It's really pretty, but I seriously doubt it will turn out to be PGaA. The colors petal textures kind of resemble what you see from Gen Galieni, Rosette Delizy or Mons. Tillier, don't they?

I like the colors; as you say, they're very similar to some of the vividly-colored Teas; I'm not familiar with the blooms of the roses you mentioned, so can't speak to the petal texture being similar. I did briefly wonder if it could be 'Leonie Lamesch', but the leaves are all wrong. The flower is fairly petite, but most of the roses daring to bloom in this heat are pretty small.

I think I've seen enough to know who this isn't, but not who it is...

Thanks,

Virginia

I think it resembles General Gallieni also.

It looks completely different today:

I definitely don't think this is the same as what Marlorena received from Beales... twice.

Is this what's in commerce as 'PGaA' in the U.S., or just a shipping error? It looks rather like this photo at HMF: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.102202

Whatever it is, it's a keeper.

Virginia

..well, what a surprise.... are we looking at Mme Laurette Messimy do you think Virginia? it's not a rose I know, but it seems to turn up rather a lot...

I don't think it's 'MLM', just from looking at the HMF photos; neither the American or European versions seem to match, IMHO. But then, it's not a rose I know either, and if anyone who does grow it, and can confirm or deny, that would be a welcome thing.

I'm wondering if I don't have Spek's 'Gruss an Aachen Rosa'... have a look at that reddish-orange bud on this plant from Loubert:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.153576

It has reddish stems, while my plant doesn't, but I have wondered before if that could be down to climate?

I should probably wait a while to see if it settles down to blooming in clusters. And see what the bloom looks like in more moderate temps. After our recent heat wave, it's a wonder it could manage even one flower, bless its heart.

Virginia

Holy cow! The German wikipedia on 'Gruss an Aachen' lists these sports of 'GaA':

Die 'Gruß an Aachen' besitzt zahlreiche Sports: 'Irene Watts' (Kluis 1929), 'Rosa Gruß an Aachen' (Spek 1930), 'Minna' (Kordes 1930), 'Goldener Gruß an Aachen' (Wilhelm Kordes 1935), 'Jean Murour' (Vogel 1935), 'Climbing Gruß an Aachen' (Wilhelm Kordes 1937), 'Gruß an Aachen Superior' (Leenders 1942) und 'Weißer Gruß an Aachen' (Vogel 1944).

Virginia

As Kim said these are all variations on the same theme.
FYI, Loubert's PG is less vigorous....

Yes, I would expect sports of one rose to be variations on the same theme.

Have you grown Loubert's rose yourself, and it's less vigorous that what?

Confused,

Virginia

Sorry Virginia, I was alluding to the Francis Dubreuil thread

I'm going to re-quote myself (April 9, 2015 at 4:25AM)

I contacted Loubert and they told me their IW and PG are the same. One is less vigorous than the other:
Here is the original email from Loubert's:
I don't know where my predecessors got Irène Watts. It is true that it is identical to Pink Gruss, however I find it less vigorous. It is true there exists numerous confusions between the two.

Emphasis by me.

..regarding the vigour as expressed by Loubert, that sounds like my two roses but the other way around... how weird is all this...

So, Bob, does Loubert have both 'Rosa Gruss an Aachen' (Spets) and 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' (Kluis)? I was under the impression that Kluis' 'PGaA' was the sport mistaken for 'Irene Watts'...

The ID I was wondering about for my particular rose was Spek's version, not Kluis's.

Virginia

Marlorena, I did wonder about 'Gruss an Aachen Superior' when I read that it was blush pink. I think all members of the 'GaA' clan must be variable in terms of vigor, as well as appearance...

Aspirin all around- my treat!

Virginia

It is virtually impossible to know whose sport of any of these a particular nursery offers, unless there is something so absurdly unique to one over all others by which to differentiate it. That makes it difficult on the HMF database to post information, comments and photos. Unless you have records to prove from which introducer the mutation was obtained and a history of preserving that specific line, who's to know whose is offered? At this point, most should simply be combined under one name underwhich to collect all the data. You can see how consumer pressure can easily lead to one form replacing all the others over time. Why would you order a weaker, less vigorous mutation instead of a vigorous performer? Eventually, the one not selling well is going to lose out to the more popular variation.

I think it's quite possible that Marlorena could have Kluis' 'PGaA', while I have Spek's 'Rosa GaA'. They certainly look different, so it isn't just a question of vigor (although with her two clones of PGaA', I do think it's a question of vigor masked by the use of two different names).

Poulsen described Spek's sport as swaying "between pink and rose-red". I don't know that Kluis' sport does that?

