Picea abies, Abies alba, Pinus sylvestris all native; also some Pinus nigra, Pseudotsuga menziesii, etc., cultivated.

Resin

Non-native species in this mix? These were very large trees, all-in the 1940's already? FWIW, I easily recognize the growth form of Picea abies. Did not see that. The scenery I witnessed must have indeed been Abies alba, primarily.

A most luxuriant forest. The fighting with the Germans got so bad, shell-shocked US soldiers would sit under the trees, vacantly gazing off into the distance, seemingly oblivious to the rockets and shells bursting all around. At one point, a US regiment got trapped by the Nazis. After repeated failures to rescue them, the commander sent in a regiment of Japanese-American troops. These guys-at a terrible price-did succeed in rescuing their comrades. Some 400 were lost in the rescue of what by then amounted to only 200 living soldiers. All set against this background of what appeared to be a truly splendid forest, much of which was being pulverized, along with the people in it.

So what's there today?

+oM

Without knowing the location of the incident, I can't say. If you can find out, look on google earth and see. But my guess would be replanted forests.

Within a lot of European silviculture, there is a tendency to grow Abies where the previous crop was Picea, and vice-versa; it happens naturally too, with each species growing better after the other. Exotic conifers have also been grown for over 100 years in some areas, though to a lesser extent in mainland Europe than in Britain.

Resin

That's why I wondered. These were very large trees.

+oM

These were very large trees

http://www.conifers.org/pi/Abies_alba.php

The Hurtgen is north and slightly east of Leige and Bastogne if I recall a few geek / war games I used to play. That Hurtgen campaign is why some of the front in the Ardennes was weakly held for the Battle of the Bulge.

Thanks Tor. Not a gamer but have always had a keen interest in "the big one". I honestly had to look away a few times-due both to the human carnage and the utterly wanton destruction of nature.

On a more cheerful note, is there any successful culture of Abies alba in N. America-anyone?

+oM

Weeping and upright forms are produced in Oregon and put on the market. I sometimes see a few of these at outlets here.

There's a huge, healthy Abies alba at Longwood and several at the Arnold Arboretum, so they can grow in the northeast. Apparently, unlike Larix decidua, they were never used in North American forestry.

My little ones are doing fine so far, but I'd wait a few more years before declaring them phytophthora resistant here. OTOH, all small own-root Abies lasiocarpa and Abies grandis I bought are now dead, whether they were in ground or in pots. So clearly it's better off in a humid climate than they are.

I'm trying to graft some Abies grandis now...my second attempt at conifer grafting. I really want to have this species in my garden for the foliage, which has to be the best smelling conifer of all.

According to Jacobson, North American Landscape Trees (1996, Ten Speed, Berkeley) "in North America, A. alba has grown to upwards of 100' tall in some places, the stoutest trunks more than 10'0" around". He also says "overall, it is inferior in insect-resistance, strength and endurance to A. nordmanniana, so it has been comparatively little planted in recent years, but its cultivars offer special opportunities".

http://nurseryguide.com/Find_Plants/Search?q=abies%20alba

Long-established Caucasian firs near me got buggy and died awhile back so if A. alba is even more prone...
(Caucasian fir is repeatedly mentioned as being exceptionally successful in cultivation).

the best smelling conifer of all

That's quite a crown to bestow, for starters what about Korean arborvitae for instance?

"These were very large trees"

Bear in mind that Douglas-fir can reach 50m tall in 50-60 years; both are already taller in Europe than any Abies alba or Picea abies known. The tallest in Britain is 67.0m, with the tallest in France not far behind at 66.4m, and in Germany 65.8m. For comparison, the tallest Picea abies known is 62.2m, and the tallest Abies alba 54m.

Resin

I've tried growing A.alba seedlings & dwarf conifers here that were grafted mostly on Canaan, and they would always perish. Finally, a grafted alba 'Variegata' that lost any variegation is doing well on Canaan roots. I think further north of me A.alba would do fine on its' own roots, but I'm of the belief it's too hot here for too long. That's 1/2 intuition and 1/2 a friend with about 3-4 weeks a shorter growing season stating that grafted dwarf Abies alba grow fine north of here.

Abies procera will die during the summer for me and takes 3-4 years to do so. He grows Abies procera no-problem. If he loses Abies procera it's during winter. Coldness will kill his plants.

