If you have the space, you don't need to prune heavily. The original Kiftsgate Rose at Kiftsgate Court in England was never grown as a climber. It was planted as a shrub rose, but is now an amazing sight.

It was free standing, but some nearby trees got in the way and it now also climbs through them.

I saw it some years ago. It is probably a lot bigger now.

Daisy

http://www.kiftsgate.co.uk/kiftsgate-rose/

It's the Wichurana types(now called R.luciae) with the very lax canes that don't work well grown this way. Then of course why trim climbing HTs into shrubs? A lot of climbers will grow freestanding. Some need room like Daisy said but some will allow you to keep them controlled. Rosefolly has made a lovely shrub out of Eden. Many of my stiffer-caned ramblers are growing freestanding.

A friend has a free standing New Dawn, an incomprehensibly popular climber with enormous nasty thorns, It is over 15 ft wide and 7 ft tall. It is also full of dead wood because only a certified masochist would get in there to prune.

It does not work with all climbers - some of them just stop blooming, and put all of their energy back into growing up to the height they think they should be. If you want a shrub, I would recommend that you purchase a rose which grows as a shrub in your climate. Of course, there are short "climbers" (say, 8-10 ft) which can be grown as shrubs, or I should say shrubs which can be grown as short climbers. Partially it depends on the climate. Where, approximately, do you garden? In warm areas many roses which are "shrubs" can get much bigger than that. On the other hand, where it gets below freezing for months on end in the winter, some roses which get to 12 feet tall here in CA might only make 2-3 feet tall.

Jackie

I think it's actually quite a good idea if you want a particular rose but don't have the space for a climber. I'm growing Cl. Lady Hillingdon that way because I had it planted against a house wall that was too hot for it and had to transplant it into a row of tea roses lining the pathway. Moving the rose set it back so it's an experiment still in the making. If I had the room I'd grow the gorgeous Reve d'Or that way because its wood seems sturdy enough and it's not a thorny beast like New Dawn. Which climber you can grow depends on your climate, of course. I'd choose a rose that blooms often and has a sturdy framework with relatively few thorns.

Luanne who used to post on this forum regularly (long time members will remember her well) grows a lot of roses in a small space. She grows Madame Alfred Carriere as a large shrub. It takes a lot of pruning. Her health is not what it once was and her DH has taken over the garden chores for her, so I don't know what it looks like now. However, she proved to my astonishment that it can be done!

Rosefolly

It really depends upon your climate, I suppose. Cold winters could be a problem for some. But a friend told me that the most spectacular 'Fourth of July' he'd ever seen was grown as a huge fountaining shrub. And I have grown 'Sombreuil, Cl' that way myself. I've seen 'Reve d'Or' grown as a big, big Shrub, too.

I grow several climbers, like Luanne, as large shrubs. I grow cl Cecile Bruner but it took a lot of coaxing. Actually I found MAC to do much better as a large shrub. I had a New Dawn shrub. Actually, I have few roses any longer as my garden of near 500 roses met the fate of Round-Up instead of Miracle-Gro. As a result, I have very few roses but MAC, New Dawn, Cecile, Knockouts and a few others were impervious to the Round-Up my husband used insead of Miracle Gro. American Pillar once was a shrub butl it became a mountain. Clair Matin was difficult to train as a shrub. But it can be done by pruning and persistence, but as Mendocino Rose noted, lax canes versus strict canes will dictate much of that.

Thanks everyone for your input! I live in what's now considered to be zone 6A (prior to the reclassification of the hardiness zones were we considered Z5). Most of the roses that I buy are reported to be hardy to at least Z5, and they are; they just die back to 6" stumps every year and have to start all over again.

The only climbing rose I have experience with is Polka. I've had it for probably 10 years and it comes back year after year. Last year it died back to the ground, but came back and quickly threw 8' canes. It looks like it fared better this year but it's still going to have to be cut down to about 6".

Which is why I asked the question. In my very limited experience, climbing roses don't fare any better than my shrubs or OGR's. If that's the case, them why not try a few and see what happens?

Thanks for enabling!

Kerry

Kerry there is a distinction between crown and cane hardy.

Many climbing roses are "crown" hardy in zone 5-6 but not cane hardy.

If you look through looking for hardy climbing rose threads, there are enough that are reliably cane hardy in zone 5 & 6.

