A 48,000 grain unit is 1.5 CF. 2.5 CF is 80,000. Just wanted to insure you order what you wanted because there is a big difference between the 2.

Thank you! Given my water conditions and usage, what do you recommend?

"My test results for hardness and TDS are very high compared to what the city has posted on its 2013 water quality report". Yea that's what happens when you rely on dated (2 year old) and ranged (instead of specific) municipal water reports instead of accurate testing at the installation site.

If I were you I'd get an accurate hardness test before I ordered anything.

Based on your numbers of 25 gpg and 6 people you're looking at a softener with a resin volume of 3.5 cu ft if you want to go about 7 to 8 days (with a one day reserve) between regenerations and program for water and salt efficiency @ 6 lbs/cu ft (21 lbs/regeneration).

With a 2.5 cube softener to get the capacity you would need for
7-8 days with reserve you'd need a salt dose of 15 lb/cu ft (38
lbs/regeneration) which wastes a lot of water and costs a lot more for
salt.

Just wanted to insure you order what you NEED

JMO

Makes sense. I shall do an accurate test using a local lab before taking this any further. Will post the results in a week's time. Thank you Justalurker! By the way, I have great respect for your opinions.

You should invest in a Hach 5B hardness test kit. Easy to use, reasonably priced, and a good tool to validate that a softener is holding soft all the way to regeneration.

You need to get an accurate measurement of you copper supply line. Picture #1 looks like your measurement is indicating a 1.25" ID copper pipe. If it is then the Fleck 7000, which is a 1.25" bore control valve, is a great choice.

The device in your first picture is a PRV and the softener will install AFTER that so it sees correct working water pressure.

Your math should be hardness x people x daily usage x 7 days to determine the size needed. So 25 x 6 x 65 x 7 = 68,250 grain removed every 7 days. Now you can go backwards. If you purchase an 80,000 / 25 / 6 / 65= 8.2 days between regen.

"Your math should be hardness x people x daily usage x 7 days to determine the size needed". So, no reserve in the calculation and no consideration for efficient salt dose?

With YOUR recommendation the OP buys an 80k (2.5 cube) softener and uses a salt dose of 15 lbs/cube to get 75k (not 80k) which is a total salt dose of 38 lbs every regeneration which is 1974 grains of hardness removed per pound of salt instead of MY recommendation for a 3.5 cube softener @ 6 lbs/cu ft which is 3333 grains of hardness removed per pound of salt. Slightly more expensive for the OP at time of purchase but he'll save money on salt and be putting less salt down the drain EVERY regeneration .

When you sell your customers softeners do you sell them salt too? The way you size softeners you're building in a nice recurring profit on salt instead of sizing for efficiency and costing your customers money EVERY regeneration.

I have ordered a Hach 5B hardness test kit. It arrives in 3 days. I have given 2 x 500ml water samples to a local lab this morning and made a note on your PVR connection instruction. I can't thank you enough for the expert advises. I will post the results as soon as I have them.

Your right. I was in a hurry this morning & didn't calculate using 6 lbs per CF. So the usable capacity would be 50, 000 grain / 25 / 6 / 65= 5.1 days between regens. Yes, I do sell salt, but I also use 6 lbs per CF settings. You really need to knock off the cheap shots. It does not do you any good.

Not cheap shots rather specific comments on inaccuracies in your posts. You can run your business however you want but when you post incorrect info here and posters can be misled I comment and offer accurate info. Don't like that, then proofread what you post or acknowledge and correct your mistakes instead of ragging me for pointing your mistakes out.

I go by what you type and then comment so the posters asking the questions get accurate information. They are the ones who don't get what they NEED when they base their decisions on inaccurate info.

The wiser purchase for this OP is a 3.5 cube softener based on the accepted 7-8 day regen (if no iron) with a 6 lbs/cube salt dose yielding an efficient 3333 grains of hardness removed per pound of salt and regenerating about 46 times in a year (460 times in 10 years).

With your 2.5 cube softener the OP will regen 2-3 days more often and over the course of a year send more gallons of water down the drain which costs him money and shortens the service life of the resin and control valve because it's regenerating around 73 times a year (730 times in 10 years). Annual salt use between the 2.5 and 3.5 cube softeners is about the same so why not save the cost of wasting water and get the longest service life from the resin and control valve?

