I just found another interesting option at Raintree Nursery.
It's supposedly self-fertile and is called:
Victoria plum/Marianna 2624/SPRING
http://www.raintreenursery.com/Victoria_plum_Marianna_2624.html

Any opinions on this variety? Is it really self-pollinating? How does it compare to the others?

There's also a similar plum called Jubileum that may be an improvement of the Victoria. However, are either of these plums available anywhere in the Midwest so shipping would be cheaper?

http://www.raintreenursery.com/Jubileum_Plum_St_Julian.html

Also, would European or Asian plums be easier to fit at the corner of my house, against a wall if that's the site I chose? Does one type tend to be smaller?

This post was edited by CuriousHomeOwner on Thu, Feb 5, 15 at 20:06

I live in Northeast Ohio, so we have similar climates. I planted some plums (mostly euro's) in 2013 & 2014. None have fruited yet so I have limited advice to offer. The few trees I lost were due to poor drainage/heavy soil. Myro and Marianna 2624 seem to be the best rootstocks for me. Black knot has been an issue on the euros, not yet on the asians. The only tree to fruit for me so far is a Montmorency Cherry. I planted it in 2012; it fruited in 2013 and 2014 (after a very bad winter). Of the nurseries you mentioned, I have trees from Grandpa's & Raintree, and they are doing fine.

Also, most people seem to recommend not planting a multi-variety combo tree, but Raintree has a tempting 4-in-1 euro plum and a 4-in-1 asian plum. They are both on peach rootstock, however, so I would have to build quite a large raised bed/mound due to poor drainage. Having said that, I am leaning towards giving one a shot.

@Ztom: Thanks for your reply! That's exciting you've been planting trees the last few years. What are some of the varieties you chose and why? That's interesting that you've found certain rootstocks better in your soil. I know very little about rootstock, but am starting to learn. Did you plant dwarf, semi-dwarf or ??? rootstocks and why?

I saw Raintree's grafted plums. They did look tempting. I especially thought the varieties on the European one sounded fun. However, part of me is still leery of a grafted tree. I still need to master pruning 101 for a traditional tree. Another part of me wants to learn to graft myself (some friends did put in a backyard orchard), but that's getting way ahead of myself :)

I also just learned that the Asian plum variety Methley is self-pollinating and some say Santa Rosa is self-pollinating. Are those among the varieties you chose/considered? I'd really like some more feedback on how people like the more traditional European plums, as well. Did you choose any of those?

Hi HoweOwner:

To get a variety you wish to have it's going to need be grafted. Grafted trees are not any more difficult to establish than non-grafted. The roots will be the same as a seedling/rooted cutting and the planting and aftercare are precisely the same.

So, get what you would like to have, on what rootstock type and if you care for it well, you'll be set.

Do look at any grafted tree to find a visible area on it where the graft took place and anything below that graft area (which are called suckers) should be removed. If you see buds forming beneath the graft union, you can rub those off with your fingers before they begin growing. It's only the wood of the variety that was grafted to the seedling that should be allowed to grow.

Hope this helps!

Dax

Dax - Perhaps I was unclear. I do want a tree grafted onto rootstock rather than a seedling. But, I was wondering if it's harder to prune a tree in which two or more varieties are grafted onto the top (producing multiple varieties of fruit), or if it's possibly harder for such a tree to thrive at all (perhaps one variety is more vigorous or ???).

Thanks for your information on removing suckers and buds below the graft union. That was very helpful since I need to learn how to prune my trees.

I live in SE MI and I myself really don't have interest in Euro plums. So can't suggest any. Many you mentioned are used to make prunes. Very sweet, good for cooking too.
To me the Japanese plums are more for fresh eating. But I hope to cook with them too.
I would get two even if self fertile as they will produce more. I have all young trees. I control size by pruning. I have mostly peach trees, but also adding plum trees this year. I choose Weeping Santa Rosa for ornamental reasons and as a pollinator for my interspecific crosses.
I added Satsuma too it's been shown to be prolific, good tasting and a reliable producer. Oh btw Euros take longer to fruit too, sometimes as long as 5 years.
Metheny has mixed reviews on taste but seems to be easy to grow,
Multi grafted trees are a little harder to grow as you need to balance them out, but I prune mine down so much, not really an issue for me. I plan to add a few plums via scion wood too. Just to practice grafting and too extend season and flavors of plums.

i would call a couple local orchards ... and ask them .... this is a great time of year to talk with orchard peeps ...... when they arent very busy ....

kapnick orchard south of tecumseh is near me ... see link

i have tried for decades.. to grow stanleys.... with little or no knowledge.. lol ... and no true fruit growing protocol ... with no luck ... black knot seemed to get the plants.. just about the time they were mature enough to fruit .... all this because we had one in the 60s ... crikey ...

ken .. in the real SE MI ... so SE.. adrian is almost a burb of toledo ....