I agree that it's tricky to have separate records if you want to look at photos, but I think that's because users don't always choose the correct record for uploading their photos (or even realize that there is another record, or know how to differentiate the sports, in this case). But I like having separate records for checking on references, history, description, etc.

It does seem strange that a pink sport of 'GaA' would be introduced in 1929, and then an identical pink sport would be released the following year. Perhaps it was just about marketing, but maybe they were at least as different from one another as they were from the parent?

I dunno.

Virginia

I forgot to mention that another reason someone might want to distinguish between the two pink sports would be if one were hardier than the other. I seem to recall that 'Gruss an Aachen' has been mentioned as an unusually hardy floribunda, but I don't know if that is true for any of its sports, all of its sports or just some of them.

Virginia

Not strange at all. In a number of cases, the sport may not have been available in the other countries or ego may easily have been involved. Why have to promote you as the discoverer when I can promote myself? I don't disagree about the potential benefit of differentiating between competing sports, as long as there actually are differing benefits. I question the integrity of being able to actually know whose sport it really is after 80+ years.

Virginia, I have 'Mme Laurette Messimy' and it definitely doesn't match your rose, so you can scratch that possibility. And in an unrelated note, I'm elated that the 'R. moschata' cutting I sent you has finally bloomed! I hope it becomes big and lush for you in time.

:-)

~Christopher

Virginia, Loubert's site info is not correct.

Here are the photo links of IWs, which I posted on our original post:

Irène Watts 1

Irène Watts 2

Irène Watts 3

Irène Watts 4

Irène Watts 5

Irène Watts _ Loubert's at L'Haÿ

Kim, would the sports would be genetically identical and morphologically different?
It would be interesting if one of Dr. Manners students would decide to do the DNA test: On all the Grüss, Mme Laurette, Odee Pink.....

They could easily be. Look at all the variations of Old Blush which are genetically identical but "different". I would not be at all surprised to find the same thing with all the various versions of Slater's Crimson China.

Thanks Kim!

Christopher, are you sure you've got the correct MLM?
It should be Pink with a yellow heart....

Yes, I'm very sure. It came from Vintage Gardens and is like a pastel version of my 'Comtesse du Cayla'. As I mentioned previously in the "Where are they now?" thread, the "real" MLM is also available from Rose Petals Nursery and Roses Unlimited. Angel Gardens sells the imposter 'Unermüdliche', and so does Antique Rose Emporium -- despite ARE's photo of the "real" thing.

:-)

~Christopher

Great Christopher. Thanks for reminding me :-)

I found only one pic of a bloom on my MLM, taken two years ago when it was still a tiny band potted up to encourage growth before being planted. Unfortunately, the following Winter was unusually harsh, and it was cut back to the mulch line. Then, any new growth it managed to push kept getting smashed by neighborhood cats on their way to roll in the Nepeta I planted nearby. I had to "cage" the poor thing with sticks to save it, and then the following Winter hit it hard again. Finally, now it's about 8" tall and sending lots of new growth. I allowed it only one bloom to remind myself that it'd be worth the TLC, and have been disbudding it ever since. As a result, I don't have any other bloom pics now, but the next bud I see I'll allow to develop and take a pic. As I remember from two years ago, bloom color varies in intensity. The pic below shows it at about its palest, but they got darker as temps increased.

Kim, I think we're on (pretty much) the same page. It's pretty obvious from our recent explorations into mis-named roses in commerce that many (often I think most!) roses' provenances are dicey at best. (Which reminds me that I meant to ask if you know anything about 'Ispahan', and its origins...)

It doesn't actually make me gnash my teeth when I visit a rose record at HMF, and see photos of two or more obviously different varieties, but I often do clench my teeth a bit... I was envisioning what would happen if we had all the sports for various roses clumped together even if they looked and grew different, but that isn't what you were suggesting, is it?

Poulsen may have already been writing too long after the introductions of 'Pink GaA' and 'GaA Rosa' to properly distinguish them, but I'm supposing that he would have been aware that there were (at least) two pink GaA sports, and his comment about swaying between rose-red and pink makes me think he may have been talking about an earlier clone of my rose. My rose is getting darker again with the heat (or maybe that's just how it ages).

I can't prove that this is Spek's sport, but I'm not sure it can be disproven, either, and that may be as close to a good ID as I'll get. Sometimes good enough is good enough. It's sort of like trying to ID one of those practically identical red Chinas; at some point you just decide what you're going to call it even if you're not 100% sure.

Bob, I agree that it would be interesting to compare my rose, Marlorena's roses, 'Mme Laurette', "Odee Pink" and 'Gruss an Aachen' to see what differences/similarities crop up. Heck- let's make it a party and test 'Cels Multiflora' and 'Ping Dong', too! It sounds like Dr Manners has plenty of stuff for his students to test already, but bye-and-bye some of those roses may get their DNA examined.

