Plllog thank you for that post. In all honesty, I was dying for a regular convection oven and a convection steam oven. But then I saw the interior of the steam oven and thought it was wayyy to small because currently I have a double wall oven, and when I cook a lot for entertaining, I use both ovens to reheat or keep foods warm.

If you don't mind, I would like to go through a typical menu and current cooking process so you can help me decipher what would work best for me. I cook large meals for Friday nights when we have company every single week. A typical menu - a meat roast, which i would pan sear and then cook to correct temp in oven, roasted veggies like broccoli and white potatoes. I usually roast them in separate pans. I make a 1/2 sheet pan worth, brown rice made in the rice cooker, a vegetarian protein dish (usually beans on the cooktop), and there might also be some hors d'oeuvres bought from a local mom-n-pop shop to reheat.

Then, a dessert- either cake or cookies or pie in the oven.

Typically, I cook the meat last in the convection oven so it is done at dinnertime. So, one oven is taken by the meat. I would have finished the veggies right before I start the meat, so that would be in the other oven to keep heated, along with the rice & vegetarian dish. Sometimes I will refrigerate the finished food and reheat it before the mealtime.

My weekdays meals are simpler- pasta, vegetarian tacos, baked potato with vegetarian chili, homemade pizza, soup and grilled cheese.

Now, with all that info, what ovens would suit me best?

Is this Friday Night Dinner (i.e., Shabbat), or is it dinner on Friday night? If the former, do you want to use the ovens for warming for a three day chag? Any other Shabbat restrictions? How much company?

The combi-steam holds an awful lot. It's just front to back and horizontal. It's not so good for things that need to be fiddled with while they're cooking, because you have to take out the pans, but because of the steam environment, there are a lot of things that otherwise might need fiddling that don't. I got extra pans for the combi-steam too. you can fit many styles of half sheet and quarter sheet pans on the racks, but the size is actually 2/3 and 1/3 sheet. I got one extra each of the perforated and solid 2/3 pans (total of two of each), and two 1/3. There may be some changes to the current model, but in mine, while there are four rack positions, three is pretty full. I wouldn't want to put anything that wasn't flat on the top level. Because it's convection only, you don't have to worry much about the height as relates to a cooking element, unless you're using the new "grill" (broiler). My surmise is that the grill is so that people can buy it as their only oven can use it for everything. Generally, however, you can put things in on three levels and they cook fine. The only caveat during steam use is condensation, and dripping.

If you just have a regular and combi-steam Gaggenau (I assume other brands are the same, but won't vouch for them), cooktop and rice cooker:

• Rice cooker with brown rice--can you set the time on it? Will it hold 'till you serve or does it need a warming drawer?
• Beans on stove should hold at heat well on the stove. Turkish towels can help.
• Any roast short of a gigantabird will work on the center rack of the main oven, with room on a lower rack for roasting veg or heating the hors d'oeurve. Roasts are forgiving of a little opening and closing of the door. You could even par cook the potatoes and blanch the broccoli ahead of time and swap them for the hors d'oeurve, then swap them back.

But you could also use the combi-steam on convection mode for the hors d'oeurve, and/or one or both of the veg. Or the meat.

There should be plenty of oven space available for dessert, though you'd have to balance the timing, whether you want to make it first, then put in the veg, for instance, or put dessert in as you're taking the meat out.

For me, the biggest issue is Passover. Only a couple dozen people, but so many courses and all 100% scratch. I make ahead what I can, but a standard version of that is:

Matzah balls on the induction boiling for hours and hours until light and lovely. Soup on the larger gas burner. Tsimmis on the induction moved to the warming drawer to meld a couple hours before dinner.

Brisket cooked in the big oven the day before, chilled, skimmed, sliced and moved to a smaller roaster (post shrink) to finish cooking (hours) in the combi on convection.

Gigantabird turkey in the goosepot in the big oven, with foiled potatoes in the corners around it for the difficult diets.

