Please Critique My Lighting Plan!! (Line Item Quote Included!)

9 years ago

GW,

I recently posted a thread in this forum discussing the updates in LED & Recessed Lighting by the title: "Has Anything Changed In Recessed LED Since 2012"

Link: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/lighting/msg0120373313028.html?19

In that thread I mentioned I would post my Lighting Schematic (Proposal) once I had received and I finally have. I want to get this right so I brought it here for forum feedback. (Plus I didn't want to side-track the other thread by posting this - as I'd like this thread to be a stand-alone resource for those who are presented with this situation in the future).

That being said I'll post the proposed lighting schematic drawn by the electrician after an initial walk-through last week as well as his line item quote for your feedback.

A little bit about the house: 3100 sq ft, 4 Bed, 3.5 Bath, traditional style house on 3 above grade levels. Think White kitchen, dark hardwoods, lots of gray/white color scheme with marble, and lots of woodwork and trim. (Coiffured ceilings, wainscoting, etc.)

The recessed cans will primarily be 4" and he buys most of his supplies at Home Depot.

After some great advice from David Tay and several others I am now planning on integrating the Lutron RadioRA2 wireless system into his electrical plans so feedback on that is welcome as well.

So - Here Are The Plans:
First Floor:
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Second Floor:

Third Floor:
{{gwi:2135501}}

Finally - The Line Item Quote:
{{gwi:2135502}}

So - My questions are:

#1 - What would you change as far as lighting placement goes? I'm mostly interested in the recessed cans positioning, especially considering I plan on using 4" housings & LED retrofit kits. (Either Feit 2700K enhance or CREE kits)

#2 - Do the electrical output placements look correct? My architect just put those on there so I have no clue if they make sense / are enough, not enough, etc.?

#3 - He doesn't seem that experienced with under-cabinet lighting? His price seems high and I'd rather decide the LED light strip products he uses (With feedback from here)

#4 - I have access to the Lutron RadioRA2 system/equip. - how do I best plan out a whole house set-up and make sure he installs the correct dimmers, etc. instead of Home Depot specials?

#5 - Is 60Amp service to a 4 car garage enough? Especially if I plan on having a 4 post lift and doing some work out there?

#6 - I plan on having a 22kw Generac Generator (Natural Gas) installed - what should I expect to see my electrician charge me for the panel install, etc.?

I'm sure there are plenty of other questions I should be asking so please feel free to comment on all aspects. Thanks in advance! ...

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Comments (10)

David
9 years ago
Some comments
Lots of recessed lighting. Could you utilize surface mounts or glimpse type disc lights?

If you're using FrontPoint, you could eliminate all the smoke and CO detectors from the line item code.

If your electrician is more comfortable with line voltage, use line voltage strips (for cove lighting as well) such as the MaxLite or eW Profile.

If you intend to use RadioRA2, you'd need to figure out if you need a repeater, get all the necessary dimmers (RRD-6NA is an adaptive phase dimmer) and specify which locations they go into. You will not need multi-way wiring.

It looks like you'll have more than 1 panel + cutoff switch
ontariomom
9 years ago
Andrew,

It is a bit hard to read your plan. It seems you have a great deal of recessed lights -- quite similar to the way we initially agreed to wire our home. We are now going to the trouble and cost to change out some of our rough-in recessed lights to fixtures and eliminating others. So our initial plan that we are unhappy with, looked a lot like what you have drawn -- sorry.

On the plus side, your quote seems very reasonable. We paid tons more to have our rough-in done (we are in Canada where everything costs more),.

You might want to try to redraw the plan or enlarge it and consider posting it on the home decorating forum as well as this one.

Do you have any sconces, or ceiling lights that offer up lighting to balance all the down lights you show (sorry I can't read the plan well enough to tell).

