GOOD!!!

That is great news!

With them being endangered, that is a good thing!

GOOD!!!!!!!

I had just gotten back from Africa and seeing the beautiful elephants there when we decided to go watch the "Elephant Walk". That is where the train is unloaded and the elephants and other animals walk to the arena where the circus will be performed. It seemed so cruel to see them in captivity. We saw an ostrich or emu go down and the tender just sat down beside him until he was ready to get up. Even if they are well cared for they should not have to live on trains, in tents and to perform on command. Before Africa I did not realize what the elephants were missing.

While in Africa I saw several elephant in a mud wallow playing like kids in a mud puddle. The adults were so careful with the babies. When they got out, one baby could not get out. An adult went back in and pushed him up and out.

I've never understood the opposition Ringling Bros has long faced over its elephants. I still remember how thrilled I was as a kid to see their performances, and to go see their walk through city streets from the rail depot to their performance sites.

Don't get too teary-eyed over elephants in Africa, emma, that's where the biggest problem is. If the many corrupt African governments did a better job protecting the animals from the incessant poachers, the elephant populations there would be thriving.

Snidely, you need to do some reading up on the cruelty behind your childhood circus thrills.

Just one (chosen at random) of many, many articles and videos documenting the abuse

This is wonderful news!! I think I read it will be in 2018? Why not NOW? The circus environment is un-natural, the doing of tricks just seems bizarre to me. I pity circus elephants and think that generally speaking humans have behaved horribly towards elephants. Why such large, intelligent animals would obey a small human with a pointed stick is hard to understand.

The government in Africa doesn't care for it's citizens, so why should they care about their elephants. While there we saw a mansion on hill and the guide said that is where our taxes go. He said it was a politician's home and he would be in big trouble if they knew what he just said. The clothes that goodwill sends there go to business people who "sell" the clothes on the street. The people can hardly feed themselves, much less buy the clothes. A lot of their clothes come from travelers like me. We take our older clothes, wear them then leave them behind for the locals. The missionary's are not welcome in the area I visited, the Africans have their own christian religion. Our guide took a christian name when he was confirmed at the age of 13.

alisande, that link doesn't do much for me.

Try this one. PETA is an evil and duplicitous organization. If PETA is against something, I'll start out being for it. And vice versa.

Also, Google the name "Rodney Coronado" to see the kind of people it spends its money supporting. Its support of attacks on researchers has quieted down, but at one time they were acting as if a domestic terrorist organization in inflicting physical damage on medical research facilities and personnel. There was a bombing incident in my area some years ago, concerning a manager of a biomedical company. Inexcusable and criminal. I guess they care more about elephants than people?

Some info about PETA

My link had nothing to do with PETA. And I have nothing further to do with this dialogue with you, Snidely.

OK with me. The issue has everything to do with Peta, they've long been behind the campaign of protests against Ringling. I understand there were others too. They were the largest and most vocal about it, that's why I brought it up.

I'm sure they see this development as "their" victory.

And even if it's the right thing to do, let's be against it because PETA is "for" it, right?! And let's be sure our little boys continue to be thrilled by the sight of wild animals which have been tamed for our amusement.

We had horses on our farm ... which were well treated, as were our cattle: if we abused them in Dad's sight, we were in trouble ... but we weren't inclined to, as they had become almost like pets.

They walked with less enthusiasm to the field in the morning for ploughing, cultivating, cutting hay or grain or hauling them to the barn than they did to the barn for feed at lunch or the end of the day and for relaxation in the pasture field, in mild weather.

By the way ... when one watches a dog whose genetic disposition is tuned to loving to run and play ... and realizes that it's cooped up in a house or apt. in the city for almost all of the hours of a day ... and walks at the end of a 6' leash occasionally ... and gets to run, leash-free, only occasionally ...

... we have an expression, don't we, that something is "a dog's life".