The polite thing to say might be you should check you math and not say a word as to how I run my company. I did in fact say you were correct. I did not say which system to buy, I merely pointed out how the math worked. The fact that you have not mentioned the bigger system has a higher chance of channeling has got me puzzeled.

I tend to get less polite as mistakes occur more often from professionals who should know better.

"The fact that you have not mentioned the bigger system has a higher chance of channeling has got me puzzled". Seeing how you size a softener I understand that you are puzzled and I guess that's my fault too.

The single most common mistake made in sizing a softener by proclaimed water treatment professionals is not considering SFR and the close second most common mistake is not considering salt and water efficiency.

IMO with 6 people and an average daily water use of 360 gpd (2520 gallons in 7 days) there is as little chance of channeling with a 3,5 cube softener as there is with a 2,5 cube softener. Recommending an undersized softener that will regenerate every 5 days over a correctly sized softener that will regenerate every 7-8 days is just plain wasting the customer's money whch, IMO, reflects how anyone runs their water treatment business.

Free advice is worth what you pay for it. Posters have to decide what advice to accept and what advice to ignore.

OP, just curious (no cheap shot) how did you arrive at 2.5cuft? You seem to have some knowledge about sizing and you probably used a well-known calculator so it should have been obvious that 2.5 would not work well with the high hardness you are reporting.

If you want to figure-in two toddlers as 2 users @ 60gpd then OK. I wouldn't. You actually don't mention your water usage exactly- flow rate is not the same thing. If you did not include the toddlers as 60gpd users then OK, 2.5 might work fine. Just break-out your past 12 months water bill and figure off of the converted-ccf usage. Isn't this what it is all about- nailing it down to exactly what you need?? I've got 10 and 12 yr. old kids and they don't come anytwhere near 60/day...

As for the plumbing size, you surely do not have inch and a half piping/service there. Don't measure on the cup and don't go by the OD. If your system is to code, you probably have one inch service with 1-1/4 copper aft of the meter. 7000 for sure and get a plumber to do the job (been there, done that, not fun).

"If you want to figure-in two toddlers as 2 users @ 60gpd then OK. I wouldn't".

The question of toddlers versus full size people in regards to water use is always interesting.

Would those toddlers be toddlers forever or would they grow? Children tend to generate much more dirty laundry than full size people. When toddlers hit those teen years they often use more water than adults. 60 gallons of water use per day per person is a widely accepted number and works well almost all the time.

You could count a toddler as half a full size water user and then size for that but when they've grown, and they will grow, your softener will be less efficient having to regenerate more often. Do you buy a one bedroom house as newlyweds or do you buy a house based on the projected size of your family?

Sizing a softener for the worst scenario always works for me. Size for highest
hardness when there is a range (municipal water drawn from multiple
sources), peak SFR so there isn't any hardness leaking through, salt and water efficiency, and
counting a breathing body as one person regardless of age,.. but that's just me.

Yes, I made a mistake. By your standards, I should be taken out back and shot. I never recommended the size. Again. I merely showed the math. Besides, I love when non water treatment people size the systems. SFR is determined when all faucets in the home is on at the same time not just a couple. Why not go with a 6 CF system? Or even a 10 CF. 2.5 CF is not undersized by a long shot. People like you that have never spent 1 day on the field as a water treatment tech crack me up. They read a few books and think they know everything. I think in 25+ years in water treatment I may have learned something.

I'll stack the hundreds of substantive and accurate posts I've made on this forum against the few you've made. Not one poster has ever reported my information or recommendations inaccurate or that what I recommended failed to do exactly what I said it would based on the info the OP provided. Not one instance of channeling or hardness leaking through. Your FOUR posts on this forum are rife with inaccuracies and arguments and self-promotion... none which serve any poster.

"I think in 25+ years in water treatment I may have learned something". I'd think that in 25 years you may have learned something but your posts indicate not. Your posts indicate that you are among those water treatment hucksters who confuse and ill advise customers to the point they come to these forums to get advice from people who aren't trying to reach into their pockets. As I've said before... the length of time one does anything is not an indicator of whether the thing is being done well.