I have linked some videos on lighting design from Randall Whitehead

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Lighting design videos
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Ok so I've thought a lot about it and made some changes. I changed the kitchen quite a bit but it cost me a window. The room will have a lot of windows so I think it's ok? I moved the cooktop off the peninsula and put it on the wall, moving the sink to the 12'x4' peninsula. We prep by the sink so it makes sense I guess, we won't have our backs to everything. I'll just have to work a little harder at keeping the sink area clean and clutter free. The stove is now up against the garage wall, will this make venting difficult? Based on a suggestion in the kitchen forum I moved the door to the pantry/laundry room down so that the pantry cupboards are part of the kitchen now and the laundry room is it's own room. I'm not 100% convinced yet but it's growing on me. Since I don't have a window in the kitchen now there's no reason not to have the garage on that side so now the garage entrance is where you all wanted it :) It's a long garage so there's plenty of room at the end for a bench/closet/etc.. or even a bonafide 'mudroom'. And moving the garage allows me to add another window to the dining/office room at the front of the house. Upstairs I made quite a few changes as well, I wasn't really happy with the bathroom situation, the kids bathroom was much bigger than the master bathroom and there was no room for a tub in the master. I've moved things around a lot, one of the bedrooms got a little smaller but both bathrooms are much roomier now. The master closet is also quite big (too big?). I couldn't figure out a way to make the bathrooms bigger without sacrificing the size of one of the rooms but frankly, they're the kids rooms and they don't need a whole lot of room. By moving the master bathroom though I don't have all my plumbing stacked in one corner anymore and it's actually right over the open part of the first floor, will this mean i'll need a bulkhead for the drains or is there a way around that? Well let me know what you think, I always appreciate the feedback! Thanks PS. What is the standard overhang for a kitchen counter bench to comfortable accomodate seating?
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I understand what you are trying to do with the 4 foot increments; however in real life they mostly don't work out that way because you have to account for the dimensions of the layers, such as drywall, finish trim, siding/brick/stone, etc. So it's important not to go OVER your increment, but it's very likely you will go slightly under most places, or else you will end up with slightly over on external surfaces. If you are planning for certain siding lengths on the exterior then this can put you into small pieces, etc. On the interior: depending on how you cover your windows, there may be space lost due to window coverings out into the room. For example, if you use curtains (and curtains are an energy saving layer at night when drawn during cold weather), they typically use up at least six inches into the room off the wall. So a window over a dresser will use up your dresser top with curtain overhang, etc. Or if the curtains go to the floor then you would have to pull your dresser out 6-8 inches from the wall. Likewise for the desk in your second bedroom. Don't forget this same concept with your barn door, too. You will have to pull furniture out 6-9 inches for the door to clear behind any furniture pieces. Right now you have furniture pieces in the track of your barn door, in the drawing. It's also very awkward to have a piece of furniture partially covered by a window, as it looks your master night stands will be. Much better to have pure wall behind them, or all window, but not in between - it will not look right visually. Remember that your birdseye view shows only the window width. You then have to visually account for more width due to casing/trim and then a few more inches still if you hang curtains and have the rod wider than the casing. Allow about six inches between the bed and a night stand, too. That six inch gap is the perfect place for an outlet bedside. But you also just need it for space. If you have a seating corner in the master bedroom, you will likely sometimes read while sitting there. Therefore you need real estate to put a desk lamp or floor lamp, for lighting. Next up to think about: lighting (and where the controls will be) for the dining and living rooms. This is more of a challenge than it first looks, because you need most your light coming from above in this over-sized single space. Normally you get a good chunk of light bounced off the walls in smaller rooms, but in the case of huge rooms then your light has to come from above and be adequate without being piercing to the eyes. You'll want at least two carefully placed floor outlets in the living room. You'll want to locate your dining table light fixture carefully so it ends up over the table correctly. We did a chandelier type fixture centered over the table, and then two down pointing cans, one on either side of the chandelier. In our case, the chandelier has frosted type glass and the bulbs in the glass pointing UP. It does a great job of washing the ceiling with light, but the table is muffled and rather dark. So we needed down light as well to increase the intensity of light on the table, which you want so you can see well when you are eating, and to highlight table decor. One thing you can do in the living room is plan wall sconces along the available walls that will wash the walls with light both upwards and downwards. Another approach is to place some ceiling can lights near walls, such that their light cones then hit and wash down