Converting sugar in recipes is really hard and not to be done casually.

Better idea. If the recipe calls for granulated, measure that out, then put it in a food processor or blender or something and whirr it around. It won't be as even as superfine, like for dusting, but should be good enough to cream for a cake or whatever you're making.

Confectioners sugar is powdered sugar. Also called icing sugar. Not a substitute for granulated sugar.

Berry Sugar, Fruit Sugar and Caster sugar are all fine granulated sugars. You can substitute these for regular granulated.

~Ann

"Converting sugar in recipes is really hard and not to be done casually. "

Can you offer some discussion as to why?

"Confectioners sugar is powdered sugar. Also called icing sugar. Not a substitute for granulated sugar. "

Can you enlighten us as to why? I don't seem to have a problem but then maybe my recipes are not all that critical. After all, I don't usually weigh my ingredients. (-:

If you can make the substitution by eye, and have it come out, by all means do it. I've never heard of it though. Confectioner's sugar doesn't measure or behave like granulated sugar in baking. There are some tricks for making do, but that's usually for items that are hard to wreck. You can also, theoretically, melt confectioner's sugar and crystallize it, but that's a messy job and harder than it sounds to do right. And it takes a long time for the crystals to set.

You can substitute superfine for granulated by weight, but if you don't weigh your ingredients, I'm not sure how you do that accurately. As I said above, you can measure your granulated and turn it into superfine by cutting it up.

Considering that you started out concerned with the quality of the creaming of the butter and sugar, I'm surprised that you don't really care about the quantity or liquidity of the sugar.

Creaming is about aerating. You don't need to pulverize the sugar. So long as you get plenty of air beaten into the mixture, it'll be fine. Part of the science of a cake (or cookie or whatever) is where the sugar liquifies, which it does in the heat. Granulated will do it and do its thing, just like superfine, even if your creamed mixture seems grainy.

If you're making a recipe you've never done before, especially, most especially for baking, and more especially if it's meant to be a cake, please be careful of your ingredients and proportions. You'll probably get a cake no matter what, but you'll only get that cake if you make it right.

Confectioner's Sugar has an anti-caking agent that changes its baking properties compared to granulated.

You don't have to get all the granulated sugar gone when you are creaming them - just get it well-mixed and fluffy.

Confectioners weighs much less because it's fluffier. If your recipe calls for a cup of granulated, you have to use 1 3/4 cup of confectioners. Confectioners doesn't tenderize or aerate. And it has cornstarch in it.

Not all confectioner's sugar has cornstarch. It'll say on the label.

But it is still powdered, and not granulated. I would never sub powdered sugar for granulated.

I wouldn't hesitate to substitute superfine or berry/fruit/caster sugar for regular granulated sugar.

~Ann

"But it is still powdered, and not granulated. I would never sub powdered sugar for granulated. "

Not doing out of principle is one thing but not doing out of experience or knowledge is something totally different. I guess I am far more open to the experience of something new than others. Until I know why to not substitute, I will continue to experiment.

Granted, a pound cake is not all that fragile but when I used confectioners sugar instead, it turned out to have a much more tight and firm texture than I have ever made. Granted, I doubt it would make a good light Devils Food cake, but I would welcome discovering something new.

Come to think of it, rather than the confectioner's sugar making the difference, I wonder if it was the cornstarch that did it. Hmmm, now I am going to have to make two more cakes to test all this...

This post was edited by Emerogork2 on Thu, Dec 25, 14 at 17:25

"Creaming is about aerating. You don't need to pulverize the sugar. "

I guess I have read so many recipes that claim that you have to whip until the sugar IS pulverized. I usually go until I give up and "That's good enough even if it is still grainy". Of course they usually work anyway.

I speak from 40 years experience. But hey don't take my word for it. Confectioners sugar and granulated sugar have different purposes.

Here is what Domino Sugar has to say about it:

Q. Can confectioners sugar be substituted for granulated sugar in recipes?
A. It is not recommended to substitute confectioners sugar for granulated sugar. Since confectioners sugar has a much finer texture, and it contains a small percentage of cornstarch to prevent caking, substituting can give you unexpected results.

