A couple of things: Yes, it is a real shame that vendors around the world continued to sell this rose under both names for so many years after the supposed 'Irene Watts' (from Sangerhausen) sported back to the white 'Gruss an Aachen' in the garden at Mottisfont. That one plant (in a group of three - there is no 'bed' of 'Irene Watts' here) was subsequently labelled as "Pink Gruss an Aachen (Irene Watts)", and the two UK nurseries it was given to informed (Mottisfont does not sell its own roses). All the roses from Sangerhausen which came to Graham Thomas or Mottisfont unlabelled or mis-identified were given freely to nurseries - several remain questionable. There is no 'curator' at Mottisfont - just the Head Gardener who has been there for thirty years. Kim Rupert wrote on this Forum when the note that now appears on 'HelpMeFind' was first published that he is not 'a botanist for the Huntingdon', nor has any genetic testing/tissue culture been carried out. He, like many other good rosarians, noticed and questioned the mistake. I am sure that the rose amateurs who carry out this sort of 'research' are well-meaning, but in these days of the internet and email it is not really that hard to ask the people concerned. The information is out there. I guess meanwhile I shall have to repeat this every year when the question comes up :) Peter Beales, by the way, has repeatedly tried to find and source the 'real' Irene Watts from around the World. You would be surprised at the number of contenders that appear from all corners of the Earth! None have yet proved to be significantly different - though as all who grow her know - she assumes many shapes, shades and styles in different climates and seasons. Best wishes Jon

stefanb8,I got the plant in February 2006. I also see only 'Gruss an Aachen' when I look at my Beales' (true) Irene Watts! As to the color difference, anntn6b gave me very important information. Her Nancy Steen's book has black and white photos. Mine has color photos. Maybe the photos in my book were colorized with the automated colorizing programs which anntn6b mentioned in her posting. Jeri, thank you for your interest! And thank you for your information about the Huntington's Teas and Chinas. berndoodle, I felt just the same thing as you mentioned when I first saw the leaves of my TRUE Irene Watts. They are not the leaves of China roses! "Carnation" has China-like leaves. Quite similar to Madame Laurette Messimy's. I got "Carnation" this spring. I also have Madame Laurette Messimy. And I have Archduke Charies which I suppose Irene Watts' pollen parent. I'm going to watch these three varieties closely. Akira

Coloration is quite variable on both 'Gruss an Aachen' and 'Pink Gruss an Aachen'. Temperature definitely impacts the color of both and, to a lesser degree, so does soil composition. The rose that Beales is selling these days as 'Irene Watts' appears to be very pink. It's interesting that on the Beales 'Irene Watts' page (link below), photos of 'Gruss an Aachen' and 'Pink Gruss an Aachen' are also featured. In describing the two varieties, Beales notes subtle differences between IW and PGaA. It would be interesting indeed to see those two plants from his nursery growing side by side. The 'Irene Watts' photo at HMF that I find most intriguing (because it looks the least like PGaA) is Nancy Steen's 45+ yr old photo (posted at HMF by Patricia Routley). Here is a link that might be useful: Beales

Ingrid, I should have known that Vintage would be the one that would carry both Pink Gruss & Pretty Jessica! What would we do without those guys? I also highly admire what I have seen of their 'White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth'. But I am trying to just appreciate the roses that I have right now. I'm glad you're getting Pink Gruss this December. Each fall, including right now, the blooms on my Pink Gruss roses have a look that is the epitome of the reproduction "old rose" bloom to me. And although certainly not an OGR, Pink Gruss is actually an "old" rose. David Austin, eat your heart out :-) And yes, I have some of my Pink Gruss roses in partial sun and they do fine (they are just not as full of a plant as the ones in full sun). Elaine, yep, I've heard that all 'Irene Watts' sold in this country are actually 'Pink Gruss'. Seems like I also read that the true 'Irene Watts' may actually be extinct. Randy