Y'know...there really are quality and performance issues here too, few people who come to this kind of forum care about status appliances. We used to talk about engineering and temperature range. The data are too old to be useful today, but Gaggenau had the most accurate ovens with the least temperature variation. Miele was not too far behind. Wolf (the old ones) was a distance farther off but in the same class, and the dual fans did a lot to prevent the reflections of convection heat that can create the cookie issue. Mid-range ovens, while good enough, had the same temperature swings that ovens have had for decades. The big result is with a lesser oven there's more adaptation time for learning your new oven's quirks, and less reliability that day in, day out, the same dish will come out the same way given the same settings and time, without a lot of checking.

For me, between the performance/reliability, total control with easy knobs, side opening door and non-flaking interior Gaggenau was a given. There is good Gaggenau service near me, though I've never had to use them.

i'm sure one of the big problems with Wolf customer service nowadays is precisely that there are lawsuits. Their attorneys have probably decreed that they mustn't acknowledge the problem. This is awful, but is also the reality of the American way. I have a Wolf cooktop which had an installation issue, created by the electrician, before the wiring got to the appliance, which Wolf CS probably diagnosed on my call, but they sent out a warranty repairman who took the whole thing apart to check, rather than risking a potentially dangerous fault. It's that kind of customer service they've long been known for. Unfortunately, being a company facing litigation, they are predictably behaving like a company facing litigation.

Knowing this, it seems like Miele or Gaggenau would be a better choice for a wall oven. Or a different class such as BlueStar, or Electrolux (though the latter don't get as much love here as they used to). I'm concerned about GE/Monogram since the sale to a Chinese company which is already selling their own products (ovens) under the GE name. We have little review on the current state, and it's sure to be in flux. While some people have fairly recently reported satisfaction with both GE and Monogram ovens, they have had a reputation for intolerable unevenness and large temperature swings. KitchenAid used to have a pretty good rep for the price, but recently there has been a lot of displeasure.

We have had a few members who reported great displeasure with Miele and Gaggenau, but that's inevitable. Generally, users seem happy, and those do seem the best choices, given the price,

plllog: I always appreciate your comments, as your take on things is quite different from my own and you generally approach things from a technical viewpoint (lthough I know you are artistic from the gorgeous tilework in your kitchen).

Temperature swing is a very useful measure of quality. I'm not aware of what research/data you referred to as "too old to be useful today": was this discussed in the 2004-2007 era, when Gardenweb was smokin' with lots of participation?

Ovens are WAY behind what they could readily be technologically; I posted a link about a year ago to a really interesting computer science journal article about what ovens COULD easily be if manufacturers wanted to bother with real and fundamental improvements of appliances.

Anyway, I do hope the most basic testing that Consumer Reports can do well is:

1) reliability based on membership feedback on specific models and brands;

2) measuring evenness of baking and distribution of heat within the oven.

CR always ranks mainstream wall ovens as the most reliable AND most even cooking, although their rankings of "pro style" appliances has expanded and improved in the last several years. Not sure if these tests and results are wholly accurate or reflect some bit of bias in approach.

I think your take on litigation certainly plays a role in Wolf's response (although a regional sales manager I spoke with did discuss the flaking in the L-series ovens with me in what seemed like an "owning up to the problem in a limited degree" way).

One thing you may have overlooked: given your major metro area location, Miele and Gaggenau are good choices. Now that I've left metro life behind and am in the Midwest and am 45 minutes outside a (much smaller, Midwest-sized) metro area, mainstream brands and MW-based Wolf become stronger choices. (Believe it or not, I talked with several appliance dealers who told me not to go with Samsung or LG bc I would have trouble getting them serviced!)

I believe one of CR's failings is their testing methodology. Different ovens (and cooktops, ranges, etc. for that matter) all work somewhat differently, but CR only has one test for each category based on, most likely, a couple of the largest selling products using a fixed testing methodology. When ovens work differently then the ones the tests were designed around, they don't perform well. They also don't appear to do any adjustment after installation--just unbox and start testing. Pro style ovens usually need some calibration to get the best results. The problem is not with the pro-style ovens, but with the testing method used. This applies to other products as well--at least in every category I profess to know something about, I almost always disagree with CR--so CR almost always picks the lowest common denominator product as the best. And because they don't disclose their testing methods, their tests and rating are often suspect. The owner comments are usually more accurate than the rating CR gives.