Virginia

Christopher, thanks for the info about- and photo of- 'Mme Laurette'. I really like her and la 'Comtesse'. The Chinas I have so far are in the cool color range, but I hope to eventually get some of the warmer-toned ones, also.

I was pretty happy to see (and smell) R. moschata blooming, but also a bit confused, since I got out of the rose-inspecting loop for about a week, and didn't notice the buds. I think it will probably get moved to a larger pot pretty soon, since it recently started getting a bit of PM (as you can see in the photo below), and it had been clean before.

Thanks again,

Virginia

Looking a bit chlorotic -- maybe sprinkle some Ironite on the soil surface?

:-)

~Christopher

Poulsen would have had the registration information for whatever had been registered to the point of his writing. It wasn't until the eighties into the nineties the Europeans began thumbing their noses at the ARS about registrations. There had never been any charge to register a rose until the ARS decided they would charge something like $25 per variety for registration. Virtually ever "foreign" rose stopped being registered for many years. Until then, many roses ran through the IRAR, operated by the ARS. Yes, it would be fun to be able to collect every variation of them in one place to document any differences. The best we could hope for would be to attempt to match performance with any documented variations between them. But, if one mutated to a weaker grower for introducer X, why would one of them NOT do it again for someone else?

Christopher, that may be the lighting, but I'll look at the leaves again in the morning...

The particular pattern of chlorosis (little cross veins staying green) suggests manganese deficiency.

Despite the name, Ironite has more than just iron in it -- click the link for the MSDS info. I keep a bag handy for whenever I see any kind of chlorosis -- typically Multiflora-derived roses get a bit in early Spring, and sometimes potted bands in soil-less mixes -- and it works for me.

:-)

~Christopher

Indeed, Ironite (the original pellets, not the liquid) has more manganese in it than most commonly available fertilizers. I have some that I bought for that purpose.

On the other hand, it is mine waste that contains heavy metals, though they are supposed to be permanently tied up and insoluble.

Wow, I wasn't aware of its origin. Now I'm googling more information about it, and I think I'll find a different mineral supplement from now on.

:-/

~Christopher

Spot application of manganese sulfate (MnSO4) in the root zone (may be combined with ammonium sulfate to locally and temporarily lower pH in the root zone in high pH soils assisting Mn absorption) or preferably foliar application of manganese sulfate (test for tissue damage first) or chelated manganese (MnEDTA) is what I would do to correct manganese deficiencies. Do not apply chelated manganese through the soil, it is expensive and usually inefficient. I apply MnSO4 foliarly to my citrus when Mn deficiency symptoms persist through the season. Mn deficiency symptoms (at least on citrus, maybe on roses too) may not persist in which case I do nothing.

I see you can buy manganese sulfate on Amazon.

In the 'For what it's worth' department:

From the American Rose Annual, 1932, Vol 17, p.211

Pink Gruss an Aachen.* D. Poly. (Kluis & Koning, 1929.) Sport of Gruss an Aachen with much fuller salmon-pink flowers. First Class Certificate.

Rosa Gruss an Aachen.* D. Poly. (J. Spek, 1930) Sport of Gruss an Aachen. Like parent in all characteristics except that color is a satiny yellowish pink.

The ARS gave out cards to rose introducers to fill out the details; if there's an asterisk after the rose name, that means the card was filled out by the introducer. I wonder if they each filled out 'Dwarf Polyantha', though, or if that was an ARS decision?

Something else that caught my attention is that Kluis & Koning and Jan Spek had their nurseries in Boskoop. (So did the Kosters, the Grootendorsts and other rosarians you may have heard of.) Small world, eh?

Virginia

And while I'm here, I might as well post a few photos of new growth on my plant for comparison with Marlorena's... The coloring is pretty similar, actually.

And here's a look at one of the older leaves:

Virginia

Isn't it fun discovering all the old, historic information in the old books? The ARS annuals prior to the seventies are chock full of wonderful information. The twenties through WWII are the best, but there are treasures in the fifties, sixties and seventies, too. Some of the ARS funded floral research was quite interesting.

Kim, I need more time to read all these things. It's crazy how much great info can be found online now- for free! I'm suffering from information overload... I go to look something up, and find out something fascinating about some other rose, and I end up with all these open windows on my computer... Yeah, it's pretty cool.

But the great thing about the ARS info was that it came from the two introducers. And the fact that they were both growing and introducing roses in Boskoop, and were members of the same nursery organization... well, that makes it seem pretty unlikely that there weren't two distinct sports to start out with.