Here is a link that might be useful: i see they do grow Ps

Good to hear from some people from the area!
@ Drew - I was wondering how much I could control size by pruning. If I could do that substantially, I might be able to fit in more fruit trees! That would be fun :) I've also heard good things about Satsuma. Maybe I should try it. I really like red plums. If Euros take longer, that's definitely relevant in my choice. Good to know. From some of the other above comments, it sounds like black knot is a problem for european plums in this area. Maybe I could learn to prune well enough to handle a multi-grafted tree. It certainly sounds like an adventure :) Thanks for your feedback.

@ Ken, calling an orchard or two or three sounds like a good idea. I guess it also intimidates me because I sort of feel like I'm asking them to share their trade secrets :) But, maybe they'd enjoy sharing a bit of wisdom. That's interesting you've struggled with Stanleys. I somehow got the idea in my head that European plums like that were super easy to grow. I'll keep that in mind. You are SEMichigan there in Adrian. I'm just a bit farther north, about 45 minutes from Toledo in Milan. Thanks.

I'm just north of Detroit 8 miles from 8 mile.
Check out linked videos on controlling size. The bottom videos are the oldest, go there and look for ones on backyard orchard culture. (BYOC). This is essential info for backyard growers.

On peach trees Redhaven is a good one developed in MI too. I just obtained a scion of it. I have PF lucky 13 peach. Developed by Paul Friday of Michigan. One of his better trees. He has a few good ones. Many excellent peach trees out there. Check the peach tree report in this forum for info on what cultivars rock!

I just got scion wood of Redhaven, Redskin, O'Henry, and Winblo. All very good cultivars. Many others are out there too.

I also have Indian Free, a very unique peach. My tree though has canker, so I took some scion from it that looks clean. I hope to graft it and remove tree. I was thinking of getting Old Mixon Free to replace it if scion takes. If not i will buy another Indian Free. I'm going to try and save the tree too. Cankers were removed.

Here is a link that might be useful: BYOC

Drew, Have you tried fresh Euro plums? Don't dismiss them just because they can be used to make prunes. At their best, they rank near the top for me, up there with sweet cherries from CA/WA (and better than any local cherries I've had).

But, not all varieties are good- most Stanley have been disappointing (a few were OK, not great). I've had very good Empress and Castleton (and another I never found the name for), though I've also had some sub-par ones which weren't properly ripened. Given Harvestman's recommendation, I'm sure Valor is as good or better than those two.

My experience is just from the Farmers Market though, as my Euro prunes(Valor, Vision, and Bluebyrd) went in last year. Some of the trees look like they may have fruit buds though, so maybe I'll get to try a few this year. I'm also adding Opal and Geneva Mirabelle this coming spring.

I've been growing many varieties of E. plums in southeast NY for about 25 years now in various orchards. These include my own orchard and many others that I install from trees I grow in my bearing age fruit tree nursery.

One of my best clients was born and raised in England and had fond memories of picking Victoria plums, so among the scores of other trees I installed in his extensive orchard, including many other plums, are 3 Victorias on Citation rootstock.

The good thing about this plum is that it always bears fruit- lots of it and the plums are beautiful, but they are only of fair quality and not very distinctive.

Of the plums you mention, Italian would probably be your best bet if you are looking for excellent fruit both for eating off the tree and culinary purposes.

The problem with it here is that it can be a light bearing variety, although at the right site, it seems to be adequately productive and reliable. It is reasonably resistant to black-knot and a naturally fairly dwarf tree on Myro. It has relatively small fruit.

You will always be able to graft other varieties on whatever you buy anyway, so you don't have to agonize too much if you can't find exactly what you want.