KitchengirlKitchengirl are you talking about this IEEE article with Nathan Myhrvold?

https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/gadgets/nathan-myhrvolds-recipe-for-a-better-oven

It is interesting but I think they are over thinking some of this stuff.

Yes, wekick, that's the one... thank you for looking it up. You, plllog and Chanop (active in Miele combi-steam owner's thread) have great memories for detail! (Unlike me).

I didn't mean that all of those features are practical for mainstream appliances; I meant that the technology to improve temp control, evenness in cooking, etc. is available and can be improved significantly with existing technology, and with reasonable expense.

Yes, wekick, my DH is a prof in CS...

Jerry, I agree that methodology of testing must be at the heart of things. I have a funny story that illuminates that: when I bought my first car, a Toyota Tercel, before my senior year of college, it was rated a Best Buy by CR and came in a point behind the Volkswagen Golf. Price was a good bit different ($500-$1K in 1981). I also looked under the hood of each, and the "German engineering" looked EXTREMELY complex (actually scared me), whereas I could I.D. everything under the Tercel's hood (yes, I essentially flunked the auto mechanics night class my dad suggested I take at the Y, but not for lack of trying). I drove that car cross-country back to college with my boyfriend, and we argued the entire 3K miles about which car was better.

I rather blindly believed CR and its non-bias! But now, I certainly recognize that the Golf was better built, probably handled better, etc. and the testing does not address all aspects of quality fairly.

Loved the Miele oven design, but the German engineering scared me off again!

Kitchengirl, thank-you for the kind words. I would stretch that time period to about 2009, but yes, back then. There were some tests published, and some other ones done by a member with appropriate expertise. You're right, of course, about location and service dificulties. I wouldn't want to have to pay for days and travel to get a tech to a location without service, which is why I axknowledged that there is good Gaggenau service within an hour of me. If there's Bosch service, they can probably handle Gaggenau, too.

I stepped into this, however, because of the whole performance vs. status question. Wolf ovens used to have a solid reputation among users for tiptop performance, even though not quite as much precision as the top two, but that's useless if its blowing glass shards into the food. Right now I have a big down on most ovens. They seem to be engineered for energy efficiency first (potentially a good, but so much so that it detracts from performance is not), cost (naturally) second, and actual cooking way down the list. There are mid-range oven of different eras with the exact same sensors and 50 degree temperature spread, which did a competant job of cooking. Now they pile on scads of cheap gizmos of limited utility but don't make an even and reliable oven. I do understand that there are people who want Wolf just for the badge, but most people here are actually intending to cook. ;)

I am very happy with my Bluestar wall oven. It's not so complex that it tries to cook for you, and the broiler is the bee's knees. The not-bending-over makes it actually fun to cook with.

How can one concentrate on reading the post when there are these beautiful loaves to look at -YUM :) Did you need to rotate your pans?

No rotation required. I do use the convection fan to make sure the temperature is even throughout the oven.

kitchengirl, The biggest difference in those two cars is if you'd kept your Tercel it would still be running. The Golf would be long dead...

golden_gardens: any dead VW's in your past??

plllog: "Now they pile on scads of cheap gizmos of limited utility but don't make an even and reliable oven.

I do understand that there are people who want Wolf just for the badge, but most people here are actually intending to cook. ;)"

I agree with the first sentence whole-heartedly, plllog. This sure applies to fridges these days, too.

Re. the second: I opted for a "status" appliance line this time, and am clear on that. I cook largely from scratch 5 nights a week (not necessarily complex, but a real meal), and bake ~once/week. But I think I might be as satisfied with Consumer Reports' #1 Whirlpool double oven or Bosch Benchmark's double oven, yet I went with a Wolf M + a Wolf combi-steam. I won't know until my kitchen (& new house) is finally operational.

I am definitely not as technical as you and wekick, and that is why even though cooking is a big part of my life, I'm not sure I would measure differences or improvements as you would. I.e., if Consumer Reports says that the Whirlpool double oven was the most even of all their tested models and ranked it excellent for even browning, I don't know that I would find your Gaggenau or the Wolf M noticeably better.

