Now in terms of product lines for lighting scene controls, so far I like the option of either Lutron RadioRA2 Scene control or WattStopper LMSW-105 Digital 5-Button Scene Switch.

Here are some questions that I still need to understand about these two systems. Does anyone have any answers to any of the below questions or any input on either of these products? Or is there another system that is better for a residential application to control lighting scenes and not pay an arm and a leg to have this convenience?

1) Please help me understand what we would need to buy for each main room (e.g. kitchen, great room, dining room, media room and master bedroom). Let us assume there is at least a 3 way switch in each room as the house is open concept with multiple entrances to the rooms. Let us also assume each main room has at least three circuits that we want to control and dim separately (e.g. in a dining room there is a) chandy b) mood lights and c) can lights).

2) Any general guidance on pricing of necessary products for lighting scene control? What suppliers offer the products and good pricing for owner/builders and sell directly to DIY builders?

3) What needs to be done to add a scene control in terms of wiring before walls are closed up? In other words, do we need low voltage wiring, line voltage or are the products controlled wirelessly and can be added after the walls have closed up?

4)Do we need to hire a low voltage or lighting contractor to commission these scene controls or can they be DIY installed (assume owner is handy/knowledgeable enough to do some of own wiring)?

5)Do the scene controls in a room eliminate the need to have the multiple groups of light switches (or are they in addition to the multiple switches)? In other words, if we have 3 circuits needing to be controlled in a room, do we have one Lutron or Wattstopper scene control beside a 3 gang regular light switch or only the scene control box?

6)For those who want to DIY the lighting scene controls themselves where can they learn how to do their own install?

Thanks for any comments, answers or brainstorming on this topic that you can share!

Carol

The watt stopper product will be an expensive deadend.

Real home automation options
1. Insteon
2. Z wave
3. Zigbee
4. Lutron's Caseta line
5. Lutron's RadioRA
6. EnOcean
7. Wifi & BLE

Insteon provides control either over the power lines or RF. It can be viewed as the successor to X10. It is probably the cheapest option (not counting modifications to wiring for fluorescent lighting) for small systems ie: under 10 devices and incandescent lighting. CFL bulbs don't work too well- shortened lifespan.
Z wave is a proprietary RF protocol in the sub Ghz region ~ 900 mhz. Readily available at Lowes and HD. Somewhat more expensive than x10/ Insteon, but you have door locks and GE alarm system support
Zigbee - an IEEE standard that has been pushed in a more proprietary direction by Control4.
Lutron's offerings are based on 433 mhz band, using proprietary protocol called Clear Connect. RadioRA2 is not compatible with Caseta.
EnOcean - a standard from Europe (Germany) which has a heavy emphasis on energy harvesting technology.
Wifi is entering the picture in 2 ways - vendors pushing existing 80211 products into new markets and a new Wifi standard 80211ah is intended to provide a better wifi for the IoT (internet of things) market.
BLE ( bluetooth low energy) has also gained a toehold - locks, blinds,...
All the options will require a hub that is connected to an IP based local area network (and hence the internet)for one to manipulate controls from a computing device - smart phone, computer, ...

How to figure things out
1. Count the number of devices (switches, blinds, ...) you want to control
2. Figure out how your internet access will be distributed at home. A structured wiring setup is essential
3. It is likely that you'd end up with 2 or more technologies - eg RadioRA2 , wifi and in some instances Control4, BLE

If you have more questions, you may contact me offline.

Slightly deeper dive into existing WiFi IoT products, infrastructure needs and the future
Existing IoT products which utilize Wifi include the following
Phllips Hue bulbs, LiFX bulbs, Nest Protect, Thermostat, ...

Most products rely on the 2.4Ghz band (b/g/n) since that provides the greatest range and lowet cost.

Downsides to using existing Wifi
1. High power consumption since the devices need to follow the existing Wifi protocol to ensure that they remain connected to the access point.
2. More IoT devices connected to the same access point may cause a noticeable drop in connectivity performance.
3. In some cases, the max number of clients the access point can have connected simultaneously could be exceeded, causing random drops in connection.
4. Wifi coverage (for common home APs) and interference from baby monitors, microwave ovens, ...