Somewhat less than fulfilling, isn't it?

ole joyful

socks, you're right, and I have a personal experience to prove it. The evil institutions of the Ringling Circus, and also the many zoos I took my kids to (which also have many opponents), were responsible for my daughter becoming a veterinarian. That's by her description, her exposure to animals developed her interests and feelings that motivated her school and career choices. It's an experience I wish upon no other families. (intentionally sarcastic)

If you're worried about a few dozen elephants, let's talk about animal cruelty that causes the senseless deaths of millions of sweet animals every year in the US. What practice is that? Allowing cats to go outside. The average life expectancy of an outdoor cat (as per various Humane Societies) is something like 5-6 years, that of an indoor cat can be 15 or more. Those thinking "well my Casper is outside and he's 12 years old already," think of how many died at a young age to make the average what it is.

That's very good news about the elephants. The big cat acts have always deeply disturbed me, as well.

There are simply some entertainment venues where the animals are often cruelly treated.

Snidely, it's wonderful that your daughter, at such a young age, had an emotional response to the circus animals. I'll bet that her adult intellectual response is different today regarding the reality of the lives of circus animals.

I was taken to the circus as a child, myself. I was haunted by the tigers pacing endlessly in tiny cages, and the elephants.....chained on two legs, unable to do anything but sway back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

rhizo, I asked, and the response was "Eh, I really have no reaction, there are many more important animal welfare issues to be concerned with. But they will be happier and less stressed living in a reserve."

I live in an area that's blessed to have a fairly new large arena. It hosts all kinds of music and varied and sundry other acts. They started hosting the Ringling Bros Circus right away. The Circus animals are brought in by train. The train tracks are about 1/2 to 1 mile away from the arena. About 10 or 12 yrs ago my DH and I took my little niece to watch the animals march on city streets to the arena from the train. Not only were there elephants, but horses, ponies and camels. There were also performers in costume. It was a real event. I remember that with more fondness and clarity than any elephant act I've ever seen.

Zoos and circuses have always offended me. While I'm not like Ghandi, refusing to swat a mosquito, sentient creatures are too like ourselves to use them only to amuse us. Raising animals in order to eat is as far as I want to go. Maybe I'm too imprinted by "Dumbo" or reactive to the recent "Water for Elephants".

As for PETA, a former neighbor's home required round the clock guards for a year after he was targeted as an executive of a company PETA found offensive. (The rule of 'two wrongs not making a right', IMO.)

I respect your view about animals chisue, but keep in mind that work animals are not pets. Many are around only because of the work they do. They are most certainly entitled to respect and appropriate and humane treatment. Sadly not all receive that.

But whether you're talking about animals raised for food, or chickens that lay eggs, or cows that produce milk, or even horses that run races, their dignity is in the jobs they do. You confuse yourself when you mix your feelings from a cartoon or your friendly doggy with what should be done with a horse that pulls a carriage, for example. Or an animal in a circus act. There should be strictly enforced rules to insure working animals (including on farms) receive treatment and conditions they deserve, but beyond that I stop.

In your Peta example, I see one wrong (Peta's unlawful and immoral terrorist action), not two.

Anyone know why they're waiting a few years to retire the elephants to sanctuaries? Why not do it now, or soon?

I wish they would stop with the horse carriage rides too. It's a terrible life for the horse. They are pulling heavy loads hours a day in dangerous traffic, breathing in all the fumes so that tourists can ride a carriage around the city. They don't get to run around in a pasture like horses should be doing. It's really sad, and hopefully it's the next thing to be banned. Even if the owners treat them humanely, it still doesn't mean the horse has a good life.

Suzie, my guess is it's a logistics issue to get the homes all set up, figure out transportation, things like that.

But whether you're talking about animals raised for food, or chickens that lay eggs, or cows that produce milk, or even horses that run races, their dignity is in the jobs they do.

Their dignity is in the jobs they do??

To take just one of your bizarre examples, horses are stripped of their dignity when they are confined to a stall 23 hours a day and then whipped to exceed their natural level of speed so that gamblers can bet on them. And this doesn't even take into account the hundreds of race horses who die on the track every year--in America alone.

The "jobs" you speak of were forced upon animals by people. You're saying the animals' only value is in their ability to provide entertainment and financial profits for humans.