Looks great, Jerry! Is your wall oven gas?

No, mine is electric.

Kitchengirl, several duds across the extended family. VWs and Audis. But they certainly are fun to drive!

g_g: Bc I drive hatchbacks (dog + gardening), my DH (not the college boyfriend) has tried to get me to buy a Golf, and last time, the Golf GTI, for the last 25 years!

Thanks, Jerry. Will check out the broiler setup on your Bluestar.

I won't repeat the very good critiques of CR that have gone before, other than to say you couldn't choose any food more affected by oven differences than cookies. That is, different ovens want different times, temps, racks and pans, so using the same dough and same pans with the same settings is guaranteed to give you different results. Convection reflection is most pronounced with low profile baked goods, so a sure way to discredit a good oven is to bake cookies on the wrong rack position. For all I know, the Whirlpool might have been most even because of what for other tasks might be ineffectual convection.

Before my Gaggenaus, I had the old gas oven that came with the house. It could not hold any particular temperature and three different oven thermometers, when put into three different spots, showed a big variation in the three concurrent temperatures. I still baked. It was just a lot harder, and cakes came out dry if not watched carefully.

If an oven gets hot you can cook. The quality difference determines how hard you have to fight the oven to get the desired result. Top quality ovens (without faults) just make it a lot easier. As I said about Gaggenau back when I bought it, the same appetizer pastries, year after year, tray after tray, take exactly the same amount of time. It's a slightly different time on mine than my mother's for that one, but tray after tray, year after year... There's no 15 minutes at 425, followed by 30 minutes at 350 type of thing. That's what you do with a hard to heat, uneven, unreliable oven. Changing to a single setting/time might take a little trial and error, but 375 is a good starting guess.

i understand that you, yourself, opted for status on your choice, but you didn't come to Gardenweb to choose a status oven. This is the wrong forum to ask what will most impress the neighbors. And since you do cook, I don't think you'd choose a bad oven just for status. The Wolf is supposed to be a good oven, if it can keep its enamel intact.

WOLF M series transitional wall oven (no knobs) is difficult to change temperatures. I can not adjust temps without accidentally touching the wrong temp button or touching the "off" button which is just below the temp on the screen. Does anyone else have this problem?

For those of you who have had their Wolf M ovens for 2+ years now, i’m Interested in updates! Considering the M Pro or Transitional single oven with the microwave/convection unit on top. Really want to know what you have to say about either of those appliances. Thanks.

I'm interested, too!

Hi all,

We're looking into a Wolf convection oven and combination-steam oven. From doing research on the Wolf website and elsewhere online, I cannot find the differences between the Wolf E-Series and the M-Series ovens. Are there huge differences between the two? They look quite similar in style and features to me...

Maybe this will help. http://www.subzero-wolf.com/assistance/answers/m-series-and-e-series-ovencomparison

I found that in addition to doing internet research that it helps to go into a showroom that carries Wolf so that you can touch and feel the product and have a salesperson talk you through it. And if you have multiple stores in your area that carry it, I'd go to those, too, as I found I picked up new info from each source.

Thanks for the link and the advice. Appreciate it!

I tried to find out why the weight difference between our (dead) Whirlpool Double oven to the weight of the Wolf M series (approx. Whirl 300 lbs. vice the Wolf's 440 lbs.) but I was unable to find that info.

Anyone know? Bricks? Solid gold? Lol!

I couldn't find the weight on the Sub-Zero site, and the dealer sites were inconsistent. They show 476 for shipping weight and 466 for the oven weight, but it varies depending upon the site and some sites show only the shipping weight. Only ten pounds for packing materials doesn't appear to me to be correct. Usually ovens are shipped strapped to a pallet with additional wood and cardboard protection (at least that's how my Bluestar electric wall oven arrived). Unless you can find some official Sub-Zero documentation, I'd take any weight shown at a dealers with a grain of salt.

If it does turn out that there is that much difference, then it's likely to be in the sheet metal thickness and the frame materials.