Previously (mostly) cooked great big veggie kugel in the Advantium on oven mode to get warm through (takes same amount of time as the first cook, but it's already set up and the mess has long been cleaned up). If there's stuffing (which I've generally given up on) it goes on the turntable in the Advantium under the kugel.

Asparagus waiting in perforated pans go in while the turkey is resting. The brisket either comes out completely or goes in the big oven, depending on where in the reading we are, and the asparagus gets steamed during plating. About 6 minutes for matchsticks.

There are other little things that go on the stove or in an oven, and end up in the warming drawer, but I try to do as much as possible ahead. I could keep the tsimmis on the stove if it weren't in the way. I always finish desserts the day before.

Your question besides talking it through was "Now, with all that info, what ovens would suit me best?"

The answer is that you could probably make it with a combi-steam and a large oven. Maybe a little easier with a convection microwave as well, or a decent sized toaster oven, like for heating the hors d'oeurve, but you could make it all happen anyway if what you're making isn't too temperature sensitive and doesn't require three or more different settings. Similarly, a warming drawer would make it easier to make an hold one thing then heat another. In my outline of a Seder meal above there are three different temperatures, but I could make it work with fewer. A lot of it is down to ingenuity and knowing what will fit where at which temperature.

If what you really want is the combi-steam, and it fits your budget, I can't see sacrificing it for a second regular big oven.

Nice to meet another member of the tribe on here plllog. Yes, I do cook every shabbat & also for the holiday meals from scratch. I also make challah in bulk once a month & freeze it. Passover lately I have been spending at my parents or in-laws, so I haven't cooked for that for a long time, but I am sure a day will come where I am home for it. My rice cooker is a cheapo model that cooks til the rice is done and then switches to warm, so I put it on about an hour before sundown and switch it off before lighting.

I love roasted veggies, and I could see that if I had a convection steam oven, they would taste even better. You know when you roast the broccoli just a tad too much in the oven and wish you could rewind so that slightly-bitter-hint-of-burnt taste isn't there? I assume a convection steam would take care of that.

I feel like if I had a steam oven it would be my weekday go-to. But I worry about two things- 1) Thinking too much outside the box and getting an unconventional oven, so when people come over or cook with me, they will be like, "what do I do to use this thing?" 2) Steam oven not big enough- not a substitute for a 2nd oven.

It might be more useful if I got a regular double oven, and then next to it a 24" combi steam oven. I feel like for shabbat meals, a warming drawer will be too small. I may as well use one of the larger ovens with a keep warm feature. What do you think? I kind of need to balance the financial budget along with the "how many appliances can you possibly fit before you have no room for cabinets" budget.

plllog here is my proposed layout that I have been working on. I could put the steam oven in the cabinet next to the double ovens.

Is that a cabinet next to the ovens? I thought it was the fridge. It really should be the fridge. I thought the one between the doors was a cabinet, but that means that's the fridge. I'd put the ovens there and the fridge in the middle of the action unless you do a *lot* of stove to oven stuff.

It sounds like you're shomeret Shabbat (I'm not), which puts another whole wrinkle on the appliances. There have been a lot of MOTs on GW. Do you use a blech? The whole Shabbat warming thing gives me a headache. I'd actually want a warming drawer for that, perhaps supplemented by an oven, especially during the Winter. You can find where 140 is on your dial and just set the warming drawer and not worry about anything. If you get one that doesn't have electronic controls and maybe remove the light, you're all set, rather than having to do fancy settings re Sabbath mode. I think you could definitely do Friday night dinner with one or one and a half ovens, but have my doubts if you want to keep things warm through sudah shlishit as well if you'd have enough room, let alone the whole three day chag thing. Warming drawers are fairly inexpensive.