One of the characteristics that can get a large shrub labelled a climber is that it doesn't particularly want to bloom until it gets to a certain size. So whether in your mind it is a shrub or a climber doesn't matter since the rose isn't going to perform where it is cut back either way.

They are also difficult to manage as garden plants if you don't know how big they are going to be from year to year.

Oh, jeez, patricianat. That husbandly mistake is breathtaking.

Yes, Melissa, he meant well. He had strokes and though he could still do chores, and I needed to supervise but that day I was at a meeting. C'est la vie. He was "helping" because he loved me and the roses. We cried together.

Patricianat, you are not the only gardener to have this happen. You may remember our old friend Cindy from Texas. She accidentally did this to her whole garden. She was devastated, and I'm not sure she grows roses any more.

Rosefolly

I am sorry to hear that about Cindy. I asked about her of another rosegrower last spring, who was unable to recall why Cindy quit posting. Like I had done, she too had amassed a small fortune in roses. I try not to think about it but it took a few years to even be able to talk about it. I do have lovey memories and pictures from those years, however, when they were so beautiful and that is good enough for me until spring when everybody has blooms but me.

Cindy was a dear soul. I do miss her on this forum. She called the three of us the California Girls, which flattered me immensely, having grown up listening to the Beach Boys back in Pennsylvania!

Cindy took great pride in her gorgeous roses and she was humiliated at her mistake, being much too harsh on herself in my opinion. Anyone could do the same, and indeed many have done exactly that. Luanne, Carol Markell and I sent her a startup order from Ralph Moore's nursery to get her going again, but I think she was simply too discouraged to pick up where she had lost. The Round Up episode was followed quickly by Hurricane Rita which completely devastated her property, then some family health issues brought her an even greater loss. I think it was simply too much for her, all coming in such quick succession. It makes me sad to think about it.

Cindy was a shining light. I hope she still is, whatever she is doing these days.

I certainly understand that. It is difficult to talk about and, yes, it is embarrassing although it should not be. How sweet of some very sweet people to send rose starts. How I miss Cindy, Luanne and Carol. I received an email from Carol just a few days before her demise. She told me she was going hiking or climbing (I should have saved the note) and then I receive a telephone call from a rose friend saying she has passed. Not long thereafter was Carolina's bad news and eventual death. It was my pleasure to meet the "California girls" in South Carolina. What a joy and what a fun evening was had by me and I hope by all.

How sad all of that is. Pat, you were at Ashdown when David Stone was there? I was too, I think I remember meeting you, and I met Carol FM. She became a dear FB friend of mine and I was crushed when I heard of her death. It's so sad when people who have so much invested in their yard lose it. I went through something like this this year, but it's made me just want to start over in a big way.

I grow my Zephie as a combination climber and shrub. I do tie some canes up on my deck posts, but most are just in a fountain shape. I keep saying I'm going to tie more canes up, but I never get around to it. I like the way it fountains, but I do have to keep it somewhat pruned.

My Aloha seems to work best as a tall shrub. It really blooms well, doesn't put out the long canes climbers normally do - it is planted by a post in front of my horse barn and has done well there for many years. Really like this one.......I do remember Cindy, Luanne and Carol.....and quite a few posts from rose lovers no longer here - Karl in particular.....

Judith

I apologize for hijacking this thread (though I did contribute to the original question!), but I just had to share a photo of the David Stone event at Ashdown. I often remember it. In this picture you will find some RP regulars of that time.

L to R, Carol Markell, Rosefolly, Luanne, Trish, Carol FM, and Jackie, all frequent RP posters, some of us already old friends that day, and some of us just meeting for the first time, but not the last time, at that event.

People go through garden setbacks, and fortunately they often get through them and resume gardening. It depends on means, health, and just how devastating the loss was. I'm feeling vulnerable these days myself, as DH, still active, is really getting on in years, and I though younger am creaky and not particularly endowed with energy or muscle. We have a demanding garden still in development, and will do as much as we can for as long as we can. I really can't imagine an alternative to growing things.

It's good to hear about these folks and what happened to them. I've never been as closely connected to other members as many long time rose forum participants, partly because I was already in Italy when I discovered GardenWeb. Grieving for people you lose is a privilege.

I had a different kind of setback when I moved to Italy: leaving the garden I had worked on for eight years and finding myself confronted with the gigantic task of starting another one here at the farm. I can remember my sense of total bafflement as I studied the possibilities, and it took me some years before I stopped missing my old garden and began to enjoy the new one. Once my garden here really got going all was well.