Hmmm, I've never come across a comment asking about weight of an appliance but I, too, agree with Jerry that it probably has to do with the thickness of the metal both interior and exterior and maybe some of the working components are metal over plastic? Even the racks could be of heavier weight.

Wolf's customer service maybe able to give you a factual answer http://www.subzero-wolf.com/assistance/customer-care

Thanks Jerry and Ted,

I was just curious how the Wolf was better built, and the weight was the only physical factor that differed.

I was wondering aloud, if anyone knew for a fact the why, I searched the net and came up empty.

We ordered a M series Pro, and now we're waiting for it to be delivered, possibly next week or so.

Cheers!

I am still waiting for Wolf to make the 27 inch wall oven they said they would a few years ago. Come on engineers and make this oven and sell a ton on them in the USA.

In response to my above query, the Wolf double wall oven is installed, and I've never had an oven (ovens?) that retained the heat like this one; more than an hour after turning off the oven there's still warmth in the oven cavity. I think this may be due to the thickness of the metal Wolf used to build these heavy ovens.

It is also very quiet, the fan sound is not bothersome at all, I hardly notice it; I'm only mentioning it due to reviews stating so.

My wife is very impressed with the lighting within the oven, and the slide in racks are very nice to operate.

It is quite a step up from the Whirlpool Gold double ovens (which lasted us 16 years), time will tell how long this new set will do.

Hi Brent, Thanks for sharing your first impressions. Please let us know what you find out as you use the ovens more.

@Brent B, @kitchengirl, @tedbixby - I realize this is a very old thread, but I wondered if any of you have any feedback on the performance of your Wolf M series ovens if you purchased them. If you didn't buy them, what did you decide on? I'm looking at the Wolf M series double wall ovens but am particularly interested in the chipping of the interior. Has it happened to any of you? Although I don't clean my ovens as much as I should, I would like to use that feature without having flying shards in my oven. Thanks for any feedback.

Hi @Design Girl, I've had the M oven for 3 years now. The chipping is still happening, but only in Clean mode. It's horrible and unsafe because it's hard to cleanup and dangerous if I miss any chips and they go into food. So I am afraid to use the clean mode. Wolf has been non existent in their customer service. They literally did nothing to help and I have been to busy to pursue resolving this problem with them. Another problem I have with the M version is that it's WAY too loud. The start up of heatng is loud, but when you are done cooking /baking and the oven is turned off, the cooking mode or the cooking fan is horrendously louder. You can hear it from an adjacent room. I highly recommend to refrain from buying this. Plus I'm having a ton of issues with the sub sero fridge so I will never again go with Wold/Sub Zero brand. They are only trouble.

I've had the M series (2 single ovens) for almost 2 years and I love them. I had known about the potential for chipping but for me the functionality and performance of the ovens outweighs the potential for chipping. I have never used the self-cleaning feature - it's not great for the electronics of the oven (any brand) anyways. Instead, I use Easy-Off Fume-Free which was recommended by Customer Service at Wolf-Sub Zero. I don't find it loud at all. At the same time I bought the ovens, I also bought a SZ fridge and freezer which are awesome so my experience sounds like the total opposite of AU. All of my encounters with Customer Service have been excellent - they are friendly and answer the phone quickly - much better than Miele and Electrolux.

I think it is possible that A U has the early version M oven with a fan that was replaced with a quieter unit. Somewhere here, I wrote a lengthy post about my retailer who, after a good bit of nudging from me, agreed to replace my early version M (still in their warehouse after purchase), with the 2nd generation with a quieter fan.

Re. my M single oven: we have been in our new home for 14 months and have used it perhaps 10 times, mostly for baking with half sheet pans and a couple of times for roasting. I also have a Wolf combi-steam oven which I use as my go-to, and given a 2-person household, settling in, and the pandemic (no entertaining), the M oven has not seen a lot of use. I do like it, find it intuitive to use the transitional model's interface (unlike jdeanillinois, above, I don't find changing the temperature problematic), and I haven't had any chipping of my interior (but have not run the cleaning cycle). This was a significant concern for me before purchase. I may go the route of dotsandstripes with Easy-Off or steam, soap and a gentle scrubber. I hate being afraid to run the self clean, but find it a bit creepy (heat and odor) when I've run it on previous ovens, and don't want to deal with avoidable problems (premature decline of the oven).