So if you want to substitute go ahead, but your finished product will not be as good as it would be if you used what the recipe called for. If you are going to substitute use superfine or fruit sugar.

~Ann

Here is a link that might be useful: Domino Sugar

OK, if you don't believe people on this site who are great cooks and bakers, why ask the question? I think my patience is taxed because I've been baking and cooking for the last 3 days.

Use google, I'm sure you will get the same results as you have gotten from the contributors to this forum. Or as Ann has said, if you want to substitute have at it. Just don't expect great results.

You are asking the wrong question. You should be trying to figure out why you are not able to cream together butter and regular granulated sugar. It's a basic skill to have in baking.

There was an old-time recipe discussed on one of the forums here a while back - may have been the Kitchen Table forum - that called for creaming the butter and sugar for a half hour. That's some serious creaming.

I would never substitute confectioners sugar for regular. And, I have made hundreds of pound cakes starting around age 12, (using many, many different recipes to find the best) I am now 50. I prefer regular cane sugar. They turn out beautiful. The recipe proportions are more important, imo, than extra fine or regular sugar. The pound cakes with confectioners sugar are not my favorites.
It took years to find the best chocolate pound cake recipe, for instance. And I only use all butter.

LOL! Graywings, I'm guessing that recipe was from a lady who was beating it with a wooden spoon in a bowl under her arm while she was talking to two different people and getting the dinner made. :)

E2, pulverizing the sugar is not the point of creaming. Someone might have described that using her own equipment as how she figures it's done, but the point is to aerate the butter. If you do it right the air whipped into the butter and sugar mixture will make it look a lighter color. At that point the butter is no longer cool so the sugar helps to stabilize it. Otherwise it couldn't hold the air.

If you want a light cake use crystaline sugar. It will make the proper chemical reaction. It's all about the texture.

If experimenting is your thing go ahead! Then you'll know for yourself. Post pictures both of the finished cake and the cut pieces, and share your results.

Have you ever read any recipes from colonial times? They contain lines like "Use a measure of flour and some sugar" and "Bake until done".

Of course they controlled the oven temperature by a number of logs and had rarely had conventional measuring cups.

If nothing else, I look forward to experimenting whipped butter with granular or powdered sugar. It looks as if I will have to discover the affects myself.

My mother's recipes rarely have more of an instruction. You're supposed to know how to cook and bake.

Because you started off talking about creaming and superfine sugar, we thought you knew how to bake and we were answering your sugar substitution question, not giving a course. If you want to know more about the science, you could read a book. There's a lot of interesting molecular chemistry going on there.

Since you don't believe us, here are some readings for you:

Article about creaming.

Article about sugar.

"Or as Ann has said, if you want to substitute have at it. Just don't expect great results. "

I may not expect "great results" but at least I can expect different results. Is that not the mother of invention?

I really couldn't care less about getting the results described in a recipe or picture. If I wanted that, I would follow the recipe to the limits. After all, we all know that all recipes are well worded, designed and tested before they are printed and there are no reasons to test/challenge what is written by "great cooks and bakers".

It was Julia Child that said "You earn to cook so you don't have to be a slave to recipes..."

It seems to me that a while back I "learned" on ATK or Alton Brown or some such show that the point of creaming the butter was for the sugar crystals to break down the fat molecules, or something like that. If that is the case, then I wonder if powdered sugar would do the job as effectively. If that is not the case then I'd have to wonder why powdered sugar (of the non-starched variety) isn't a lot more commonly available and used. Aside from baking, most of my sugar use is in things like coffee, lemonade, brines, etc. where powdered sugar has the benefit of dissolving a lot more easily.

Well Emerogork , You came to one of the best forums to get cooking advice. So many wonderful people here who are always willing to share their experience and give advice. Apparently though you really aren't interested in any of the advice that was offered.

I agree with Graywings. Since creaming butter and sugar is rather a simple step, the problem is more apt to be your technique or equipment than the sugar you are using.

~Ann

Ok I followed some links and looked up some others. Aerating is what's going on, and the sugar helps keep it stable. But I'd still question the relatively low a availability of powdered sugar if it was better for baking.

Regardless of the science, I really think OP's issue is the expectation of what creamed butter is. It's somewhat fluffier and lighter in color. I've never seen a recipe state that the sugar should be dissolved or pulverized.