I'm very confused about which new Gaggenau ovens actually are or will be available, but I read in the manual for one (or maybe it's an intermediate model between mine and the one only in Europe?) that has a whole three day chag setting. Have you seen that? It sounds like you have to stand on your head and flap your elbows to program it, but when you do, it figures out when to transition the heating and automatically does it for you. It's really impressive, if a little bizarre.

I wouldn't worry too much about who's cooking with you. The new screens are different than what I have, but on mine the settings are really simple and the display drawings are quite intelligible. For straight convection cooking, you just turn the steam dial to zero and the temperature dial to the one you want. So long as you remember to tell them where you want the steam setting, it'll be easy for your helpers. You'd need to explain the big oven too, you know. And that applies to most of the current ovens. Gaggenau's controls are dead simple compared to many.

OTOH, you might need the oven space of double ovens.

BTW, did you know that crock pots were invented as cholent cookers? Also, you can use a warming drawer for that. Plus, check with your authority, but I think a warming drawer can be opened and closed on Shabbat, but an oven can't, right?

The steam oven is most convenient if it's plumbed. That means you're basically putting in a sink, and you need cupboard space for the trap and shut-off valve. Since I have slab and had to have it trenched, I had them put in a capped hot water line as well because I could just see many years later wanting to put a sink on the other side of the wall and having no hot water. :) Of course now they have those point of use little heaters...

In your position, I'd want it all. Double ovens, combi-steam and warming drawer, so I'm not a good one for saving you money and space. BTW, my warming drawer holds a LOT, and has this U shaped rack that fits over some pots so you can put more on top. So I don't know how to advise you, other than I'd plan for a three day chag with house guests from abroad whom you want to do things up nicely for, all meals to be eaten at home, with guests coming to see your company for all meals. Figure out where to put all of that, and the hot water too, and work your way back to see what you need.

Okay, I'm going to try again to really answer your questions, not just have a panic attack about Shabbat. ;) I live in a very moderate climate, and love the idea of we accept things the way they are more than we have to put on a show because it's Shabbat (my interpretation of what the sages said about bringing out your finest). I see nothing wrong with simple cold meals on Saturday. :)

So, yes, I think the combi- might not be big enough for holding warms for you, or for a whole bunch of days in a row, but I do think that a big oven and a combi- would be adequate for your regular cooking and baking, and Friday night dinner. Especially if they're Gaggenau. My challah comes out gorgeous. Borekes are the same on my mother's old Gaggenau as on my five year old one. One of the reasons I wanted one is that tray after tray, year after year, they've always been the same 11 minutes and I love the consistency, but I didn't know that that same thing would hold for a different unit.

I roast veg in the big oven usually. You'll find it's so well sealed that it's a lot damper inside than electric ovens you might otherwise be used to. A plume of steam will come out when I open the door. That's not to say that it can't be done in the combi-steam. Do use a perf pan, though. There is some learning time, but I would never not have one if I had a choice. :)

plllog I did read the new gag user manual, and they all seem to have the shabbat & yom tov mode. You can set 3 phases on the yom tov mode- phase 1 would keep foods warm the first night, phase 2 can be set to go up to a cooking temperature, and phase 3 can be back to keeping warm. With regards to the warming drawer, for us, anyway, if the oven is on shabbat mode it is acceptable to open/close if i leave it on a warm temperature, not a cooking temp. Which warming drawer to you have? I saw that the kitchenaid warming drawer specifically functions as a slow cooker, but I assume they all can, kitchenaid is the only one advertising it as such.

I do not use a blech because they never heat food right, IMO. The bluestar precision I am planning on technically comes with a grill/griddle which can act as a blech if I ever have company that doesn't agree with reheating in an oven or a warming drawer.

I KNOW, I KNOW about the fridge/oven switch in my plan. Everyone on GW says to switch it. I did actually make another plan with it switched. BUT a few things in my gut tell me to leave it this way- 1) I don't want my kids in my face by the fridge on the days I am cooking a lot. 2) My fridge in my current kitchen resides exactly like this and I truly don't mind it. 3) My sister agrees with me on keeping the fridge there, and she practically lives in my house so she knows how my kitchen functions.

