Folks....This is getting a bit of hand. One has to think if some people have nothing better to do than to make mountains out of molehills. Some of you who responded, have clearly not even read my post. If you don't read, please don't make a reply to it. In fact, I never stated that I consulted an attorney. I just said that an attorney has been consulted. And I wanted to point out that if you damage a person's livlihood as a result of unsubstantiated slander, you can be held accountable. Be careful what you say. This is not a threat of lawsuit, just some good advice. It is easy to state your 'experience' here with no facts to verify that what you say is true. Had you complained to us we would have the facts of what the item was and what was said in the description, etc. Any negative comments made here, without facts to back it up, is just worthless prattle. If you have a complaint, do something substantial and use our feedback protocol. I will explain this later. Let me say it once again: No one has the right to stifle the FACTS. That is never the intention in any of my posts. It is the damaging assumptions and implications that have been made that have INDEED damaged Marvin....implications and even statements MADE PUBLICALLY, that he was deliberatly trying to rip people off...WHICH IS CLEARLY NOT THE CASE. There was a lack of communication to his buyers, yes, and a couple of mistakes. This is very different than what some were saying. Most of this misunderstanding and mis-information can be avoided if people would simply follow the Lily Auction Feedback protocol: 1) Contact the seller first if you have a dispute. 2) If no response or inadequate response given by seller, then do contact us. 3)If you are not happy with the result of the above 2, then leave FACTUAL negative feedback. And know that if a seller is proven to be abusive or negligent in fulfilling orders, they will be suspended from the Lily Auction. This feedback system is already in place and works just fine if people would use it as it was meant to be used. Steve, thanks for your comments and sanity. I understand your "head scratching" though. Here is how I understand the legalities, in layman's language: Emotional, defamatory or judgmental feedback can be considered libelous. Comments like: 'Seller sent bad plants & 'ignored' my emails" is different from saying 'I was not happy with plants and got no reply from my many emails' which is factual. Comments like, 'this seller is a crook and is deliberately ignoring me' is clearly libelous. If you have any doubt about what is libelous, then you should ask attorney. If your comments are factual, you do not have to worry. Also, a seller may never respond negatively to a buyer unless the buyer does not pay or is verbally abusive. Moreover, retaliatory feedback is NOT allowed. So buyers should feel free to leave honest and factual feedback without fear of retaliation. Please folks, if you still feel that the Lily Auction is a good place to shop then please use our feedback system as it was meant to be used. Looks like a couple of you don't like it. That is your prerogative. But don't blame anyone but yourself for not using the feedback system if you did not report a bad experience. One person stated that 'Daylily people' are not 'nice' people. Boy, if anything is the exact opposite of the truth, this statement was. Generally, daylily people are wonderful. I have met some of the nicest people in the world through daylilies....through the Lily Auction, other venues, and conventions. There are definitely exceptions though, as with anything else. I can tell you with absolute confidence, that it it only 1/10th of 1% that are problems. Certainly fraud of any kind must be exposed and not tolerated. But this was not a case of fraud. Marvin must reconcile his mistakes, and he is doing just that, and he must also take responsibility for his lack of communication. My experience with him is that he is a humble man, overwhelmed with orders this spring, and on the verge of tears to me on the phone about this whole incident. I see no reason why we cannot both hold him responsible, which he clearly does himself, as well as treat him with kindness. I don't see this as a matter of either/or. Truth with compassion, has always been the high road for me. Sincerely, Mike Longo