( ann_t) "I speak from 40 years experience. But hey don't take my word for it."

Well, I will see your 40 and rise you 10....

"Confectioners sugar and granulated sugar have different purposes. "

How many times are posters here going to repeat this? Not one has mentioned WHY or WHAT DIFFERENT RESULTS HAPPEN when granulated sugar is substituted with confectioners.

As I continue to experiment I will post my results but so far I see NO negative results in the very few recipes I have modified as they have all been improvements or no change at all. I will certainly post any one that fails.

Meanwhile, let me post another Julia Child quote:

"I found that the recipes in most - in all - the books I had were really not adequate. They didn't tell you enough... I won't do anything unless I'm told why I'm doing it..."

So far, no one here , including Domino, has explained a single case as to why. Sorry, but "Because I said so" is not going to hack it. Buddy couldn't Hackett either...

So,... Great Cooks and Bakers, inquisitive minds want to know...

Posted by Emerogork2 (My Page) on Thu, Dec 25, 14 at 2:17
When a recipe calls to cream butter with sugar, I can never really get it to cream if I use granulated. It seems to work much better if I use extra fine.
To what extent can I continue to use confectioner's sugar instead of granulated?

Based on your OP, you have a problem when you use regular sugar, but you can manage to cream butter and sugar if you use extra fine. But then you ask if you can continue to use confectioners sugar. So are you using extra fine granulated sugar or are you using powdered sugar/confectioners sugar?

~Ann

"Well Emerogork , You came to one of the best forums to get cooking advice. So many wonderful people here who are always willing to share their experience and give advice. Apparently though you really aren't interested in any of the advice that was offered. "

Excuse me but until these latest posts were made, there has been little or no advice given other than "Don't do it".

Maybe I need to reword the question.

If you would just clarify which sugar you are using. Are you using extra fine sugar or are you using powdered/confectioners sugar?

~Ann

Different things work for different people. Right now there's an active thread about how to get hard boiled eggs to peel easily. We've had that discussion many times, and every time people come with methods they swear work best for them. Fine, whatever works for you!

If after 50 years of baking experience you haven't mastered creaming butter and you're happy with the results you've had with subbing confectioners sugar, then what's the question?

"To what extent can I continue to use confectioner's sugar instead of granulated?"

To the extent that you're satisfied with the results. How's that? :) Among this crowd you don't need to quote Julia Child to justify going against conventional wisdom.

FOAS, that isn't how I read the original post. Emerogork2 said that he/she has trouble with granulated, but that extra fine works. Then asks if he/she can continue to use confectioners sugar.

So is Emerogork2 using extra fine or confectioners sugar? They are not the same thing.

~Ann

The confectioner's sugar pound cake results aren't particularly surprising. There are recipes that actually call for it. You said you didn't weigh your ingredients, however, which defies the basis of pound cake. So did you substitute for the granulated sugar or did you do a recipe that called for confectioner's to begin with? Pound cake is an egg rising cake, so has a different chemistry from the standard butter cake. Unless you're one of the people who use "pound cake" to mean any kind of closed crumb cake?

The reason I haven't given you more detailed answers is that I know how to bake, and am not an expert in the science. Since you demand answers, I'll tell you what I've read: The crystalline sugar is sharp and helps cut the fat molecules and gives it structure. The liquidity it lends as it bakes helps prevent gluten formation. Confectioner's sugar is so fine that it dissolves in fat. That keeps it from doing the same thing. Your "better creamed" is really over creamed.

The only answers you're going to be satisfied with, however, are the ones you figure out for yourself. That's fine. Do share! And perhaps read through back threads here. Grainlady puts a lot of baking science in her posts, and she actually is an expert and instructor. In reading other threads you'll also learn the tone we generally expect around here. Your posts read like you're trying to play Christmas Troll.

#1. CREAMING: beating sold fat and crystalline sugar.

#2. The volume of the butter increases from aerating (whipping air into it) so it becomes fluffy. If you touch it, it feels like facial cold cream and it's a pale yellow color. The texture becomes soft but the butter still retains its shape. It isn't beaten at such a fast speed it melts or gets greasy. NO high-speed mixing necessary for creaming. High-speed mixing will cause too much friction which can melt the fat and result in a baked good that is too dense.