I re-read my statement before posting and it's my bad as I wasn't really clear. I like Euro plums, heck I like prunes! I just don't have any interest in growing them, same with apples which I love apples. Too much work, too long a wait. I will grow apples in a few years. I have not done my homework on Euro plums or apples to really comment on them. All I meant. I wll get to them, but still working on peaches, Jap. plums and cherries.
Glad you guys talked about them, as I'm not informed enough. I think a newbie would be better off starting with Jap. plums? Maybe I'm wrong? As in many ways I too am a newbie to fruit trees. i have a lot to learn.
I do have a question. Are euro plums and Jap. plums very compatible? Same rootstocks, graft unto each other? Pollinate each other?

Drew,

Jap. plums and Euro. plums are generally compatible w/ the same rootstocks, but will not pollenize one another. Myrobolan is a common rootstock for both plums. Peach rootstock is also compatible with both. I've used peach rootstock for my grafts with Euro plums.

I prefer Euro. plums in my area, as they bloom later here. Also my experience with Asian plums (as a general rule, but not absolute) is that they have more tart skin and are more clingstone. In my area Euros are far superior. Saying that, there are reports on this forum of some fantastic Asian plums.

My stanley has been very slow to mature and fruit. It took about 6 years before I got any fruit. Is this typical of all euro plums?

No doubt eventually I'll have to grow them! Thanks for the info!

Since Euro plums flower about a week later they can escape night frost kill! On top of that, pretty well all are self fruit full,.on Asian plums most or all need cross pollination.

Japanese type plums are more precocious, excepting Elephant Heart and maybe some I haven't grown, bearing fruit as much as 3 years sooner than some Euros. As mentioned, E's flower later and even beyond that, tend to be more cold hardy, some quite so, such as Mt.Royal, which is said to be grown in Z4.

The hardiest J. plums I know are Shiro and Methely and apparently Earli Magic which is hard to find unless you get some wood from me. I like it much better than Shiro or Methely. I'm on the cold edge of Z6 and Santa Rosa suffers some cambium injury here.

E plums are pestered here by aphids and leaf hoppers, which may be at least one reason that they do not tend to bear as consistently as most J. plum varieties. Trees can be weakened by these pests considerably but some varieties suffer more from them than others.

Stanley is the worst quality E. plum I've ever grown because it doesn't really ripen its fruit. The fruit drops from the tree while it is still tart and green. Most Italian types will hold their fruit until it turns into prunes if the weather is dry enough. Ripened to a rich amber colored flesh, these, and other good quality E. plums have a quality of syrupy and sweet richness that is quite distinctive from J. plums.

If you can grow both it is well worth the effort, they are like different fruit and both are wonderful when allowed to ripen fully. The later E. plums can ripen into fall as they seem to function in cooler weather better than J types. It is wonderful to be able to pick perfect plums in Oct. Some J. plums can provide me fruit in early July.

This post was edited by harvestman on Sat, Feb 7, 15 at 14:01

I find Marianna 2624 to be an ambitious rootstock that will sucker profusely when matched with a slow growing plum. I have to trim suckers off my Stanley all summer long. One year a couple suckers overtook the young Stanley when I was away for the summer. They were so big I had to cut them off with a saw. On the other hand, my fast growing apricot was on the same rootstock and it only suckered a couple times in 5 years.

All good info, thanks, I'll add some from my research, wild American plum has been crossed with J. plums and they are hardy from what I can tell. Toka, sometimes called bubblegum, and pipestone out of the MN breeding program. Black ice is supposed to be hardy but is not doing well in colder places.
I would also like to add that my 4 in 1 pluot faced -14 F and three more nights of -10 or colder with no damage whatsoever to the tree,
Well the fruit buds, but the tree itself is fine. It looks like it will bear fruit this spring. This winter was not as cold, or hasn't been so far. I know it has actually been warm in the west and western midwest, but here in MI the winter has been very typical, cold, but not extremely cold. Perfect for stone fruits. The MI crop is going to be huge this year!
Thinning is going to be very important this year, since many trees did not bear any fruit last year.

Before the 2013 winter in the fall I planted a Weeping Santa Rosa, and then we had the coldest winter in my lifetime. The tree was damaged a lot, and faced a bad winter for it's first winter. It survived, but I'm going to pull it in the spring and put another in. I think it can survive here if I can at least get it established.
Adding Nadia the plum-cherry interspecific cross, and cherries are hardy, so it should be fine here. This may turn out to be a very important tree for my area, Giving excellent plum-like fruit that is tasty and one that is hardy. Only time will tell.