Signs of the times. Real or invented some are funny. Sign over a Gynecologist's Office "Dr. Jones, at your cervix." ---------------------------------------- In a Podiatrist's office: "Time wounds all heels." ---------------------------------------- On a Septic Tank Truck in Oregon: "Yesterday's Meals on Wheels" ---------------------------------------- On another Septic Tank Truck: "We're #1 in the #2 business" ---------------------------------------- At a Proctologist's door: "To expedite your visit please back in." ---------------------------------------- On a Plumber's truck: "We repair what your husband fixed." ---------------------------------------- On another Plumber's truck: "Don't sleep with a drip. Call your plumber." ---------------------------------------- On a Church's Billboard: "7 days without God makes one weak." ---------------------------------------- At a Tire Shop in Milwaukee: "Invite us to your next blowout." ---------------------------------------- On a Plastic Surgeon's Office door: "Hello. Can we pick your nose?" ---------------------------------------- At a Towing company: "We don't charge an arm and a leg. We want tows." ---------------------------------------- On an Electrician's truck: "Let us remove your shorts." ---------------------------------------- In a Nonsmoking Area: "If we see smoke, we will assume you are on fire and take appropriate action." ---------------------------------------- On a Maternity Room door: "Push. Push. Push." ---------------------------------------- At an Optometrist's Office : "If you don't see what you're looking for, you've come to the right place." ---------------------------------------- On a Taxidermist's window: "We really know our stuff." ---------------------------------------- On a Fence: "Salesmen welcome! Dog food is expensive!" ---------------------------------------- At a Car Dealership: "The best way to get back on your feet - miss a car payment." ---------------------------------------- Outside a Muffler Shop: "No appointment necessary. We hear you coming." ---------------------------------------- In a Veterinarian's waiting room: "Be back in 5 minutes. Sit! Stay!" ---------------------------------------- At the Electric Company : "We would be delighted if you send in your payment. However, if you don't, you will be." ---------------------------------------- In a Restaurant window : "Don't stand there and be hungry. Come on in and get fed up." ---------------------------------------- In the front yard of a Funeral Home : "Drive carefully. We'll wait." ---------------------------------------- At a Propane Filling Station , "Thank heaven for little grills." ---------------------------------------- Chicago Radiator Shop: "Best place in town to take a leak."

"It is interesting that only those who have deep Christian religious feelings would like to close this thread, as if they feel threatened by discussions about religion and its appropriatemess in the courtroom or a public forum. As terricks wrote, no one had to even open this thread." I am not a Christian, and am not threatened by discussions about religion. What I am threatened by is the attempt to eradicate any expression of religion from public venues in this country. As to saying that no one had to open this thread - does that mean that someone like me should have looked at the word "prayer", thought "uh-oh" and stayed away? Or having opened it, should not have commented? As to the thread being about the OP's letter to the courtroom - that's true. But only up to the ninth post, where the topic was taken beyond the court. Then people gradually began writing about schools, the Pledge, etc., making it a discussion about Christianity in public life. There's certainly nothing wrong with that. But it was inevitable that others would post with opposing attitudes, being as we have free speech in this country. And that's why the Garden Web has specific rules stated on almost every forum that discussions about religion and politics are not going to be tolerated and that Hot Topics was created for that purpose. FWIW, Mohammed is not a deity; in fact, the suggestion that he is, is a grave offense to believers. That's why the religion of Muslims is called Islam and not Mohammedanism. As for Jews and Muslims being offended by a prayer offered by a Christian - if the prayer doesn't mention Jesus, there can't possibly be any offense. Prayers by the three Abrahamic religions that only mention God are virtually interchangeable. Barb5 - Slavery is indeed condoned (by lack of condemnation) in the Old Testament. That's why I wrote the New Testament. Anyone who reads the NT and comes away thinking that slavery is okay, has not understood the NT. Addressing your question about churches in the Soviet Union: Certain Russian Orthodox and Baptist churches were permitted to remain open. KGB men attended services and kept notes on who attended. Clergymen were expected to cooperate with the KGB; if not, they went to the Gulag. Communism in its inception was atheist, e.g. Marx's statement that "religion is the opium of the people" was taken seriously by the militant atheists. Stalin actually tried to get rid of the Orthodox Church, but was unsuccessful. You are right, though, in your belief that religion was hated; a practicing believer was watched, watched, watched, and public religiousity was against the law (although the word "law" and the USSR barely go together).