This is not the DIY forum you frequent where you are the one-eyed king among the blind. It's hilarious that your avatar there is Foghorn Leghorn a cartoon character famous for bluster and hollow oratory or as they say in Texas... all hat and no cattle. Based on your posts here I can't think of a more fitting avatar.

As George Carlin said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring
you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Sage advice and
I'll take it.

I welcome your posts on this forum but when you post and are challenged back up your position with fact.

I agree sizing for what could be the WC is OK (within say the next 10 years). As technology is always changing and goods seem to be made less robust, I won't look too far ahead. My kids tell me not to use too much water- not the other way around. That's the new generation. New water-using appliances use far less water now and will do so in the future.

I suggest OP looks at his/her water bill. Post back here whether or not 60/day/person is reality.

cntl4userguy, my estimation of 2.5 Cu.Ft was purely judgmental based on what I read on other threads. I now understand there is robust math involved for sizing and it is completely based on my usage / conditions. I bought this home less than a month back :) and so don't have a clear usage pattern yet. Will try to get a closer approximation from my prior home water statements. Regarding the 1.5 inch size valve, it was told to me by a plumber sent by Lowes to inspect my home water supply. I was also told that I can never install a water softener at my home because my main water supply valve is greater than 1 inch. Attached a couple of pictures of my PRV main supply valve (Watt 25AUB 25 to 75 PSI model number missing on the tag). Clearly folks here know a lot more than what two reputed home improvement retail store plumbing departments. No kidding, it is a fact.

Justalurker and Biermech - I feel responsible for you both locking horns and I humbly request you not to continue it further. I shall have my lab results in 3 to 4 days and will post the details here for your suggestion based on accurate results/usage. Thank you both.

PRV - Pic 1

PRV - Picture 2

cntl4userguy,

The water treatment industry, along with other entities, monitors water usage per person per day and uses a VERY large sampling to do so. The accepted water treatment industry standard was 75 gpd/person for quite a long time. With the advent of more water efficient appliances the data reflected a more conservative number of 60 gpd/person and the industry adopted that as an acceptable (average) number a while ago.

Water authorities treat water at the treatment plant not at the home site. Water conditions are never set in stone (calcium?). They fluctuate due to the nature of the water, the pipes the water runs through and how far the water runs through it, how often the conditions are monitored and where in the system the monitoring takes place. and among other factors the temperature of the water at the monitoring point and at the softener installation location.

Water authorities generally meter down to thousands of gallons on a water bill (mine does) and over the course of a year that can be a sizable inaccuracy when relying on that data to compute gpd/person.

Attempting to refine the chemistry and physics and mechanics of water
treatment down to the finest pencil point often results in hardness leak
through which undermines the expectations of a consumer paying to get soft
water.

I'll favor the accepted number of 60 gpd/person (till it changes) and give the consumer the soft water all the time he/she expects and pays for.

rsvenkat14,

It will come as quite a surprise to that Lowe's plumber that softeners are available to accommodate plumbing sizes all the way up to pipe diameters that one plumber can't carry so here's another great example of why to stay away from big box stores and their partners. I've seen softeners at an Intel Fab that are truly massive and incredibly complex.

Without putting calipers on your water line IT APPEARS THAT THE PRV IS REDUCING THE LINE SIZE TO 3/4" which is just fine for a Fleck 7000 or Clack WS1.

With the main water shutoff AFTER the PRV I hope there's a shut-off at the meter so when the PRV fails, and they do, a plumber can shut off the water to change it out.

You are not responsible for any horn locking as this is not the only thread that precipitated it, but respecting your concern I will refrain from posting in this thread.

^That's fine, 60/day. So where is the argument coming from that a 2.5cuft resin bed is going to fit the OP? I don't see how unless that water consumption number comes down or you regen way to often.

OP. if you have 1-1/2 meter then that piping is undersized by code. I just got done with this mess of my own. Your measurement shows some 1-1/4 copper heading into the building. You can have an 1-1/2 regulator. You can have a 2". Nothing in the code about exceeding I/D of the meter. But, technically, if you are showing 1-1/4 copper into that ball valve, you have a 1" meter somewhere onsite.

