Well, I for one am glad you sprung for the toll! Thanks so much for the photos!

The I. chinensis does look similar to those at the US arboretum labeled 'purpureum', but who knows? Likely they were grown from seed from a colder-zone source with other species of holly around, so you never really know whether it's a pure species. That X OP does throw you off.

I sure hate to see all that bronzing and leaf damage. I wonder if dormant buds were also damaged. If so, too many years in a row like this could lead to severe plant decline and death.

'Damn deer', I must add.

Sure wish I could get up there some day.

"Sure wish I could get up there some day."
Oh you're really not missing much. You'd definitely want to to see Longwood, Tyler, Morris...heck even the University of Delaware collection before seeing this one. Other than hollies there _seems_ to be very little that's remarkable or interesting to an advanced horticulturalist there. Some of the hollies are being strangled by massive poison ivy vines. Many plants are poorly grown with multiple leaders. There are some pretty I. cassine var. angustifolia hybrids with very thin leaves that are near death from being shaded out. Who really needs to go up there is someone like Bill Kuhl to propagate what's worthwhile to propagate: a lot of those plants would do better in Baltimore. (though I think a particular problem with McLean nursery is it is on a very cold ridge north of Baltimore, and probably not like the climate of much of the city or county closer to the bay)
They do have this fine Abies firma, which shows the very characterstic branching habit of that species:

But as you can also see in that picture: a totally dead conifer, and one with a bad split leader trunk. The other non-descript Abies on the left, perhaps just a balsam fir, is forming a split leader, too.

BTW I just realized these pictures should click to enlarge...though I swear a couple weeks ago that didn't seem to work for me.

A particular problem with McLean Nursery is they DON'T EVEN HAVE A WEBSITE or LIST OF VARIETIES THEY ARE GROWING! (yelling intended). I really think they could do some good business if people know what they had. It would be worth the drive.

I think a lot of these older holly society people are resistant to technology.

I. chinensis Sims. has in the past been considered a synonym of I. purpurea Hassk. You wouldn't expect this or I. perado to be hardy in a cold climate - I. purpurea gets nailed periodically even in Britain. The grouping of I. purpurea that used to be in the old Holly Collection at the Seattle arboretum* had a tall habit with single trunks. These were on a wooded site in USDA 8. The dumpy habit of the one shown here makes me think the site there is strictly marginal for it, causing it to hunker down.

I. perado and I. x altaclerensis 'Wilsonii are similar. I have studied trees grown at the Kruckeberg Botanic Garden near Seattle as I. perado closely and found them to be identical to the 'Wilsonii' hybrid cultivar. Perhaps the same mistake is present in collections elsewhere, with the English holly half of the cultivar's parentage enabling it to live where I. perado may not. Otherwise as mentioned there is the supposedly hardier version of I. perado to consider also.

*This previously rather exceptional collection - which drew the
attention of British holly expert Susyn Andrews - was broken up awhile
back and replaced with a different, landscape architecture style
display that dovetails somewhat with nearby southern hemisphere theme plantings

Well Dave I can't feel too bad about McLean; they don't mail order for one thing. You're going to go there to buy plants anyhow. Their prices are very reasonable. Mr. Kuhl must be close to 70 I guess and bought the nursery from Mr. McLean in the early 1970s I believe. He's no spring chicken and I recommend making the most of that source while one can.

Bboy (still trying to get used to Firetree - the full name is too long, Embo sounds like something an ER physician would say...I can't cut & paste because houzz makes your name a hyperlink) thanks for the additional tips on ID. I agree it would kinda be ridiculous for any plant from the Atlantic Islands to be hardy in New Jersey. However at one time this was clearly seriously curated by someone with a PhD, I forget the guy's name but I think it is briefly mentioned in one of the books about hollies, and I'm not sure I want to entirely rule out a correct ID either.

As for the supposed I. chinensis - this whole collection is so poorly cared for I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from the current plant habit. There are various tree stumps around. Maybe they were shaded at some point. Maybe deer heavily browsed them when they were small plants. In December like I said they looked like moderately desirable garden plants and this was the coldest winter since 1994 - colder than the last - so they haven't been seeing this kind of damage every year since then. I've seen much worse looking BLEs in public gardens. One of the other specimens I didn't photograph had a more upright habit, but looked even worse.

Actually I remember that the more upright one was shaded by a larger holly.
Maybe the ones in Seattle were upright simply because of the shade.
Many BLEs like the ring-cupped oaks (not to forget Quercus virginiana) have a rounded, mushroom shape w/o it being "dumpy".