You seem to like cats. What if someone captured some cats, "trained" them by whatever means necessary to do things contrary to their nature, and then put them on display and charged a fee for people to see them? Oh, wait--this happens all the time, only the cats are very large.

Perhaps someone should capture you, Snidely, take you away from your family, beat you into submission, and force you to do tricks for the ticket-buying public. You'd see how much dignity you'd have then.

Alisande, you go, girl!

And then there are rodeos, the ultimate mistreatment of animals!

Alisande, I would pay and pay and pay to see that.

alisande, there's no need to worry about a few dozen circus animals, there are common practices that concern tens of millions of animals in the US today and everyday. Let's talk about what every individual can act on. Do you...

- speak up when you encounter a friend who has an obese dog or cat (something >50% of all those in the US) and let them know that their overfeeding will shorten their pet's life AND cause less happiness and mobility during their shortened life because of the medical problems caused by obesity?

- insistently encourage friends to protect their cats by keeping them indoors? Only this can insure they live a normal term life because they're protected from predators and other mortal risks faced outside.

Do you avoid eating....

-eggs, since 90% of US egg-layers live in inhumane cages that were banned in Europe 15 years ago? Or maybe like me, you restrict your buying of poultry products to exclusively free-range items? I'm happy about California's new law (effective 1/1) that bans the sale of eggs (from any state) from chickens kept in the too-small cages the egg producers prefer.

-dairy products, since conditions and practices for the treatment of dairy cows can be abominable. Details don't matter you're familiar with them.

Did I leave anything out?

I don't understand your reasoning, Snidely. It's like saying there's no need to worry about the child down the street who is starving because there are millions of starving children in Africa. I sense you think focusing on issues that affect relatively few animals is a waste of time compared to issues that affect many, but why can't we focus on both? I think anything that makes the lives of animals a little better should be applauded.

I think most people can agree that the lives of most animals aren't very good. The percentage of domesticated animals that have homes is pretty low. The entire food industry is disgraceful with very few exceptions.

I do agree with your points above though. I go a step further with eggs and only buy the ones that come from chickens who are entirely pasture-raised. They cost $7/dozen but I think it's worth it. Dairy products are grass-fed from carefully selected family farms. I wish people would stop eating factory farmed products.

There's still much to be improved in terms of animal welfare but this is a good thing.

I sensed someone whose indignation is self-selective and inconsistent, missing a bigger picture. I was trying to convey that point.

Good grief. Getting back to the original post- unchaining elephants can only be a good thing. If I was an elephant, I would rather be taking my chances in Africa, running around free and wallowing in mud pits with my fellow elephants, than being chained up all the time and having to stand on little benches and performing for the masses. Even living in a zoo would be preferable to being in a circus. I've never been to a circus because I don't want to see animals being treated like that.

The circus is closing in May!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/ct-ringling-bros-circus-shutting-down-20170114-story.html

I am glad too. It made me so sad. I can't go to zoos either.

Thanks, Socks. Besides the animal welfare issues, one thing I find interesting is how entertainment has evolved over the years. The article says today's children enjoy TV, movies, video games, and the internet, not so much a circus show. It quotes the circus owner as saying, "Try getting a 3- or 4-year-old to sit still for 12 minutes."

Yesterday I realized I remember every word to "Secret Love," a big hit for Doris Day in the 1950's. A lot of people bought that record. Even kids loved it. I was 10 years old when it came out, and I still remember every word. Would kids love it today? Would adults? I don't think so. The same is true of so many simple, lyrical hits of that time. And of course the simpler TV shows and movies we enjoyed. Today's entertainment has to be stimulating in ways that would probably have made us uncomfortable back then--loud, action-packed, pulsing rhythms, fast movement--and often make me uncomfortable today.

So the big circus is closing. I sure hope the small traveling roadside circuses with their terrible reputations for cruelty will follow suit. I'm happy for the Ringling animals, but I feel sorry for the employees. What will they do instead?

I saw a video of a tiger cub being shaken, to make it afraid and docile, so it can provide photo ops for tourists. Hope the BIG cats are next to be out of the show.