I think I would more likely do double oven plus steam, the tiny microwave behind an appliance garage or doors along with the toaster. possibly a warming drawer under the steam oven.

Plllog what do you cook in the steam oven that comes out better than in a reg oven?

I Love my Kitchenaid warming drawer. It is 30" and directly below the Thermador 6 burner pro range. Sometimes I will take a pan from the rangetop and immediately place it in the warming drawer.

One of the bonus points for the Kitchenaid warming drawer is that it is also a slow cooker and I use that function frequently.

I use the warming drawer at least 5 days / week.

It is definitely one of my very favourite items in the new kitchen.

ooooh great idea @pamela233 warming drawer under cooktop!

Yes, any warming drawer can be used as a slow cooker. You just need to know what temperature you want to cook at and for how long for it to be safe, and a $10 oven thermometer. I have a five year old Monogram, which was chosen because of its temperature range, ability to take a cabinet panel and price. I also liked that it's a simple one with no jobs for engineers program overlay of electronics. It has an on/off switch, and a Lo/Med/Hi dial. I think the temperature range is something like 85-210. I don't need it to do reheating (which is what the ones that go to 250 do), and do need it to do plate warming (well under 100 degrees). I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but if you look at explanations of how the old crockpots worked, they tell you the temperatures. Use those with the old style recipes that expected a minimum of eight hours for a cook. (I have a real issue with the new kind of crockpots which don't actually cook slowly--though you can do that in the warming drawer too, at their higher temperatures.)

So, since you don't use a blech, you need more warming oven space, but since you do open/close the oven while warming, and do reheat from a primary source (i.e., in a warming oven rather than on top of the water urn), it's not so dire. The Gaggenau Shabbat/Yom Tov setting you described is what I was talking about. I think it's *brilliant*. Over engineered in a *useful* way. If I held the heating vs. cooking issue, I'd want one just for that.

There are a couple of good locations for a warming drawer. Top drawer, or first under a shallow utensil drawer, either under or next to the cooktop is a GW favorite. This is especially useful if you make pancakes for the whole family to eat together, you can flip right onto the stack in the drawer. If you have a varied, multipart dinner with people eating in shifts (little kids first, sports kids later, grown-ups when all have come home), the height is perfect for dishing up right out of the drawer, rather than having to take each vessel out one at a time. There are a few useful locations. Besides near the cooktop, there's near the table. The one is better for accumulating parts of the meal, the other is better for serving and refilling plates. The least liked place is the bottom of the oven stack. Bottom is inconvenient because of the bending. The oven stack is bad because it's usually in the least used part/most out of the way of the kitchen.

It's telling that Thermador used to make a combo appliance with the microwave on top, then the warming drawer and the oven on the bottom. It was compact enough that the oven was still reasonably high off the floor. But they thought the warmer shouldn't be on the bottom either! It only is on ranges because it's an extra. If you don't need a pan drawer there on the bottom, might as well make it a warmer. My own warming drawer is just below counter level, in a stack with the speed oven. It's about 7' from the cooktop area, but on a straight line to the dining room. It works great there. Still convenient to the stove, but significantly easier to get to from the table. My theory is that another reason warming drawers are often put under ovens is that there's only room for a drawer under a double oven anyway, and builders don't realize that if your pot is in an oven and you want to keep it warm, you just leave it in the warm oven. :)

There is nothing that you can make in a steam oven that inherently comes out better than by some other method of cooking. It's just a lot easier. You can add steam to a regular oven with a ramekin of water, a pan of water, etc. Plus, as I said, the seals on new electric ovens are so good nowadays that they don't go dry the way the older ones did. I haven't ever steamed vegetables in a conventional oven, but I imagine if you put a pan full of water in, brought it to 215 degrees, then put a perf pan or rack of vegetables over it for six minutes, they'd be perfectly blanched, too. The *plumbed* steam oven allows you to set the oven to pre-heat and work up steam, then just pop your pan of veg in and out. Dead easy.