But you are generally right about cold climates dwarfing them. At Mclean there is a very old I. aquifolium 'Fructo-Luteo' that is only 5-6' tall. Looks reasonable healthy but Mr. Kuhl says the cold has kept it small. I'm hoping I can find a somewhat more sheltered spot for it, but I wouldn't really mind it staying small. He is taking custom cuttings of it for me, as he already did with another interesting holly in his collection. The full Ilex aquifoliums do have a certain shineiness of foliage not even matched by most of their hybrid offspring, and I'd like a couple in the garden.

You can find Ilex purpurea Haask. on page 268 of North American Landscape Trees - where he also says the synonym is I. chinensis Hu 1949 - and not I. chinensis Sims (the implication being that is another plant). And describes the habit as "airy", gives a record for one of the Seattle trees that indicates it was nearly as tall as the tallest known in the wild by 1994 (from a 1941 planting).

Whereas Flora of China equates I. purpurea with I. chinensis Sims.

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200012754

The Ilex purpurea I saw at the US Arboretum (there was a cluster of three tree in their Holly section) were single-trunked, spreading (I suppose somewhat 'airy'), large-leaved and would make gorgeous landscape plants. Not too disimilar to an Ilex pedunculosa). Sort of the shape of a large Cornus florida. They did get a bit of shade, so that may be why they were more open in form.

They are finding more cold-tolerant plants in South Korea that normally would more tender than those found in China, so it wouldn't surprise me if some of these hollies were acquired from there. Ilex integra, Ilex rotunda, Camellia japonica are examples. These are at the US Arboretum. Not sure I. rotunda is still alive after these two past winters!

By the way David, I'm trying to locate 'Proud Mary'. Have you ever run into this one? Would Mr. Kuhl have this?? Guess I need to give him a call.

So he does custom cutting?

Maybe John Fogerty grows it.

Who is John Fogerty and how to reach?

I heard he had a good job in the city but left it. However, I know where he can be found in May.

http://www.johnfogerty.com/tour-dates

Chances are pretty good he'll be offering up 'Proud Mary'.

Oh, I get it. CCR.

Yes if he has something he will be happy to strike a few cuttings for you, but it's too late until next fall I suppose. I've been there in December when they are filling their rooting frames.

Just give him a call, he's friendly.

I'm bumping this thread to further discuss the various Chinese arborescent hollies for a moment.

"Not sure I. rotunda is still alive after these two past winters!"

Dave, could you clarify you've actually seen the labeled "Ilex rotunda" at National Arboretum? The plant explorer doesn't seem to have pictures of them. In looking at web pictures, most from Asian websites because this plant is exceedingly rare in the west, Ilex rotunda seems spectacular...the most impressive of them all for the dense display of berries and large plant size. However I went looking for the one at National Arboretum that is actually in the hollies area, and could not find it. I found a fairly weathered stump near where it was supposed to be, so maybe the first cold winter killed it? OTOH the nearby "Ilex purpurea" (2) seemed fine after the second cold winter, so they are clearly rather hardy. And the label mentions the seed was donated by a Chinese Botanic Garden so presumably the real thing.

(I did not have time to track down the other ones labeled I. rotunda, as one is down by
the Anacostia and not even near the gate, and it would have taken too
long to go down there. It was getting dark and I worried about the
gate being locked while I was outside the arboretum...a frightening scenario for obvious reasons!)

To conclude what we know so far, the bigger "Ilex purpurea" in the National Arboretum Ilex collection have a larger, more stately look than the various Rutgers "Ilex chinensis X OP". More attractive leaves to me, slightly longer and glossier perhaps. Definitely better habit and signs of maybe being a bit hardier. I. rotunda may be even more attractive but as DaveinNova hints, more tender than either species.

For the record, here's my picture from another thread of the better looking I. purpurea at National Arboretum...though not really a good picture. In passing it almost resembles the Quercus myrsinifolia at University of Delaware. It was very bright with berries last week so has no trouble getting pollinated.

http://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/b452b94205dfb83a_8-5134/home-design.jpg

Great, at least I know what to look for. But based on your picture at least, I think I like the look of the Ilex purpurea better. I will see if it's still there the next time I have more time to visit.

You MUST take that walk down to the Anacostia River next time you are there, if time allows. They have planted some very interesting marginal trees in that section. It must be a particularly good microclimate facing southeast, with a large hill to the west for protection. A huge Quercus acuta resides there as does a marvelous Quercus salicina, Cleyera japonica (tree!), Quercus phillyraeoides (spelling?), Ilex kwangtungensis, and some other gems. Also, there are Camellia japonicas coming up from seed everywhere along that hill leading down to the river.