Having said that, Wifi is essential.
Recommendations
1. A site survey should be conducted to figure out how many APs are necessary.
2. Figure out the management of multiple APs if more than one is required.
3. Multiple APs will need to be connected together to a main router supplied by the ISP (and also to the HA hub).

80211ah changes
1. Sub Ghz band - better coverage, but lower data rate - not a real consideration for IoT or HA applications.
2. Significantly longer beacon interval - lower power consumption.
3. 80211ah clients will be connected to different radio and not count towards the limit for any current APs.
4. A new AP that supports 80211ah will be required.

I have nothing to add. I'm trying to learn so just bumping in so I get updates.

The top 2 choices in no particular order are
1. Control4
2. RadioRA2

Reasons
1. Reliability of operation whether from remote application/ controller or local input
2. Minimal false triggers unlike X10.
3. RF based, no need for low voltage or any other special wiring.
4. The dimmers are mostly adaptive phase - works both with ELV and MLV type devices without problem.

As for whether scene controls could eliminate individual controls, that depends on whether the actual control is embedded/ hidden away (like in an enocean setup).

Most practical route is to retain the minimum individual controls necessary.

Scenes will be programmed into and controlled from the hub (e.g.:-RadioRA2 main repeater).

Wow Davidtay what a wealth of information you are. I will reread your post many times and expect to understand a bit more each time. We will look seriously at your top recommendations of Lutron's RadioRA2 and Control 4.

I do have some follow-up questions and my questions will reveal just how much I don't know about this difficult subject.

1)As per the Wattstopper product being a deadend, do you mean the product will only control lights (and not link to other needs such as HVAC, blinds etc)? If so I would consider that a plus as simplicity is what I seek. We already have a pretty fancy, internet linked control panel. for our in-floor heat that the contractor put in without consultation on the pros and cons of the system. It cost us bundles and we would have preferred a much simpler HVAC control. I am sure we will never figure out how to use all the features of the HVAC control.

2)Do all scene controllers ultimately need to be controlled by a computer? It seemed the simple WattStopper was controlled at the wall.

3)If I wanted to go with Lutron's RadioRA2, how many parts would I need to buy to use scene control in my main rooms (great room, kitchen, dining room, media room, living room, etc)?

4)We are also exploring the option of simplifying further by just having one scene control positioned on a wall that is near to kitchen, dining room and great room that would set scenes for these three rooms together and just use regular light switches elsewhere (as it seems we need to keep all switches at entries of each room anyway). Can one scene control, control 3 open concept rooms or is this too much to ask?

Thanks so much for your information.

Carol

Why the WattStopper is a dead end
1. The entire system is hardwired like older generation alarm systems. Low voltage wiring (especially for communications/ control) should not be laid in close proximity and in parallel with line voltage lines as they will pick up interference (via induction) from the line voltage.
2. Adding devices will require major planning and rework.
3. Low voltage control lines are more effort than RF based control. Take the example of a 3 way circuit. With a RF based control system, you only need a regular single way circuit as the RF controls (e.g. - pico control) make up a virtual multiway circuit and the pico control can be placed any where.

To replicate it using a low voltage control lines, you'd need to lay down the necessary low voltage wiring, which is at least equivalent to (if not more trouble than) laying down a regular line voltage multiway wiring.

Many devices today that do not look like computers actually have the computing horsepower of an Intel 486 computer or better these days. For example - a Wifi router, Home Automation hubs, the ISP router box, set top box, some flat screen TVs, ...

Even the simple WattStopper has a small computer.

All automated lighting systems - whether it be Z Wave, RadioRA2, Zigbee/ Control4, alarm panel from FrontPoint/ Protect America/ ADT, ... utilize a hub which contains a CPU, memory, storage, maybe a small display and communication lines - essentially computers in their own right.

Assuming that each room has 3 main switches - each controlling a specific light layer/ zone,
total of 9 switches, 1 hub. The scene controller could be an iPad or smart phone, ...