My can't be bothered chicken is also dead easy. For boneless/skinless breasts or tenders, I brush them with "suntan lotion", i.e., some kind of sauce or dressing, sprinkle on dried herbs and seasoning, and pop them in and out. For a whole chicken, I remove the excess fat, if any, and the spine (or get the butcher to do it--I save them in the freezer for stock), and make a "rack" out of a large sliced onion with a package of cleaned baby carrots (for the lazy version--brushing whole ones works fine, but they go limp on me in the produce drawer and I hate giving them shelf space when I can just buy a package ready to go), plus whatever veg I feel like adding. Lay the chicken over the top and do the suntan and sprinkle routine and cook for an hour and a half on 360/60% steam. Crisp skin, tender perfect chicken. If one didn't go too wild with the veg (height), it would be possible to do two at a time. The liquid that comes from the chicken and veg does accumulate in the pan, as well as a good bit of condensation if everything starts cold, so the carrots come out as if in stew--which is a big hit here. :) I've even done fat slices of zucchini, and while they're way overcooked, they're delicious.

Hard eggs come out great, according to the direction, but I have an egg steamer, which I think is easier to use. I grew up with one too. It's the only single use appliance I use regularly.

Duh. I just thought of something. You probably should have a double oven just so you don't need to kasher the big one every time you want to bake. You could definitely make all your roasts in the combi-, unless you were having super crowds. The combi- has all sorts of crannies and crevices. It can probably be kashered, but it would be with great rigamarole. It doesn't have pyrolitic cleaning. It's all stainless steel, and has a mesh cover over the fan, etc. I'm pretty sure it couldn't be kashered for Pesach at all, if you hold very strictly.

Re fridge, since you have experience with it the way it is, and you and your sister like it where it is, who are we to argue?

plllog I am enamored by all your info but I still don't know what kind of oven situation I want! It is not at all your fault- you are giving me loads of helpful information.

So, here are my oven requests, in order of importance:

1) Ovens have true convection and should cook evenly (no burning the bread in the back left corner like my current oven)

2) Should have low temp so I can dehydrate & proof & keep warm

3) I really want french doors or side opening

4) Reliable (this should be first, but then.....)

I am VERY picky about how I cook my meat, even though I am practically a vegan (I eat dairy on occasion). But being a dietitian, I am very precise about cooking my (albeit grassfed) roasts so that they are still juicy & tender, perfectly pink interior. Maybe I don't need the steam oven??? I don't know! I feel like I want one.... but.... is it worth it for me? I am thinking I want it to reheat foods in the steam oven rather than in the microwave or oven, which dries food out.

I have 4 kids and a husband, all of whom get home at different times during the week STARVING. So, I feed each person as they step inside the house. Hence, the need for some way to keep food warm. Would I do this in the steam oven? or would it be better to do this in the warming drawer? Or maybe my 2nd oven will keep food warm???

I just want to decide!!! #firstworldproblems

You may not be able to dehydrate in any modern oven, though it might work with the door open. They do retain a lot of moisture. You can "less hydrate" on a dehydrate setting.

You don't need a steam oven to cook your meat, just an accurate one. If you like a crusty outside and you're not getting it in your new oven, add a ramekin of ice cubes to the rack.

You can reheat foods in a regular oven. You can also add a ramekin of water if you want a moister environment. I have a bunch of double ramekins that were free, but any small dish or pan will do, or a large pan or pie plate if you have room. Or you can buy a ramekin for $10.