He lives 100 miles north in nearly a direct line, and his zone 5a is cold.The coldest days of 2013-2014 here were -18F/-28C twice and he saw -31F/-35C one of those days and -28/-33C the other day. The difference like that is consistent.

Dax

Thanks Dax and all. Aside from A. balsamea, there is no native Abies here. I did plant a few end-of-season sale A. nordmanniana, but their subsequent struggles could not be pinned down to any one reason, their having been planted a bit too late into fall-late November if I recall correctly. Maybe I should try a few more of those some day.

This is all just what I call "fun stuff" the great work of reforesting 80-90% of the site having already been concluded. But I do need/want a few firs in the mix. To that end, will be installing a few Canaans, but those are really just balsamea-like. I'd also like some larger-growing fir if it be possible. We shall see. It seems then that perhaps there's no compelling reason to reach for alba over nordmanniana then?

+oM

"It seems then that perhaps there's no compelling reason to reach for alba over nordmanniana then?"

Abies alba is likely to be somewhat more cold-hardy than A. nordmanniana, particularly if you get a seed origin from the northeast of its range in southern Poland. That could make a significant difference in Wisconsin.

"I'd also like some larger-growing fir if it be possible"

Also worth considering Abies holophylla. Hardy to zone 4 at least, and a large tree (to 40-50m) in the wild.

Resin

Thanks Resin. That's good information. I think I'll talk to people at Itasca Greenhouse Nursery. They're about as good as anybody when it comes to provenance issues, etc.

+oM

Yeah, I'm a bit enamored w/my little A holophylla. Certainly its root zone was a solid block of ice for weeks this winter (which can hurt many small evergreens), but it looks fresh now & buds even greening. But Forestfarm was the only source I could find.

Treehaven's Order Form 2015. I've bought a lot of tree's from Don @ Treehaven.

Thanks guys. Since posting that this morning, I took a look at USDA's plants database page for Abies alba. If you've seen these, you know they show a range map of the US, whether native species or not. Interestingly, this tree was shown to be present in one state only-North Carolina. Now I know they're not trying to show every place that has a few trees of the species in question planted. But that map does indicate I'm a long way off from the generally accepted US location for that introduced species. Sure, it is in western NC, in the mountains. But in no way is that area anywhere near as cold as is the location of my planting. Think I'll just stick with the Canaan and whatnot for now.

+oM

On the route of the Bernina Express, I seem to recall seeing what I thought were Abies albas from St. Moritz - probably zn 5b but rather cold in any case at over 6000' in the Alps, almost all the way to Tirano, just over the border in Italy and close to zone 8, with a Trachycarpus palm or two in the town. So, like Resin said, probably just a matter of making sure they came from the right provenance.

Talk about hardiness zones, the location in question briefly joined the ranks of Z5-for that brief period where they abandoned the a and b designations,-but is now securely-and properly, in my opinion-back in Z4 where it belongs. Dawn redwoods don't do well there, Green Giants get off to a rousing start, only to frizzle fry later, when a cold winter happens. I've had a mild and unserious case of zone denial, even putting in a few "Zone 5" Chamaecyparis lawsoniana just a few years ago. Yes of course, those are dead!

But none of that is really the issue. I just know how spring always kicks me in the butt. The list of many things is teetering as I write-all the things that pretty much must happen as soon as it warms up. So between the haskap bushes I've already ordered-and therefor will need to deal with, and the want on the part of family members to have the ability to cut Christmas trees from our land (And my desire to leave some fir trees grow on to maturity!), think I'm going to scale back for now.

+oM

The recent winter Olympics couple yrs back in Russia had alot of very big conifers at the ski-venues. Always wondered what they were -- looked like Norway spruces or similar, and some types of fir.

As far as that goes, I sure wish some vendor would offer stock of Picea obovata-but of a land-race bearing the glaucous foliage! They'd have a customer in me-a more or less Norway spruce-type tree but in blue-green! Would look great up against all the deep moss-green of the thousands of regular species Norway spruces I've planted there. So far, only the fancy-smancy grafted stuff, but I've got to think there exist areas where that's the predominant look, that coloration phase.

+oM

Time to put two different blue obovata cultivars side by side and grow their offspring.

Dax

There ya go buddy! Keep me posted. ;^)

+oM

"The recent winter Olympics couple yrs back in Russia had alot of very
big conifers at the ski-venues. Always wondered what they were"

In the western Caucasus above Sochi, Abies nordmanniana and Picea orientalis.

Resin

I might even add a gold one for radicalism! ;-)

Dax