If you're thinking of having a fixed multi button controller, you could add as many as you think you need - probably one or two would suffice. However, with internet connected devices, there is little or no need for fixed multi button controllers.

Software based controls are far more flexible and configurable than hard wired or fixed form factor button devices. For instance, re-configuring a software interface to control a different scene takes far less effort than re-configuring a fixed form factor button controller - new labels have to be printed, the button controller has to be re-programmed.

Yes a scene controller can control different spaces - need not be contiguous since ultimately, the control resides in the Home Automation hub(s) whether it be a Control 4, Radio RA or SmartThings device hub(s). The smart device / traditional computer that connects to the hub(s) simply sends a bunch of commands.

For practical purposes, it makes sense to pick a system that has the following characteristics
a. Reliable communication to attached devices
b. Low false triggers
c. Expandable - more dimmers, shades, sensors, ...
d. Established integration with other vendor products

The multi button control you see on the wall is connected to a LMRC-212 Dimming Room Controller which is the real brains behind the entire setup.

This setup only makes limited sense for new construction where each room is already planned for and wired with cat5e/ cat6 runs and the line voltage wiring is wired to the controller. The wiring would look strange.

Lots of things to worry about.

Thanks ever so much for taking the time to educate us all on this topic, Davidtay. I appreciate all your specific answers to my many questions on the topic.

I have so much to learn.

Carol

From reading the specifications,
1. The wall switches will have to be wired using cat5e.
a. Most electricians will find this setup strange as most
switches are directly wired into a 120v line voltage
circuit.
b. Major rework required to convert existing conventional
circuit and vice versa.
c. You're locked into the system unlike RF based
solutions like Z wave, RadioRA2, Control4 or enOcean
d. The cat 5e lines used for the lighting system will be
independent of any IP network cat 5e/ 6 wiring. May
not be too big an issue if the network cabling is laid
at the same time.
e. All switch locations are fixed.
f. Any controller failure would take out the connected
lighting system. The failure of a Z Wave, Radio RA2
or Control4 controller will not affect manual operation
of the physical switch.

David, Thanks for helping me understand the limitations of the Watt Stopper product. I will look elsewhere.

Carol

Light fitting with sensing technique can control and reduce energy bills. Inside the house, if nobody in the room, let the sensor decide to shut down the light if there is nobody in the room. There should be a manual option too.

Very seldom people genuinely invest their precious time and effort to decide on the correct size and king size mattress dimensions that can meet their requirements.

I agree, tomcircle. What is the best kind of vacancy sensor to use that does not lead to false triggers? Also, is anyone installing occupancy sensors in rooms such as closets, garage or laundry where your hands might be full as you enter the room (e.g. flipping on a switch is challenging.

Yes, I have multiple- connected to an alarm system and others connected separately to a RadioRA2 HA system.

The nice thing about Lutron's RadioRA2 occupancy sensors is that they can be programmed to

1. occupancy/ vacancy/ off mode depending on a rule (e.g. - time of day, system mode - away, etc)

2. control different light circuits to create paths of light/ security purposes e.g. motion detected in the hallway @ 1 am causes lights to be turned on the the bedroom(s) and hallway.

They are not as prone to false triggers as some other switches with a built-in PIR detector. That being said, there will always be some false triggers.

The latest garage door openers have occupancy sensors built into the controls that are mounted on the wall.

OntarioMom - Not to hijack your thread but there appears to be no other way to contact you outside of posting to one of your threads now that Houzz ruined our beautiful discussion boards. Anyways, over in the electrical wiring Forum I just posted a proposal / plan layout for a low-volt electrical wiring setup from a contractor for home automation/lighting control, etc. and I know we're on the same journey timelines here so I figured you might have interest. I'm still digging in the Lutron RadioRA2 setup and David Tay has been a great help and I'm working to integrate that into everything else and will let you know when I get that figured out too. Thanks again!

Andrew

Hey Andrew. Thanks for the update. I am following you now too, so you will be able to contact me that way as well. I will check out your thread in the electrical wiring forum. Glad to know it is there -- I don't tend to check that forum very often.