These Roundup disasters are a potent argument against the use of poisons in the garden.

Melissa

rosefolly, don't aplologize! I was at that event, and while I think I was a bit shy to talk to many, I had a great time.

I recall the pretty redhead from Birmingham, an attorney, married to the actor. She rescued Pugs. She was there with her handsome hubby. I recall Jean Harrison and Tennessee Ann, Jodie, Jackie, Paula, Carla, Carol M and Carolina Carol, Trish, the pretty girl from Georgia who once had the nursery and sold her rose stocks to Paul and/or Pat (I believe her name was Lisa, but not the Lisa from Mississippi with the Roadside country nursery). I recall George being there and the accident with the red wine on Carolina's white brocade dining chairs. Wow, there was a lot of wine consumed that Friday night along with Luanne's lasagna. It was all fun. That may have been what caused Carol's neighbors to dislike roses. Ha. Pat from Ownroot roses was there for the morning lecture. I developed a headache and left for afternoon. We went downtown to dinner and ran into Jackie and her husband (Ohio).

Pretty much any of the multiflora ramblers (Goldfinch, Aglaia, Ghislaine de Feligonde) are happy to be grown as free standing shrubs. Quite a few large climbers with stiff canes will manage too - Jasmina, Aloha, Meg, Nahema. and also several noisettes such as Aimee Vibert, Gloire de Dijon and Albertine can manage without support. I have also grown bourbons (Blairii No 2, Coupe de Hebe and Madame Pierre Oger without support. True, the luciae/wichurana roses such as Alberic Barbier and Leontine Gervaise will flop about a bit...but can manage perfectly well as ground covering roses and are brilliant at scrambling over banks, tree stumps and such. Finally, some of the species such as soulieana, helenae, moschata will. grow upright and will arch over. I grow mine on a wire frame between posts, lurching and lolling on old vegetable supports or just doing their own thing....but there is an enormous caveat. If you are keen on tidy controlled gardens, this is probably not highly recommended...but for a wilder, less formal, edge of woodland look, many of these large climbers can flail about in abandon.

I should also state that it is idleness (in my case) which has prompted me into growing these roses without much in the way of help, and, as an extra bonus, I have also been quite encouraged that pruning, far from being essential, is actually a bit of a waste of time since excessive chopping just seems to encourage more vigorous growth than leaving well alone for several years then having a major haircut once a decade (the older wood also seems to help with support).

Again though, this is a style not appropriate for small gardens or neat borders.

True-blue - I've obviously noticed that sometimes canes make it through the winter and other times they don't, and that when they don't the roses come back from the base again. TBH, I'd never even seem a 'climbing' rose until I planted Polka and I thought that was just how they worked in my climate. Thanks for pointing out the difference to me!

Campanula - I like the 'reckless abandon' approach you take with gardening! I need to show a little more restraint with the spot I need to plant but I may copy your approach in another area of my yard.

Everyone else - Thanks for your input as well. I learn so much from these posts. Even the rabbit trails Rosefolly.

Kerry

apologies for hijacking but memories of some great rosarians are a part of the experience and I treasured getting to know each and every one of them and what they have contributed in a more positive way to my experience and those who are no longer with us are as important or more so than those here with us because their legacies have brought us to the place where we are now.

..I don't think you need to apologise really....I certainly understand that... and looking at the photo above of those happy ladies, I found it terribly sad that, if I am understanding it correctly, that one or two are no longer with us... it doesn't look so long ago either... hard to imagine.... but you must have some happy memories I hope, to take forward...

Patrica, your story reminds me of O'Henry's bitter sweet short stories. Sort of makes one focus on what matters most...

Kerry it all boils down to what you want to do, if you want to experiment, then you can grow many different climbers as shrubs; I've seen noisettes listed in zone 4 gardens on HMF.

Mostly in cold zones, you grow shrub roses as climbers :-)

Roses which will be surely cane hardy are the Canadian explorer roses, John Davis, Quadra, John Cabot, the thornless Isabella Skinner and many of the Albas. Look at the this monster Alba semi-plena growing in zone 3 on this thread.

You rosegrowers are so kind to allow us to reflect on the past. Yes, there are 2 who are no longer with us and one who is no longer able to be with us in the picture above.