I also have a 48" Sub Zero fridge/freezer and a Wolf 36" induction cooktop. I chose Wolf bc I am in the Upper MW and not in a large city. I checked out how hard it would be to get Miele service and was not confident. My cooktop blew 3 burners in its first couple of weeks and Wolf customer service was excellent (it was still a hassle to deal with replacement, but I certainly was glad to have an excellent representative to work with who was on top of all details). I have been quite happy with my fridge/freezer and have had no issues to date.

Oddly, the primary issue I have had is with the use and care manuals: each appliance's manual had something that was not clearly explained and I needed to call to clarify, but that is a small issue.

We're still enjoying our double Wolf ovens; they're great when we cook prime rib and yorkshires at the same time for a crowd.

As of yet we haven't used the self-clean, ya bloody right we're scared to!

So far, light cleaning is all that is needed.

We do get some greasy areas on the side of the door edges just behind the glass fronts; must be some leakage (maybe when we use convection) and it blows out.

We really like the lighting and the easy slide out racks, although sometimes the pans will slide on these racks, if not being careful when sliding them out.

Be safe out there!

Hi: I’m the person who asked for your comments 2 years ago and I so appreciate your feedback. Turns out the Wolf oven is in our 2nd home in Miami (we’re in Toronto, Canada) and was Installed 1 week before we returned to Toronto bc of covid. We haven’t used it since bc we haven’t returned to Miami!

Well, I'm pulling the trigger in the spring. Who knows when they'll be in but I'll report back once I clean them.

Hi all,

I participated in a Roth Living / Wolf ovens seminar a couple of days ago, taught by the Denver showroom's chef, Dan. It was for owners, not a sales tool. Roth is the MW distributor for Wolf/Sub Zero, but I'm not sure what other markets they distribute to.

Their chefs are a useful resource! Dan went over all of the modes of the ovens and also discussed all of the cleaning parameters: this is all stuff that you don't find in your manual. And the chef is the go-to for any practical or tech-oriented questions you might have on your appliance.

Dan said in the seminar that 5 auto cleanings a year is what they recommend as the max. There is a fan that cools the electronic components. You must remove all racks and the rack holding tracks on the sides of the ovens during cleaning, and he provided info on 3 cleaners for glass, touchup oven cleaning, and cleaning the racks.

If you have questions, look into who your distributor is, and whether they have a chef at their showroom. As I have mentioned before, I made appointments at Miele and a Wolf showroom with sales personnel. After I decided to go with Wolf, I got on the Roth email list, and attended a pre-ownership demo with the Kansas City chef, who cooked numerous items for our lunch, and showed all of the modes and features. He, too, has been very helpful with my combi-steam oven, assisting with location questions and later, helping me through the first time I used the temp. probe and could not understand the manual's instructions for setting the oven AND probe temp. The point is that the chef REALLY knows the appliances from a daily user and professional capacity, and part of their job is to work with owners to answer questions. They willingly provide their email address and you can also call the showroom # and ask for the chef.

Thanks for the info. Would you be able to share the names of the 3 cleaners?

I would appreciate the name of the cleaners as well and any additional info you have on the cleaning. I originally had the L's and had the chipping and they were replaced with the M's. I waited till things shook out with the M's and the noise issues when initially released. The only time the ovens are loud (Maybe I should say louder) is if you are running the oven and a very high temp or maybe with the broiling. I have the updated units. I have had these for a little over 2 years now. I have NEVER run the self clean feature. Not sure if I ever did though on the L's either. Maybe once on the L's. So far so good. Cleaning is a pain especially when cooking something greasy like a turkey etc. So.... would love to know what cleaners work and what KITCHENGIRL had learned. Especially best and easiest way to clean the racks and rack holders. as well as the rear back curved part of the oven. I had used the razor blade with soapy water on the bottom and sides but that can't be used on the back. But, cleaning the ovens has always been a pain and thus gets ignored. So any info would be great.

Barkeepers Friend and a damp sponge for quick cleanups of cavity before they become baked on (pie overflow, grease, etc.)