So while you are at checking into exactly how much water you use, you can prowl around for that same meter and check the model number. Forget the bill just go for the meter reading.

Justalurker, there is no shut off at the meter. I will check with my water provider how to shut off water from the meter to PRV. Below are the pictures of how the meter to home connection is set up. I shall try to get a vernier caliper to measure the size of the male brass sweated before the shut off valve and post it later this evening.

Pic of meter to home

full size picture of main supply

Said I wouldn't but... sure looks like a GAS meter to me cause it says "cubic feet"

I suspect your water meter is in the ground out by the street. Look for a cover plate at or near the curb.

I didn't notice the elbow before the ball valve. Where does that turn in to? I will second that assumption that it could be in a vault located in the public sidewalk on your frontage.

That looks like 3/4" pipe to me. Look on the ball valve. I will indicate the size.

I agree but wondered of it was camera distortion. Nonetheless, he isn't dealing with 1.5 or even 1.25 water service.

Justalurker, please don't stop your suggestions. I do need them.

Water Meter was indeed out by the street (bowing to your expertise).

Cntl4userguy - Elbow before the ball valve goes into the drywall and nothing coming out (used a measuring tape inside and outside garage to confirm). Guess inside the drywall it is turning down and runs underground to the water meter on the street. I noticed my previous picture was flipped horizontally and hence could be misleading. I have rotated and posted it again. The way it is below is how I see it inside my garage.

Biermech - Ball valve didn't indicate any size to my eyes. Posted pictures of the embossed readings of Ball Valve.

To all: If I understand correctly, the water softener will go at the point indicated as "B" in my picture. This is the one I need to measure to check if I need a 1.5 or 1.25 connection to the softener. Please let me know.

"A" is the main supply line coming into the home. "C" is where the post PRV water goes for home use.

WOW! You must feel special. LOL Now tell us how this is helping the OP Gary.

I'll stack the hundreds of substantive and accurate posts I've made on this forum against the few you've made. Not one poster has ever reported my information or recommendations inaccurate or that what I recommended failed to do exactly what I said it would based on the info the OP provided. Not one instance of channeling or hardness leaking through. Your FOUR posts on this forum are rife with inaccuracies and arguments and self-promotion... none which serve any poster.

"I think in 25+ years in water treatment I may have learned something". I'd think that in 25 years you may have learned something but your posts indicate not. Your posts indicate that you are among those water treatment hucksters who confuse and ill advise customers to the point they come to these forums to get advice from people who aren't trying to reach into their pockets. As I've said before... the length of time one does anything is not an indicator of whether the thing is being done well.

This is not the DIY forum you frequent where you are the one-eyed king among the blind. It's hilarious that your avatar there is Foghorn Leghorn a cartoon character famous for bluster and hollow oratory or as they say in Texas... all hat and no cattle. Based on your posts here I can't think of a more fitting avatar.

As George Carlin said “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” Sage advice and I'll take it.

I welcome your posts on this forum but when you post and are challenged back up your position with fact.

I don't want this thread becoming a social media forum, but now feel the responsibility to call a spade a spade. Justalurker has done a stupendous job responding to questions in a detailed manner and he sure is a highly trusted adviser to me and many on this forum. He is far beyond appreciations.

I plan to end this thread here and open a new one when I have the lab results.

OP, your lab results are a spot-check. As mentioned by others, it probably may be best to assume at some point in time you will encounter the maximum result found on the old city report. It's possible right? They switch wells during the year.

What's just as important is your water usage. Run that same calc at 240gpd and see what size bed it calls out. Lastly, and only until you are ready to install then determine existing plumbing supply line into the house. 7000 will handle up to 1.25 inch inlet/outlet so don't worry, you certainly don't have a 1.5" (1.25" doesn't exist) meter in that box.

Thank you cntl4userguy. Much appreciate your insights.

^That's a given.

Agree vithdude. There was only one meter outside my garage wall closer to where my water supply line comes in and thus ended up with an incorrect assumption which later got well corrected by many including yourself. Thanks for your comments.