Again guys thanks so much for the info. I know we often repeat stuff, but we should! Just to keep us up to date on any changes of new knowledge.
I hope to add a lot more myself as time goes by. I can say the info about the pluots doing well in the cold, is good info! At least one factor we don't have to worry about! Many other hurtles for this fruit, but it does seem some will grow well here.
Raintree has a mess of Euro plums I never heard much about and what about Mirabelle plums or Gage plums?
Raintree has 7 different Gage plums!

I grow Green Gage and Oullins, a nice early gage type. I don't find them very consistently productive and Oullins suffers a lot from the before mentioned leaf suckers here which may be the problem. The fruiting shoots really get the life sucked out of them if I don't spray often through much of summer. Both varieties fair poorly when rain arrives shortly before harvest. Crackers.

I've never grown any of those AmericanXAsian cold hardy types because I don't need to, although someone else installed a single one of them on a site I manage, but it was never healthy and finally died.

Santa Rosa does seem to suffer from real cold here but I still grow it for its uniquely flavored fruit. The two trees in my orchard have significant cambium injury but soldier on. Most J. varieties seem to do fine in our weather.

Thanks again, yeah if my Santa Rosa fails I'll replace it with weeping mulberry. It is just as much for ornamental reasons this spot I have it in. I want a weeping edible tree there.
Once my satsuma is established I will graft other J plums unto it. Well also bubblegum will be added as a scion.

Wow! Thanks harvestman, bob_z6, Drew, olpea and rock farmer for both asking good questions and supplying useful information.

Quick question: How does the European Plum Autumn Sweet on Myro (there might be one left in stock that I've found) compare to Italian Plum on peach stock?

Also, would Santa Rosa self-pollinate well enough to get decent fruit? If I went with an Asian at this point, my main motivation is earlier fruit, but I'd want that to be fruit I'd actually want. If I bought the tree with two grafted varieties from Stark Brothers (link below), will it set me back years because it will likely be tiny? Any experience there? It's not bare root. It's one they sell in these little pots...

Also, Drew: Very interesting learning about Paul Friday from Michigan. He has A LOT of varieties of peaches that I've been looking through. That's also very cool that Red Haven was developed in Michigan.

As for apples, I'd love something disease resistant, but productive and tasty. Thoughts on Liberty, Enterprise or Winesap?

Here is a link that might be useful: grafted Stark Brothers plum tree

This post was edited by CuriousHomeOwner on Sat, Feb 7, 15 at 11:59

Many of Friday's peaches are just OK, some are really good. The best are 7a,8, 13, and 24c IMHO. Based on reports of others. I'm sure others are decent.
On the stark tree it will grow as fast as a non-grafted tree. But Shiro is just average, very sweet, pretty! Not much flavor. Some really like it and it is a really good grower here.
The other plum I know nothing about.
Santa Rosa is somewhat self fertile, but will do better with another plum, but you could use it alone.. What you could do is down the road graft another plum unto the tree yourself. I can give you wood to try. Many others here too that are very generous with scion.
Spring Satin would be another good choice, but you would need another tree for pollination.
It may be worth trying the grafted tree, as I bet it would do well. And if you really do not like the fruit, you could graft another cultivar unto the tree.
Look at the grow guides as to what to expect you will have to do. Also watch those videos or some of them about pruning. The ones I linked to above.

You need to know how to develop scaffolds. You want to grow as open center trees. The videos will explain some.

For here, getting the right combination for pollination on the Asian plums can be very frustrating for years, I'd start with a easy Euro, for your climate, a Mt. Royal or Italian for early fruit would be my Joice.

My first plum was 3-n-1 (shiro, satsuma, and santa rosa) I got from a local farm supply. Unfortunately, the santa rosa didn't survive the first winter. We had two major ice storms.

The first mistake I made was not planting the tree with shiro facing north. The second mistake was not pruning the shiro hard enough the first few years. The shiro is at least twice as vigorous as the satsuma. It was taking all the energy and space away from the satsuma.

One year I cut off a 2" branch on the shiro and 5 shuts popped out of the crotch within weeks. This variety has been so vigorous that I don't have to worry about losing branches to storms and black knot. The empty area will quickly fill in by the end of the next season. I wish the satsuma was that ambitious. It's a better tasting plum.