Carbon Off for baked on spills: leave on 2 hours or overnight and scrub with BLUE Scotch Brite (not green, which is more abrasive). This can also be used on other porcelain enamel and stainless surfaces, but do NOT use a green Scotch Brite, which will scratch.

CARBONA 2 in 1 Oven Rack and Grill to clean oven racks and side racking supports: this comes with a bag to put the racks in which is too small for the M-series, so it is necessary to use a trash bag instead of the bag that comes with the cleaner. Clean all racks in 1 bag.

To clean the interior glass of burned food and grease: warm temp. or cooler, not hot.

- Put ~2 tablespoons of Barkeepers Friend in the middle of the glass door surface, make a paste and rub with blue Scotch Brite pad, avoiding the very edge, so no cleaning gunk gets into the door.

- Use a razor blade or 2" wide metal scraper and scrape crosswise (door in front of you, right to left or left to right).

- Clean with a wet towel.

- If desired, spray with a NON-ammonia glass cleaner and wipe clean.

I haven't looked yet, but check out Roth Living on YouTube for info videos.

HTH!

Thanks. Two things.

My Barkeepers friend is also somewhat abrasive. Did they say power or liquid? I use the powder for cleaning pots and liquid does nt clean as well so maybe less abrasive.

As far as the racks, I had read somewhere else about doing something similar with ammonia and the garbage bags. Not an issue with the sides and bottom rack but the ones with the glides I believe have grease on the ball bearing glides. Does the Carbona also remove this needed grease? It's why I was hesitant on cleaning these racks.

You know what happens to the interior glass if the glass door if it is too warm and you put cool water on it to clean it? It shatters! Been there done it!

Thank you for the information. For the racks, Fume-Free Easy-off has worked well for me.

Toddimt: think it was the powder, as he referenced making a paste. If you email me, I will send you his contact info, and you can directly reach him.

Dan did say that cleaning the racks improved the ball bearing glides, actually.

dotsandstripes: have you used the Fume-free Easy Off to clean your oven, as well? What did you think?

After the seminar that said 5X/year, I was going to do the auto clean, but am still a bit hesitant ;-}

I have now had the M series double oven for 5 years. (I posted on this thread before if you scroll up. FIRST ISSUE: I ran a self clean 2 times so far. 1st time, the blue enamel cracked a lot with a lot of debree. I have called Wolf and they basically ignored my problem. I didn't even get a call back. 2nd time I ran the self clean was 6 months ago. Same issue but lesser cracking. once the self clean was finished, I ran a wipe and collected debree again. SECOND ISSUE: the fan noise. goodness gracious is it loud. first when it starts heating up, and then once you are done cooking, when it cools off. you can hear it on another room. so would I ever buy it again? 💯 NOT.

AU: I believe Wolf offered to do repairs for the noisy fan issue.

We put in a M series 30 inch oven one year ago. We love it so much and use it almost daily. I thought, I am not baking today so I better clean the racks. So I got my scrubby sponge and bar keepers. They were really dirty with grease etc so I put some elbow muscle into cleaning. I cleaned so hard I rubbed some of the finish off. Thus now my racks are rusty. I contacted Wolf and they are helping, but I am now replacing all my racks and side rails. Be aware not to use bar keeper and muscle on the racks. Wolf recommends for the racks the trash bag with cleaners. I do need to clean the blue enamel and thinking of using the self clean mode.

Thanks for the heads' up, Stuart!

kitchengirl, unfortunately the company had not been helpful in getting this repaired and I simply have up. it is not my forever home and I'm moving soon (surely not into a house with the wild M series oven, lol).
Stuart Liang, you will most probably have blue enamel chip after the self clean mode, so make sure to run a wipe and clean afterwords, as its not safe for that stuff flying around into food. it's almost like glass

So happy to read this!!!!! Thank you for your honest and detailed comments.i called Wolf to ask for the specs on the broiler.every other company lists them, but not Wolf. She said it was proprietary. . Now I know why they don’t list the specs. I asked how many passes was the broiler, and she wouldn’t say. Every other oven lists them. Bosch is 12, Cafe is 10. So this is a deal breaker for me.