Did you get the rest of your lighting plan done? We are almost done with ours. We just met with the lighting designer again today to firm up fixture, can light, and rope light location. The last step will be the controls and how to circuit all these lights.

David, if you are reading this, can I follow you too so I may pose questions to you as I get my head around these controls?

Carol

Carol - please post your final plans with controls and circuit setups - I'd love to see your plans. Mine haven't changed much in regards to can placement, etc. and rough electrical is being run as we speak. The thing I'm still trying to figure out is what exactly I need from Lutron for RadioRA2 and what types of LED tape to use for the undercabinet lighting as well as the cove lighting in the tray in my master bedroom. Thanks

Carol,

You can contact me offline.

David

Just re-reading this post. Thanks again for all the info, David. For others who are trying to get their head around lighting scene controls (home automation, dimmers, occupancy sensors, etc), I found useful on-line training on the Lutron website. There is hours worth of information on that on-line site (requires registration) that I am working through. I thought a few others coming across this post might find Lutron's site informative as well.

Carol

Do you mean this site?Luton product forums

That was not the one I found (although I will check it out). The one I found was:

Lutron on-line training

David,

I have watched many of the videos in the link I posted above in an attempt to get around what I would need to install the RadiaRa2 for lighting scene control in my home. I have two more questions question (my apologies on how dense I am being on the topic).

1)If I want to have lighting scene control in all major rooms of my home, and am willing to buy enough in-wall key pads for all switches (be it 3 way, 4 way etc) for the main rooms, how many Grafix Eye QS do I need? I gather I need the Grafix Eye or equivalent to speak to the in-wall key pads. Just not sure if I need more than one Grafix Eye QS.

2)I still am hoping there is a way to avoid keeping all the multi-gang wall switches (they are taking up so much of our limited wall space). I understand from your answer earlier in this thread, that I will likely need to keep most of the wall switches in the wall and just add the in-wall switch from Lutron beside them. However, your answer above implied there may be a way to reduce or limit those individual switches. Can you elaborate? In an ideal world (and if money was available), I would love to eventually replace all the multi-gang switches with a Lutron in-wall perhaps 4 button wall switch and have these speak to the Grafix Eye QS. Is this a possibility?

Thanks!

David, you are very helpful! There would not be a lighting forum without your help.

Carol

In my ongoing quest to learn about home automation design. and, in particular, lighting controls, I happened upon this website. The owner of the website is also an author of many home automation books. He is based out of Ireland, so not sure how different their procedures would be there and if they would tend to use different companies from here in North America.

Anyway, I have not ordered the video/book package yet, as I am awaiting more info from the author as to scope of work and applicability to Lutron RadioRa2 or Control4.

Has anyone heard of the author in the link? Do you know of any other books or good websites to help someone get their head around home automation and lighting controls in general?

home automation on-line videos

Carol

So, I ordered the above videos. I am part way through viewing them. Not bad. I wished they were more suited to DIY types tyring to learn about install. Instead, they are more about teaching you how to add Smarthome installs to your electrical install business.

Now, I do have a new question. For new builds is it better to do hardwire install for scene light switches, or just skip to wireless. If you do recommend hardwire for situations where walls are wide open, what hardwire lighting scene controls do you recommend? My apologies if some of the above systems are hardwired. I have not checked them all out.

Also, what hubs are best?

Carol

Of all the options that were presented earlier, only Insteon may be considered wired as the signals are either transmitted over the power line (120V AC lines) or RF.

The most prudent approach would be to go wireless.

As for hubs, it depends on what you're installing. Ultimately all the hubs will be connected together over a ethernet type (includes 80211/ Wifi ) network using TCP/ IP and/ or UDP.

Take the following 2 examples

a. If you intend to use the Caseta line, you could go with the Staples' HA hub.

b. If you decide to go with Zigbee (e.g. - Phillips Hue), the bulbs come with a hub. If you manage to get some Control4 equipment (via eBay), you'd need to integrate the Control4 controller with whatever other hub (e.g. - Phillips Hue) you have.