@ Drew: According to a list I found of peaches grown at Michigan Orchards, Red Heart is very good. Link is attached. That's why that tree appeals to me. Plus, it allows me to get plums more quickly in a small space since Asian plums supposedly produce faster and I don't have to worry about a pollenizer. Maybe then I could cut out some backyard vegetation and put some other stuff in next year :) At some point, I think it would be really fun to attempt to add other varieties on, but for now I just need to get something in the ground, of course :) Thanks.

@ konrad: Have you eaten the fruit from Mount Royal? How is it? Are Euros easier? Several people have talked about black rot problems. Do you mean that I'm less likely to have the blossoms freeze and more likely to ripen fruit before freeze or why else would they be easier?

@ harvestman: If I do get a European this year, I'm getting Italian Prune or Autumn Sweet. I read that Autumn Sweet is supposed to be an improved (produces more, tastier) version of Italian Prune. Do you or any others have experience with that one?

Thanks everyone. I hope to make a final decision soon and am really starting to narrow it down, which is good.

Here is a link that might be useful: Description of Michigan peaches

@ konrad: Oh, I just re-read what you said about pollination -- so, not just any two Asian plums, will cross-pollinate? Hmmm. If I started with Italian Prune, could I graft on both European and Japanese plums later on?

Mt. Royal is pretty good,..but only semi freestone. [picture]
Most Asian are not free stone and a pain for processing.
It depends on your climate, like HM said, Euro can be more of a problem with pest disease etc. when you have lots of moisture, here it's dry no problem and ripen in my short climate. As said, Euro are easier here because you have no worries about pollination since they're self fertile.

The green yellow is Green Gage on the same tree. I also had Stanly on the same tree and had fruits..it died out now, most likely due to a very cold winter.

@ konrad: Oh, I just re-read what you said about pollination -- so, not just any two Asian plums, will cross-pollinate? Hmmm. If I started with Italian Prune, could I graft on both European and Japanese plums later on?

I grow Autumn Sweet and it is a good quality plum but so far not heavier bearing here than Italian. It also has a much more upright growth habit, which is not a good thing.

I've only 3 seasons with it in bearing so I need more time to really judge it, but it seems fewer nurseries are carrying it which is a bad sign (although Earli Magic has not been picked up since Hilltop stopped selling it and its a great plum from my experience). For a new commercial variety it is surprisingly small- similar to Italian.

I should have written Earli Majic instead of Summer Majic.

Drew, if I was to start with a mother J plum in your climate I'd probably pick Shiro over Satsuma, even though Sat is a much better flavored plum IMO. Shiro is probably hardier and certainly has a better growth habit. Shiro has survived -20 here- Satsuma has shown some cambium damage at about -10 (if it was winter lows that caused it). It also gets more bacterial spot. Shiro is more or less bullet proof besides black knot.

Right,..not any Asian with pollinate each other, sure, you can graft both onto Euro later.

Thanks Hman, sounds like a good idea to me too. Plus Shira is a very cool looking plum, so yellow, very beautiful.

Drew, I'm a sucker for the deep red fleshed ones, but for beauty, nothing in the fruit kingdom catches the eyes more than a bowl of a wide range of J and E plums. Green, yellow, blue, purple, red and almost black from perfect spheres to extra jumbo eggs. Damn, when will summer come!

I've been trudging every working day with a ladder through up to 2' of fresh snow. 3 weeks ago I would have guessed we'd get off light this winter. Now I pray my body is up to this. No thaws in the long term forecast. I'd like about 4 days of the weather Kansas looks to be getting (for much too long). Alaska has been unusually toasty as well.

Konrad, your grafted plum tree is beautiful. I think I want to give grafting a try. What kind of grafting do you use?

With that idea in mind -- along with your, harvestman's and several others' recommendations I went ahead and bought the Italian Prune plum tree from Grandpa's Orchard. I also bought a Honeycrisp apple (yum) and took Drew's suggestion and bought the Flamin' Fury PF 24-c. I liked the idea that that peach might be more cold hardy than a Red Haven (might be useful with our crazy weather - 14 inches of snow just on Sunday) and thought it would be fun to try. Thanks, Drew.

I also noticed that Grandpa's Orchard sells a Tina bud grafting knife (used) with two kinds of budding tape for $25 for those who would like to try it out. Would that type of grafting be useful for adding on other varieties? How hard is it to learn? Is the special knife worth it or can you just use any old pocket knife :)

Thanks everyone.

We just talked about grafting, look through the threads in this forum. Lot's of threads on grafting. Some great info in them.