I think the job market is scary for anyone. Learn as many skills as possible and you might need them ALL! (I'm doing my own tile work. I see there's a market for that and very few people to fill it, yet you don't need a college degree. An idea for young people living in their parents basement....eh?)

I hope it's a "step up" for the animals. I went to the circus recently. They had a lot of tigers, as I recall it was a dozen in the show.

This good news - even as a kid in the 1950s circuses creeped me out, not only the clowns but the way the animals were treated and how sad and beaten down they looked. Although at the time of course we did not have the language to describe it or words or concepts like "animal cruelty."

Hopefully all circuses will be updated and reinvented - already there are some focusing on the human acts w fire eaters and contortionists and such. Not sure what to make of the housecat act - have not seen that.

I never cared for the circus either, and have a hard time with zoos. I'll never forget a small community zoo we were taken to in India; it was just horrible to see those animals in tiny cages.

I agree with what you're saying about children and adults needing more and more stimulus to be entertained. Now when I watch older movies, my thoughts are that I still enjoy them but know most people would not. Last night we watched 'Nine to Five' on pbs. I remember what a popular movie it was and I thought it very entertaining and involved when it first came out. Though i still thought it was fun yesterday, I see how dated it is (those attitudes toward women!--exaggerated, but still....) and think younger people would just think it silly. Most of the movies made today are too much for me. (I also easily feel dizzy when watching anything with the look of speed.)

Ha, whoever resurrected this thread from the graveyard of old discussions gave readers a rerun on this conversation.

My views remain as previously stated above, I think it's a shame. Better oversight of Ringling's animal handling and welfare practices would have allowed it continue to educate and captivate children and adults as it has for over 100 years.

More than anything else, I really dislike the practice that has arisen where a well intentioned but not necessarily well informed minority of people can get their will over the wishes of others by the volume of their voices.

PETA is the Eddie Haskell of nonprofits, appearing to be one way when underneath there are other things going on. Few people spend enough time to do much beyond having their heart strings pulled. It's important to see past its less than fully forthcoming positions and underlying intentions. Here's a NY TImes article about PETA's shelter that doesn't do much adoption but lots of pet euthanasia:

PITA's kill shelter

Good deflection Elmer - how is this relevant to the conversation? Surely you dont mean to suggest that all of us who are concerned about treatment of animals are in league with or members of Peta.

Perhaps people are more persuaded by the evidence of their own two eyes and ears and not what some extremist group is telling them. After 50 years of learning about animals and seeing them onTV - cheetahs running 90 mph over the savannah, tigers stalking and hunting in the jungle.... suddenly those big cats pacing back and forth in small cages just dont look so appealing anymore.

Not a deflection at all - PETA was very involved with this issue. Read the link in the very first post.

Also, PETA has provided money and other support over the years to supporters of the extremist Animal Liberation Front (which has done bombings, arson, and other attacks). Be informed. Many of the activities and positions of PETA and its "friends" aren't the kind of things fair minded people should be comfortable with, much less support.

"Causes" can morph into pretty nasty things -- says the Old Cause Lady.

It isn't just outdoor cats who live shorter lives - think of the birds that they kill!

o j

I resurrected the thread. Should I have started a new one, Elmer?

Heck no, do anything you wish. There's no forum sheriff, other than the website for enforcing Terms of Use. If there were a sheriff, it wouldn't be me.

Sometimes the resurrection of old threads can be annoying, people answering a question that's moldy and oldy. This one wasn't like that to me at all and I chuckled at some of the earlier comments, my own included.

Ringling Bros. Circus is closing it's doors in May, 2017

Ringling Bros. Circus closing after 146 years.

I'm glad they are closing. I took my kids to the circus when they were younger, not Ringlng Bros. but a smaller one. I felt so bad for the animals I never went again.

Alisande asks "I'm happy for the Ringling animals, but I feel sorry for the employees. What will they do instead?"

I hear the clowns are going to work for Trump

Sorry, I couldn't resist ;>)

animals should not be used for our entertainment - period! Don't we have enough to entertain us?????????????

It is not going to be very long before there are no more circuses or zoos. It will be unethical and probably illegal. Will we need safari type wagons to see animals in the USA ?