the wall (if you don't want to have sconces on the walls) Otherwise the room will tend to look dark during non daylight times. Don't underestimate how lit walls will make the atmosphere inviting and cheerful, whereas non-lit walls, even with good ceiling light, tend to make a space dreary. Another great option is to use carefully planned LED strips up against the wall or ceiling, to make a light wash, similar to above cabinet lighting. These concepts do not have to be expensive to do or energy hogs, either, if done carefully. In our bedrooms we used wall mounted two x 4 foot fluorescent t8 fixtures, mounted horizontally on the wall up high. We then put up a curtain rod and valence/cornice to cover the fixture. Light washes the wall and ceiling from the top bulb, and washes down the wall from the bottom bulb, but does NOT glare into your eyes, due to the valence/cornice. Very cheap to do, very inexpensive energy-wise for the amount of light you get, very cheap parts to replace. Lighting is one area where you can EAT IT in your budget if you don't plan carefully, both in buying fixtures and in energy consumption. The three big challenges of "open concept" spaces are furniture placement in the absence of walls, lighting, and electrical outlet placement. (With a two story house you have another: infrastructure placement such as heating ducts and plumbing lines to reach the second floor, but this doesn't apply in your one-story house case.) Don't forget there are in-between models, too, to open concept. Half walls maintain the visual feel of open concept, but also allow for furniture placement against a (half) wall and outlets placed in (half) walls. One thing we did was put cased openings (like glassless windows between rooms) in the wall between our den and dining room. This was intermediate between a wall and open concept. It gave us the wall space we needed for furniture placement and in-wall infrastructure (ducts, etc.) but still gave visual sense of openness between the two rooms. It was a great balance for us. I'm not seeing glaring wasted space. There are a few pockets of space that are just... space. Like the chunk outside the entrance door to the master bathroom. There's a chunk in the guest bedroom. You'll want to trim the size of the shower in the master back into that niche and not bring it the whole size of the niche. This will cost much less to build, be MUCH more friendly to clean and maintain, and give you a chunk of "in-niche" space outside the shower where you can have your ceiling ventilation fan mounted (in our case we mounted two heat lamps on either side of the fan in that niche, but they are on separate control so we don't burn energy using them unless we are chilled). You have very generous spaces in general but not that much wasted space; part of it will be how you use the space and arrange stuff in it. One more thought: if you are a pet person, then plan for real estate for feeding, food storage, bed/crate, toy storage, litter box, etc. And a cabinet or drawer for pet related stuff (grooming brushes, treats, etc.) This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Wed, Jul 30, 14 at 22:59
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X-Post - Please Critique My Lighting Plan!
Q
Comments (8)
Sorry guys & girls - was away for a few days and just now catching up. Renovator8 - the lighting will be 4" recessed cans with the newest model of Feit retrofit kits (My research confirmed this new model has surpassed the CREE CR4's I was originally planned on using). 94+ CRI, 2700K light color - and CostCo rebranded a ton of them and is currently offering them at 1/2 price of what they sell for in Home Depot. (Identical model # and everything) Casey - Thanks for the comment as the coiffured ceilings were one of "my things" I had to have. I get my coiffured ceilings in the living/library and she gets her Victoria + Albert freestanding soaking tub with chandelier in the marble bathroom so I think it was a fair trade... Regardless, a lot of this wouldn't have been done if I wasn't in the real estate industry and was paying "retail prices" as a buyer with no control over the build process. (It's amazing some of the markups). Carol - we do have an "idea" of a layout for the Great Room and that's a good idea, i'll figure out a way to post it and see what feedback I get. Great suggestions on the curtains as well. Thanks - I hope these threads are helping you as much as they are me as we both go through this process! Andrew
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X-Post - Please Critique My Lighting Plan!
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Comments (9)
I just checked my lighting plan done by a lighting designer. For the fireplace, she advised two low voltage can lights (not sure the size -- I will have to double check) but likely 3 or 4 inch size). She positioned them 30 inches from the back of the fireplace stone wall. She wants them to have an elbow arm on them. We will also have a pair of sconces above the mantel (the sconces will flank a painting). All other can lights I believe (not including kitchen) are to be gimbel style line voltage (probably with LED bulbs in reg can housing). The can lights are to be set about 24 inches away from the walls with the intention of directing the light off a wall and providing indirect light bounced off a wall (it will also light any art on that wall). No downward directed can lights will be used in main rooms (except kitchen). The kitchen can lights are a bit different. They were recommended to be set 10 inches in from the edge of the counter (we don't have many uppers though). We have replaced many can light in the original plan with fixtures or sconces. Carol
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ontariomom
9 years ago
Hi again,