[Grainlady note: After decades of judging foods at local and State Fairs, the stand mixer is one of the most over-used and abused tools in the kitchen. Try creaming by hand once and you'll see what creamed fat is really all about.]

#3. Characteristics of softened butter, which is often the first mistake made when creaming fat/sugar.

-Softened butter has an internal temperature you can measure with an Instant Read Thermometer between 68-70 degrees F, but a slightly cooler temperature works best for creaming. Butter warms quickly when beaten or handled (not to mention the influence of the ambient temperature in a hot kitchen), so starting with butter at a slightly cooler temperature will help prevent it from getting too soft, and try to work when your kitchen temperature is in the 60's.

--Don't use butter that sat out on the countertop for hours/days because it will be too soft.

--Butter will soften at room temperature (room temperature is considered to be 70-degrees F) in about 30-45 minutes. Don't use the microwave for softening butter because it will have places that are too soft.

--Perfectly softened butter should give gently to pressure when you press it with your finger. You should be able to leave a fingerprint and slight indentation on the stick, but the butter shouldn't be soft in appearance, nor is it so soft you could press completely through the butter with your finger. It should still remain semi-hard.

--Butter that is too cold won't blend with sugar. If it's too warm, it won't hold air.

#4. Use a paddle attachment of a stand mixer or the beaters of a handheld mixer. Soften the butter on LOW speed for about 1-minute. The fat will fan out in the bowl with ridges. If using both butter and shortening in a recipe, soften the shortening first and then add the butter. If the butter is cold (straight out of the refrigerator) it will still work, but will take longer.

--If you choose to cream fat/sugar by hand, use a wooden spoon. Flatten the butter against the sides of the bowl. Once it becomes creamy, lift the butter and fold it over on itself to incorporate air. Once the butter is light and fluffy, gradually add the sugar. After 3-5 minutes of vigorous beating, the butter should be pale and almost twice the original volume.

#5. Back to the mixer method... Add the crystalline sugar in a steady stream at the side of the bowl. This will allow for better incorporation than adding it all at once, or adding both fat and sugar together, and trying to cream them. After the sugar has been added, increase the speed to medium and beat for 5-minutes. Throughout the creaming process, stop the mixer often and scrape the sides and bottom of the bowl.

#6. Beat until the mixture is light in color and fluffy.

#7. Solid fats (butter, shortening, lard) are called "plastic fats" because of their ability to change shape when pressure is applied. This is determined by the temperature of the fat. Hydrogenated fats are very well suited for creaming. Butter doesn't cream quite as well because it is less malleable at room temperature, but adds flavor and richness you can't get with shortening or lard. Lard also has a larger fat crystal than shortening or butter, making it a good choice for making pastry. Butter is made of shorter chained fatty acids while shortening is made of longer chained fatty acids, and that is the difference in structure.

#8. Avoid overbeating (with mixer or by hand). If the mixture becomes grainy and looks curdled, it has been over-beaten. You can go ahead and use it, but the mixture won't have the same leavening power that properly creamed butter/sugar would.

#9. To keep creamed butter from deflating when eggs are added, lightly beat the egg/s before adding to the mixture. Blend ONLY until the mixture is blended together. Fold in the dry ingredients carefully. May I suggest a Danish Dough Whisk when it comes to blending batters, rather than a stand or electric mixer. Once you add the dry ingredients and you use an electric mixer, it's too easy to over-mix the batter and develop too much gluten, resulting in tough baked goods.

-Grainlady

I'll second the suggestion for using a Danish dough whisk! OMG, it has changed the way I make delicate baked goods. In fact, I seldom use either the Hobart or hand-held mixer because the dough whisk is much more effective for quick, light mixing. I have significant carpal tunnel and still find the dough whisk easy to use.

Great, as usual Grainlady! I have a dough whisk, I'll have to try it.

Wow, I had no idea creaming was so particular. And this explains why sometimes my recipes turn out great and sometimes they're not as good. When they have turned out great, it was probably just luck that I accidentally did it like Grainlady's recommendations (or reasonably close to it). I am putting this with my baking recipes for future reference. Thanks!