedSun... you questioned whether it is worth saving the trees or starting over. Deciding that is my biggest struggle. My wife likes the tress for the kids to climb in, but is there any chance I will end up with apples on an old tree that could come close to being as good as ones I could get on the new trees of today? Anyone want to weigh in with thoughts on this? I do also like the idea of shorter dwarf trees... these are hard to reach to pick OR prune.

So cutting the main trunks of the 80+ year old trees is entirely out of the question. I just do not think the OP would try to restore the trees. He would probably just leave the trees for the kids to play. This is what I'd do.

But hey, if you have tons of time and energy and like to experiment it, sure. But I do not think that is OP's situation...

Anyhow... we all have different feathers...

I don't need to be in the OPs shoes. He can make that decision. He asked a question and I provided an answer, as did you. I provided references to back up my answer when you challenged it. You didn't/couldn't. Adding your opinion is fine but you need to state it as your opinion, not fact.

I think you believe you know what's best for the topic starter and I'm sure you are trying to provide helpful information, however you have been wrong on several points. A point of contention is allowing the OP to use our information to make up his mind. You seem dead set on your opinion being the only one worth following , and the OP should do only as you say. I'm perfectly happy to let the OP make that decision based on what he feels is best for him. Do you see?

Read the last sentence of your bolded quote. He likes the idea of dwarf trees since these are hard to pick/prune at their current height. Bringing the tree down to chest height in the winter then keeping the tree pruned afterward to a manageable height for him would net him the dwarf size trees that he envisions, while saving these old trees and saving him much growing time. So in fact cutting an 80+ year old tree to the trunk is NOT out of the question and could possibly reward the OP with the result he is looking for. That's the reason I suggested such a drastic measure.

fireballsocal, just get over it, man. This gets annoying now.

More waste of my time. Please do not cross me again. Bye, bye....

Hi. We live in SE BC CANADA. We have 65+ year old trio of trees. 2 bear eating apples and another one is the best transparent baking apples ever. We prune them every 2-3 years, in early spring. We only cut back 1/3rd of tree at a time. So, they get to 8-9 ft tall but not a problem. We NEVER cut the main trunk or branches unless a bear has damaged them. Absolutely fabulous apples every second years and decent producing in between. Easy to maintain. Hope this helps.

Haha, this is hilarious. RedSun you are very entertaining. I would rather waste my time with my trees than arguing with everyone about everything. Never cross RedSun again. Lolol