Still going through over 20 pgs of small-type print, but I wanted to drop in to clarify a couple of points really fast. 1) DD has no "problems" socially. She tells me often about how people react with disbelief at the fact that 1) she's really smart even though she wears mascara and straightens her hair (quiet laughter on my part here--such a HUGE change from last year!) and 2) she homeschooled up until last year, because she 'seems so normal' (makes her laugh every time). We learned through our years of homeschooling that stereotypes are powerful and can be powerfully misleading, and often say more about the person who's making the assumptions than they do about the person who's being stereotyped. She's made many people reconsider their stereotypes and pigeonholes. It's eerie how quickly and easily she slid into complete comfort at this mega-size school, but I give lots of credit not only to her but to the atmosphere the school creates - so far, people seem to fall over themselves to say sweet, supportive things to each other. She's got a wide circle of social friends and a good tight circle of close friends. She's got no fear at all, and is happy being id'd as a 'music nerd' since the music program at the school is big and high-profile. In fact, the one time some of the 'popular' girls tried to do a 'mean girls' thing to her in science class, she laughed at them and acted it right back at them (at least I did my homework preparing her by having her read all the 'Reviving Ophelia' and Queen Bee' -type books--thanks, Amy!!) so hilariously that they ended up inviting her to their table and have become good friends (I've seen it corroborated when I pick her up from things). Those aren't the kids she prefers to hang out with, but I mention it to show that she's got social skills that people may not associate with the stereotypical 'homeschooler'. Our world-learning wasn't stereotypical, either -- I hardly taught her anything, actually -- I was more like the concierge who found resources to facilitate her exploring her interests, and chauffeur to her various classes/activities. She's also comfortable being in advanced classes, has no problem with it, and she'll be doing AP classes next year and IB after that, and there are always options to take more advanced math at a local CC or state U. My only problem is that she's now letting the institution determine how curious she is about something--if she does enough to meet an assignment, she's done. No more investigating something for its own sake. It's *sad* to watch that really exciting drive in her life extinct itself (or more hopefully, go dormant). Which leads me to 2) A couple of years ago, I started volunteering solidly back in my field, and I'm gearing up to try to find paying work in it, albeit at a much lower level than before. I love what I do, I'm *thrilled* to be back in it, and I'm seriously not a stereotypical 'helicopter' mom. So not. Since she was about 10, I've actually tried not to be too involved, so she can have her own space in her activities. A somewhat extreme example: DD keeps asking me to be an orchestra-mum in the city orchestra she's in (you sit through all rehearsals and do volunteer work), but I just won't do it. The vast majority of those are stage-moms who make my skin crawl--the ones I think I talked about in another thread who seem to think that nonstop bragging is the highest form of conversation, and I don't want to be around them because they feel toxic to me. I want to relate to her orchestra in a positive way without all the drama. So I take her there and pick her up but don't prostrate myself before the altar of the conductor. We did arrange to have DH's company match our donation to this group, though -- the first time an employee had donated to the group at all, which is really strange, considering my DH's company's dominant position in the area. So we give in the way we feel most comfortable without hovering or pushing. I'll let moms who want to do that have the face time with the conductor. So I hope these further details maybe clarify some vaguenesses or misconceptions. I also hope you all know how unbelievably much your thoughts and support, and individual stories you've shared mean to me and my DH. He's reading the printout too and we'll have more specific thoughts later. The folks who come to this forum are gems, every one. And beyond that, the web is phenomenal, and not at all just a replacement for RL relationships; as you have pointed out, it offers opportunities and resources that RL just can't, sometimes. Anyway, I lerve you all : ) (oh, and the Greece thing -- I realize it may sound like she was sitting in a closet coming up with plans for the world, but it was actually for Model UN and is documented in her position papers as Greece's "Environmental Minister" (LOL) from last year. She actively participated in MUN with her resource center's team last year even though she was only an '8th grader', but this year at the huge/high school, MUN is overenrolled, so only Juniors and Seniors actually get to go to the event. There's an example of a very tangible difference in activities/involvements available to homeschoolers and to public schoolers...: ()