The first step is to figure out what control system makes the most sense in your situation

- Control4 or RadioRA2 or Caseta, etc

Real home automation options
1. Insteon
2. Z wave
3. Zigbee
4. Lutron's Caseta line
5. Lutron's RadioRA
6. EnOcean
7. Wifi & BLE

Thanks again David! Good to know there are no real advantages of hard wired. We are looking more closely at the Insteon line as it seems a bit more affordable that say Lutron's RadioRa2 -- but still not sure. If we do go the Insteon line, do you still recommend we go wireless, or hardwired for that line?

Carol

@ David: To update my post above, I see from rereading your posts that there are problems with using low voltage close (in parallel) to line voltage so I gather (please excuse my steep learning curve) that wireless is just the easiest overall and just as effective.

You mentioned Zigbee above. Do you have any thoughts on the Centralite system (Zigbee driven). The video series I have been listening to, mentioned that system. I think it is more cost effective in comparison to RadioRa2 or Control4 (still need to cost it out). Can you please tell me any benefits or drawbacks of Centralite you are aware of? Once again, I am sorry for all these questions and appreciate your answers immensely. We are not finding very much info and resources out there on lighting control (even our electrician knows next to nothing on them).

Carol

You should be going wireless.

The switches and other controls you purchase should last you at least 10 years or more, so you should choose wisely and not solely on the initial purchase cost.

Pitch for Lutron

1. The company has been around for quite a while now and their products are generally considered to be the market leaders - in terms of performance, reliability.

2. They have active development in wireless comms/ control and control more of the ecosystem than vendors like SmartHome (Insteon).

3. They have partners (Control4, ...)

Zigbee at this point in time is an IEEE (802.15) standard that hasn't been curated / tended to with as much attention as 802.11 Wifi. That will change with time as chip vendors figure things out and finally put more effort into ensuring an industry wide standard that works reliably.

If you're going with Zigbee, imo, it would be prudent to stick with Control4 as they have been actively pushing development in the HA side even though it has been more proprietary than open. FYI, Control4 uses a sub ghz band (~900 Mhz) for signaling using ZigBee protocols while a bunch of other vendors are using the 2.4Ghz band for ZigBee.

Both are allowed in the 802.15 specification.

To reiterate, the controls you purchase today should

1. Last and be supported for (by the manufacturer) at least 10 years or more. After all, all HA controls cost significantly more than the plain old manual decora / toggle switch.

2. Work as well as non connected controls like the Lutron Maestro dimmers

- similar dimming performance, durability, ...

3. There should be a means of interoperating with other vendors' systems

(eg - Chamberlain garage openers, GE alarm panels, ...)

Conclusion - the top 2 choices are still Lutron RadioRA2 or Control4.

Thanks once again for your thorough explanation, David.

@Andrew: Are you still planning to do some HomeAutomation. What system are you leaning towards?

Carol

Carol & GW Community,

I apologize as I haven't fallen off the cliff - just had a couple of B2B business trips out of the area and am playing catch up - especially now that it warmed up and the house is moving at full-speed again.

I had the house pre-wired 2 weekends ago now so that I have the future capability for home automation. After some back and forth with several vendors, I've decided that I am going to integrate a small Lutron RadioRA2 system for the main areas of the house (Think 1st floor & master bed/bath). I plan to eventually tie in the exterior lighting and garage.

As far as other home automation plans, I am still working out the security, A/V, etc. but planning FrontPoint for monitoring (wireless) and an in-house security camera set-up with recording. Hope this helps - thanks again!

Andrew

One other thing about Lutron - I plan on eventually connecting some automated shades once we've lived in the house for a while and have established living patterns and the Lutron gives you that future option as well.

Can you tell me in more detail what the pre-wiring entailed? I think we will go for keeping our options open and adding as we go. Just want to make sure we get the wires in the walls for flexibility later.

Carol

I would say that you would need to have the following

1. ethernet wiring configured for a standard IP based spoke and hub network

2. analog audio/ video distribution

Carol,

Each home will have a unique network setup based on the owners' requirements. The following link has some ideas and hints for consideration

Home grown network

This looks like a great resource. Thanks for posting it David!

Carol