Davidrt28, I will assume you were talking about a hallucinogenic dope delivery. I can't imagine anything else that would explain your post above (good hands...self destruct...etc). (-:

Thanks for bumping the thread. I must have missed it the first time. Very interesting.

"hallucinogenic dope delivery" - LOL

I will say, generally, it's incredibly annoying to me that various institutions that have established rare and/or highly desirable plants almost never seem to offer them at their affiliate/supporter sales...instead offering a bunch of crap that easier to get from a wholesaler. Some do it a little better, like the Scott Arboretum. But for example in many years of perusing their lists, I've never seen Sequoia 'Swarthmore Hardy', and though Andrew Bunting seemingly 'disavowed' this plant in an email to me, my further research (including finding old gardenweb posts in archive.org and contacting people listed therein) proved it was locally named, by a southeastern PA horticulturalist whom Bunting surely knows. (did anyone else spend years thinking he was British because of that name? He isn't. Bunting is about as English sounding as a surname can get, and it would be like Swarthmore to hire a English fellow as their top gardener.)

And btw my research also suggested 'Swarthmore Hardy' is the same cultivar as 'Chapel Hill', having originally come from that tree in NC. The clone of Sequoia in SE PA that is unique is the one at the Barnes, as it predates the 're-discovery' of the Chapel Hill tree. But I don't think anyone has ever propagated it, and with the various clones I have being hardy enough for me I see no reason to go on a clandestine mission there...

Oh I just googled him, he moved on:

http://www.chicagobotanic.org/collections/staff/bunting

btw Dave, thanks for the tip about the river area. I had no idea! I've been just beyond the gate only once, and found it oddly foreboding LOL. So I didn't wander far. (I think the thought of having to walk back up the steep zig-zagged path to the road doesn't help. At least they have some interesting landforms to work with though, and I agree, the southern slope of that hill probably helps the microclimates there.)

I found this page googling Ilex rotunda:

http://blog.daum.net/ks1471/7139968

I wonder what is going on in the last picture. If those are a row of the same species as is often planted in urban areas, did the last couple produce so many berries that the leaves drop from stress or something? What other plant could produce that display? Nothing is coming to mind but maybe I'm forgetting something obvious. I've seen pictures of mature Idesia that are spectacular but on those the berries hang down, of course.

Some interesting stuff there, David. In my treeless years, hollies were plagues with horrible leaves which never, ever stop being vicious (stabbed in hands and knees)...however, my eyes were opened by a visit to a nearby garden - The Old Vicarage in Norfolk which had an amazing collection of hollies. Although I am coming around to them, I will be mainly looking at the smoothed leaved types though. Feel free to enlighten me with suggestions for Z8 sandy alkaline soil.

Well some of the Highclere hollies are either thornless or mature to being thornless, so you can't hold that against them. I feel like these must be common in many English public spaces? So I'm surprised you are asking me about them and not vice versa! Your charming little churchyards, city parks, or even urban roadway verges always seem to be brimming with attractive plants, often BLEs, compared to our weed strewn American equivalents. In fact thinking about the churchyard in Rye has made me think of the Sorbus tree there...and I wonder if perhaps the deciduous plant in berry overdrive (clearly, turned up to 11) in the picture above is some fecund local species of Sorbus.

Of course it helps (or hurts...) that even some of your invasive weeds are gorgeous. I understand why those in the UK want to get rid of Balsam there...but good heavens. I have fond memories of seeing those along the Leith in Edinburgh. They are absolutely beautiful. (the Himalayan I. glandulifera...which probably wouldn't survive our muggy summer nights.)

BTW your point in the pear thread about us having "land to waste" while
western Europe does not, is well taken. It was very amusing for me to
see that in northern Italy or Switzerland, little patches of land in the
space formed by railroad wyes* - no more than an acre or two - were used
for farming. You wouldn't see something like that in the US, ever.
What's even more remarkable in the US is how vast swaths once used for
farming, are no longer even needed, and reverted to un-managed
woodlands. Much of New England, and much closer to me, the entire Elk Neck Peninsula. The yield for standard stuff like corn just couldn't
compete with Midwestern farmers and their richer soils. I don't think
something like that has ever happened in western Europe, and quite to the
contrary, the Dutch turned a lot of a non-arable land into arable land. (Or just seawater - the ultimate non-arable land!)

* - apparently, triangular junctions of railways in British English LOL

David, I have to admit, once I did see some 'shady' characters (people, not plants) who were walking down to the Anacostia on that path, who certainly did not seem interested in plants and just did not fit in with the rest of the treehuggers. You never know what you will encounter. But I for the most part, I have not had a problem in that area. Most visitors do not venture beyond the gate, but the gate IS open during regular hours. And during busy times, it should be fairly safe.