I really hope you will consider cross-posting your plan on the home decorating forum and/or the building a home forum. There are lots of experts there who can comment.on how well your plan meets the goal of layered lighting. They may not address your more technical questions though (controls, amps, etc), which are best suited here or there may be another tech based forum for those questions. There are also a few architects and designers (vilcarter, Renovator8, Live_Wire_Oak, Pal, and others) who hang out on the building a new home forum -- who might very well make very valuable comments. So cross- posting the non technical questions on both the building a home forum and home decorating might yield you some valuable input.

Can you make the plan any bigger as well? It is hard to tell if you have sconces in the great room or not. Have you stated how high your ceilings are?

I hope you get the comments you are seeking. It is a hard stage of construction to make decisions on.

Carol
Andrew K.
Original Author
9 years ago
Carol - working on cross posts now. Thanks for the advice. I'm trying to find a way to make the pictures bigger but because all my .pdf's have to be converted to .jpegs and then uploaded to Flickr to post on here it shrinks everything down in size. Wish I could post .pdfs and I'd put the whole house plans up. Thanks & stay tuned - other posts should be up in a minute.

Andrew
ontariomom
9 years ago
A few have tried actually photographing their plans with a camera in sections because they had the same issue as you are having. Hope something works.

The other tech forum I was thinking about for the more tech questions in your posts was the entertainment forum. Maybe they would have some answers.

Carol
ontariomom
9 years ago
I see your other posts now, and they are clearer. You should get some responses on those more active forums, but you won't get as many on lighting topics as other topics. There seems to be less people who comment on lighting design -- maybe due to complexity. I just read one designer I follow (Maria Killam) predict that in 2015 recessed lights will be out of favour. Who knows if she will prove to be correct or not, but it was an interesting prediction. Not sure trends are important, but I have linked her article.

I would strongly advise some sconces in your plan -- they offer such nice mood lighting. The cove lighting you wrote about using in the great room (?) will be nice. Does your master bedroom have a centered fixture (could not see if the light in the centre had an R for recessed or not).

I posted these comments here rather than the other forums because I wanted to keep your new posts at the top in hopes someone with expertise (Not Me) would comment.

Have you tried bringing your lighting plan to a nice lighting store. Often they have lighting experts on staff who will help you tweak your plan (call to find out when the most experienced lighting designer is in).

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Pot lights and Trend Forcast
David
9 years ago
First floor -
1. Possible to use linear cove lighting or surface mount disc lights for the covered porch next to the kitchen instead of recessed cans if the area will not be used for any extensive reading at night?
2. Wash room besides mud room - just use sconces?
3. Mud room - surface mounts?

Notes on RadioRA2/ HA
1. Plan to have a structured wiring media box tucked away in a closet where you have all the necessary ethernet lines and internet service router terminated.
2. For RadioRA2 to work with FrontPoint, the main repeater needs to be connected via ethernet to your internet router.
3. Plan on having ethernet jacks in some rooms as Wifi coverage will be challenging.
Andrew K.
Original Author
9 years ago
Carol - thanks again for the feedback. I have made some changes and I'll note them below. Every time I look at the plan I end up removing cans and subbing out with other items. I will note that every can minus the outdoor lighting are 4" cans rather than dated looking 6" cans. (See below for update comments)

David - I never thought about that but that is a good suggestion. The ceiling will be a stained beadboard.

-I am not familiar with surface mount disc lighting or how good the technology is (I've spent all my time researching recessed and the best retrofit kits). Could you please give me a quick and dirty of the best surface mount lighting available? (Product links would be helpful as well).

-Yep - good call. Wash room is now 2 sconces and no recessed lights.

-That's a good idea on the surface mounts for mud room

- If you could please either link me to some info on them, etc. I will take them into consideration.

-David - noted on the wi-fi issues. I'm thinking of making a central control tower in the basement for all/most media equip (same idea the Control4 guys pitched me).

Some Miscellaneous Lighting Updates:
#1. 1st Floor Wash room only has 2 sconces now
#2. Dining room is only planned to have a rectangular lighting fixture hanging over dining room table for mood lighting
#3. Fixture in Foyer now and removed cans over stairs and lining steps with sconces at top/bottom of each stairway.
#4. Cans are removed from all 2nd floor bathrooms (minus water closet can) and sconces are going to be used in both master bath & guest bath (2 per vanity in master, 3 for double vanity in guest).
#5. Backside of watercloset is a make-up vanity and will use mirror with in-mirror lighting
#6. 3rd floor bath removed can, went with 2 sconces and a light in the shower.

Thanks again for your help everyone. I think this is really starting to come along well!

Andrew
David
9 years ago
Following are links for surface mount led lights
http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/indoor-luminaires/surface-mounted/celino-led-bcs680-c#filters=

The disc lights are intended as either an easy substitute for recessed lighting where a traditional can cannot fit or is too expensive. Vendors include Halo, Sylvania and Lighting Science
http://www.polar-ray.com/residential-56/led-recessed-lighting/led-surface-mount-downlights.html

In addition to lighting, it would be wise to consider structured wiring for data distribution throughout the house using ethernet for
1. Video surveillance
2. WiFi APs
3. AV distribution
4. Wired internet access

The size of the media center depends on the number of ethernet drop points, ethernet switch(es) - managed or un-managed, POE or not.
Number of telephone lines.
ontariomom
9 years ago
Great advice from Davidtay. One day I will need to get my head around low voltage wiring, controls, etc.

Looks like my advice to post the lighting plan on the other forums has not yielded many comments.

This weekend, I will look through the plans the lighting designer worked out for our home (the plan to reduce the can lights and layer light better) and I will see what tips she passed to along to us that might apply to your job.

What day are your electricians coming back?

Carol

Please Critique My Lighting Plan!! (Line Item Quote Included!)

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