Have they both survived without mutating? That's a whole 'nother ball of wax, but I am struck by the similarity of my young rose to the descriptions (such as they are) of Spek's badly named sport. Now I need a good clone of 'Gruss an Aachen' for comparison. Oh, but that was another thread, right? :>)

Virginia

Virginia... the purple leaves on your rose look the same but I don't find the other leaves to be so similar.... I'm posting a couple of photos taken today of my 'Irene Watts'[Pink Gruss] to compare.... mine appear to be glossier and larger....and not as sharply serrated as on yours...

... I feel sure mine is the 1929 floribunda as everything I read about it seems to fit....

..my other Pink Gruss that performs badly has been removed from my border and placed in a pot for now....

'Irene Watts'[Pink Gruss an Aachen] foliage...

..still looking good...

Marlorena, the blooms and leaves are different, I think, and I agree that you probably have the Kluis 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'. I also think- though I can't say that I know- that I have the Spek 'Rosa Gruss an Aachen' AKA 'Gruss an Aachen Pink'. Such clunky names... it's too bad they didn't name them after their wives or daughters or pet rabbits...

That said, I don't think your rose is so very different from mine that they couldn't both be sports from the same (rather mutable) rose. Especially when we factor in the rather different growing conditions in your part of the world and in mine. I suspect that the different garden conditions may account for some of the differences in plant color. The roses I have that do have reddish/purplish new growth tend to turn green fairly quickly.

I'm glad at least one of your plants is settling in nicely; hopefully the other will catch up to it with a bit of time.

Virginia

..just testing...I'm having problems posting here right now...

aah..ok...

...yes Virginia, I also find some German names quite a mouthful which is why I'm happy to stick with 'Irene Watts'... I hope she was a nice person, even though it's not her rose..

...do you keep all your roses in pots? I think I read somewhere that you do, or mostly so, at the moment.... I hope yours does well for you, it will be interesting to see how it goes in your climate....I shall want to know if it grows much bigger than it does for me...

...I have some more roses arriving this week, I've been on a spending spree...

..here's the first... albeit a modern floribunda but who cares... I love it already, and look at these glowing stamens...

'Wild Rover' [Dickson, 2007]

This, too, comes into the 'For what it's worth' department ....

I was just reading Peter Beales 'A Passion for Roses' (published in 2004) and noted the following comment he made in the section on Floribundas -

"A few roses are completely timeless, and two of these I must mention here: 'Grüss an Aachen' and its sport 'Pink Grüss an Aachen'. 'Grüss an Aachen' is a superb rose, introduced in 1909, and one of the best cluster-flowered roses ever raised. Its colour is a soft flesh-pink, changing to cream in maturity, and it is fragrant and very free flowering; it is also tidy in habit and perfect for both bedding and group planting, 'Pink Grüss an Aachen' is a much deeper pink but in all other respects exactly the same, and just as charming. I confess to being one of a number of nurserymen who, until recently, have distributed the pink form erroneously as 'Irène Watts', a mistake I regret but have now rectified"

So, I wonder where the Beales nursery sourced their 'Irène Watts' stock when they realised that what they had previously sold as that rose was in fact the PGaA?

Tricia

..thanks for the quote Tricia...interesting to hear what the late Mr Beales had to say on the matter, but I'm not sure it ever got rectified when they're still selling a clone as 'Irene Watts'... and importantly I think, insisting on its authenticity, as they did with me...

The "Wild Rover" rose looks yummy. I love that shade of purplish-pink, and the yellow stamens really set it off.

..those stamens give off a clove scent, but you have to stick your nose right in there.....I'm glad you like it... I hope it stays reasonably clean for me here...

Marlorena, I'm reviving this old thread to ask if your two plants eventually 'evened up'... that is, do they now look pretty much alike, or are there still obvious differences?

A year later, my plant has put on size, but the blooms are pretty much as they were in the photos I posted above.

Always curious,

Virginia

hi Virginia,

...I no longer have the smaller clone, it went some time ago as the ''Irene Watts'' plant was double in size in every way, with double the number of buds, so I thought it pointless to keep the other. Perhaps I should have done, but I felt my experiment was over.

I moved the ''IW'' clone during winter so started out again with it virtually, so it's just regaining its size.

Sorry I can't answer your query, and this is the only photo I've taken of it this year, strangely. It was the first bloom for the season - hence the date. I'm afraid I take note of the first bloom date on all my roses [sad]..

''Irene Watts'' [Beales]

I've found it to be more pink this year without the apricot tones I had last season but perhaps that's still to come. We've had nothing but rain.

I still find it's quite dissimilar to the one in your photos earlier in the thread.

Thanks, Marlorena- I was wondering how that saga ended.

Perhaps they would have become more alike, but more probably the rose you kept was the more vigorous clone, and the other would always be less vigorous and lagging behind.

That is a lovely flower; I might have to try ordering PGaA from another source to see if I get a plant like yours...

Virginia