>>What kind of grafting do you use? see link

Here is a link that might be useful: Konrad's modified bark grafting

The easiest graft is a splice made to a vigorous annual shoot that can later either be spread to near horizontal to create a branch or, if it is a very upright shoot connected low enough on the trunk, to eventually replace the entire tree above the graft.

However there are many other ways to graft that don't require a great deal of skill and are easily learned from Youtube videos freely available.

Different folks have different opinions about the best way to graft and the only methods I've ever tried are the cleft and the splice. The splice is so easy, quick and affective I haven't bothered using any other graft besides the cleft when I need to graft on thick wood. I'm beginning to think a bark graft might be better for that.

You don't need a grafting knife for any graft but for some it can be useful, but hold off on the purchase, that is not a very good offer anyway.

A splice graft can be accomplished with any good pruning shear although I use a special double bladed one for the purpose that I've only seen supplied by AMLEO.COM. It is manufactured in Italy. I had good success before I found this tool just using a high quality standard hook and blade bypass hand pruner.

You have lots of time to learn about grafting because you need to wait until the tree is established and growing vigorously before you begin the process. Figure spring of 2016 at the earliest.

Plums should be grafted well after the mother tree begins growth in your zone, judging from my experience, others suggest warm weather needs to follow the grafting for best results as well.

Apples and pear grafts grow more quickly if grafted just before or after first signs of growth but early stonefruit grafts tend to dry out before having time to heal if you graft them before they leaf out.

I myself don't think pollination of Asian plums is a big deal. They pollinate each other well. I never heard of many problems at all. On grafting Konrad is good, for regular people see this thread!

Here is a link that might be useful: grafting peaches

I checked the bark grafting video- man that is way to complicated for me to bother with in spring. It would take at least a half hour per branch using his methods until you'd done quite a few. I also fail to see what would stop that label being blown off in the first wind.

Anyway, if your life isn't too complicated in the spring it looks like a fun and effective method but a beginner can do a splice in 5 minutes. There is usually smaller wood to put grafts where you need them.

That's a horrible bark graft in this video, he has only one cut on the scion and shoves it under the bark, stock bark laying on top of the bark on scion, making poor cambium contact, 2 more cuts on scion is needed, on each side, lengthways to expose cambium, making better contact when sliding under, I bet, if you do this, you gain about another 40% success rate.

It is also a poor Joice doing bark graft on heavier stock, splice would be allot better.

Here the same tree from the other side.

Konrad, you are the graftmaster on this site as far as I'm concerned. Why not post your pictorial of step by step here you provided in the past.

Of course, I still think the splice is easier.

milan eh ...

kapnick also sells extra stock trees in spring ... i have no idea what the understock etc is ...

seriously .. in winter.. these peeps can be lonely ... lol .. just call .... most garden peeps are helpful and friendly ... sorta like GW ...

you might also try that one in ypsi-tucky ... weirds or some such ....

the point is ... there are all kinds of fancy foo foo types ... and they might be quite a challenge for the usual homeowner ... i dont know if you want to take it to the extreme the peeps here do .... but if you want to dabble.. dabble with things that other locals easily grow ...

an aside... on my backroads trips to livonia.. we take ridge out east.. rolling thru the 4 way stop in the megatropolis of mooreville ... i always turn east or left ... how far is milan .. if i just went straight????

ken

Ken, I am a local and advised him! He picked a tree developed here, you can't get much more local than that.
He is buying them from Grandpa's you know the nursery in MI. If Grandpa sells it, it grows here. Besides being rated top 5 for hardy fruit trees. And with enough skill you can grow anything. I have 40 year old cactus plants, some are even planted outside. As many grow here, about 45 -50 cacti can grow here all year round outside. I know my local plants. All the same I grow plants from every continent. Sounds impressive but really isn't, it's easy.

Cool tree Konrad. And you live in zone 3, us zone 6er's shouldn't be complaining!

i missed your points drew ... good work ...

but nothing down here in rural toledo is z6 .. so i suspect you are up Detroit way ...

when i moved from livonia to adrian .. i was shocked at the difference between suburban z5 and rural z5 ...

i never lost flowers in suburbia to a late frost or freeze ... out here... 50 /50 chance ... or even winter flower kill ...

i have always suspected.. suburban concrete and asphalt retains day heat.. and eases night temp falls ... in spring ....

its all about micro climates ....

ken