I would use a warming drawer for feeding the staggered hungry, but you can do this in any oven that has a low enough setting. "Warming" on some ovens is 200 degrees, which will overcook the food (and which is why that's too warm for Shabbat). Warming temperature depends on the composition and density of the food. Pancakes are fine on low (120-140). Beef stew in a heavy pot should be more in the 160-180 degree range to stay good and hot, though it will continue to cook slowly (good for stragglers, not for Shabbat). I'm pretty sure you can do warming in Gaggenau without resorting to Shabbat Mode, at a proper temperature. The big question is how fine a temperature you can set. In regular modes, at the top and bottom of the scale, it goes by 25 degree jumps, and by fives in the normal cooking range. That might be a stupid engineer guessing that you don't want fine control at the edges, or an admission that it can't hold a closer temperature at the extremes, which I find credible. I don't have time right now to check my warming settings, but remind me later if you want me to.

Gaggenau is the ultimate in reliable. The other ovens you were looking at seem to be good as well.

None of this answers the question about the combi-steam. Remember the plumbing and installation. You're talking about $10K for a small oven. You'll probably use it all the time, so it's a good investment, but you don't need it. It's thoroughly excellent, but only you know if it's excellent enough. Is there any kind of showroom near you that does demos? In California, there's Purcell-Murray in the Bay Area and Orange County.

I wish! I can't find any places near me that do cooking demos. maybe a nice New Jersey GW member who owns one would let me come over?

If there isn't a volunteer here, I'm sure you can find something. There are a couple of showrooms in Manhattan for sure. Maybe you have a friend who wants to go on a long outing for demos, and shopping or a show? Have you checked the Gaggenau website? I think they have a locator. Or ask your local appliance store if they know of somewhere closer where you can see it in action.

I'm a continent away from you, but if there's something you'd like me to test out, I'll be happy to try.

Just tried my 270 steam oven on different settings to see the temperature ranges. They're as given in the book, by fives. Regenerate [rewarm] goes by fives from to 140-280, Defrost goes from 100-140, dough rising goes from 85-120. Those have a preprogrammed moisture level. You can use the regular convection oven setting from 85-450 by fives, with whichever moisture level you choose. None of these are designated for keep warm, but you could just choose a level you'd like based on what you'd use in a warming drawer, and that would work. You could also use the regenerate mode. Since for warming up cooled food, you use it at at least 250 degrees, I didn't realize that it went down so far. Anyway, it has all the temperatures of a warming drawer covered, though with less room. :)

Hm... Okay, since I just use the thing and never paid that much attention before, I didn't realize this. The temperature control on the big oven is the same oddity in all modes, including the restricted ones. This is the one annoying thing about the oven, that between 150-300 and 475-550 you can only adjust by 25's. Now I'm convinced that it's because they thought you wouldn't want to fine tune it. Though I was sure I'd used 480 before for pizza....That's a wrong memory, or it only happens when the element is plugged in. So the temepratures go from 120-150 by fives, and from 300-475 by fives. Roaster mode (optional accessory to turn your oven into a Nesco roaster, basically) tops out at 430. Dough rising and defrosting are the same ranges as for the combi-steam (85-120 and 100-140 respectively, by fives). Plate warming/keep warm goes from 120 - 250 by fives. I don't know if the oven does anything for warming besides limiting the top temperature, or if it does anything for rising and defrosting besides making the lower temperatures available.

This is a five year old oven, and at least one behind the current model, so there might be differences. I'd expect them to be slight.

This photo shows the warming drawer under the range top. I am one of the shorter elves - 5' - so double ovens would be a stretch for me. I am really happy with the single wall oven, microwave, warming drawer and range top. For me....all of the bases are covered.

One of the blessings of western living is that we have so many options to personalize our space. I am truly grateful.

plllog i checked the website... no showroom in NYC :(

No Gaggenau showroom, but there are appliance showrooms that have Gaggenau. I think I saw that at least one had installed appliances, but, of course, you'd have to confirm that by calling. Google Gaggenau Showroom NYC. I haven't been on that side of the Rockies for a couple of decades, so I may not have understood what I was reading, but don't give up!