Picture of my setup. You can see pale/white leaves of tops of citrus trees from seed.

Meyer lemon with new leaf buds at tips. Small but there.

Final Pic. Top of nutrient starved sunkist lemon from seed tree. I also measured the pH of it's run off, ~4.0! It's middle leaves are showing blotches of green now and the growth tip at the top is now fully green.

I too pay close attention to PH. My trees had dropped to 5.3 PH. They had no problems but I worked on bringing them up 6-6.5 You got the idea with that grow tent. I have been pushing the importance of such an enclosure. However the cost of that tent and light is probably higher the the money you'll save over the next 127 years from buying your fruit at the grocery store. I use the following setup with incredible results.

The beets growing under light were very profitable over buying my own in the grocery store and the heat from the lights kept my citrus tree root at 80F The link below will show more in my photo bucket collection.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://s1094.photobucket.com/user/wreristhechimney/slideshow/sunshine2013

It didn't take me long before this became a hobby rather than an investment:). I agree that I'll never make my money back with the tent and the light. I used to use something very similar to you. In fact I think my original idea was inspired by some of your pics on here. It had about 16 23W CFL bulbs and had reflective Mylar surrounding it. I had good results however it was difficult to reach individual plants for water/removal/adjusting etc. In my opinion the tent setup is really nice, especially because it is self contained meaning that I can "make a mess" and I don't have to worry about water or anything else getting on my hard wood floor. In fact the tent comes with a removable additional bottom that has 6" sides. This will make for easy cleaning when the plants get moved outdoors in the spring. It also has zippers all over the place so its easy to get at any plant in the setup in case you have bug issues or whatever.

So to make a long story short the extra money was worth the utility and enjoyment of my trees. You can get by with much less and maybe break even when it comes to growing your own citrus vs store citrus but you won't be able to enjoy them nearly as much. It doesn't take much energy/time (i.e. $) to let them go semi dormant during winter but what fun is that?

I also put a lot of time in building my original setupnot to mention the supplies/wiring/bulb holders. I think if you look at the cost, utility, and performance you'll find that my set-up really isn't a whole lot more expensive that my old/your type of setup. Wattage is the exact same however much better light with the hortilux eye MH bulb. Maybe the biggest downfall of my new setup is that I have to explain "what's in the tent" every time a visitor comes over.

-Matt

Yeah when I explain that my 1kw hps is for citrus, I get looks. It doesn't help that I live in an apartment.

Hi guys. When I built all my stuff I was very underemployed. My labor is free. This is a hobby for me. The citrus will never pay for itself. Growing greens however will more than pay for itself plus those greens are organic. My new setup pays for itself all winter. My south facing lean too greenhouse heats my house in the winter and grows my citrus, spring stats, greens, Figs, peppers, spinach, mustard greens, Collard greens kale,arugula, lettuce, broccoli. But once again I f I had my full time job I would not be growing most of this. I really enjoyed my work and it was my hobby and social life. I would be growing just peppers, figs, spinach, snap peas, watermelon, and tomatoes and butternut squash.

One must be flexible to get the most out of life. I work at an organic farm and I am in charge of the winter lighting mechanic design and fabrication. It is far more cost effective to use my system as opposed to the commercial setups but he has concrete not hardwood floors.

Best of luck to you

Steve

Hey Matt, I just found your post! I got your e-mail but couldn't respond back to you there..So, I will read this later and come back to see what I can do for you..

By the way, I live in Mass. but get just about the same weather as you)

Yes greens are well worth growing. They really produce. My trees are a hobby too, but I do enjoy getting fruit.

Michigan, it is interesting your mix got so acidic especially as your water pH is so high. I wonder if there are other things in your water that could be affecting the acidity. Maybe something that causes the media to break down too quickly. You would know more than me though as you are a chemist. It is something to watch for. Someone was just telling me that when they make the Orchiata bark we use for orchids they take the radiata bark and soak it in something like ferilizer and at first plants grow real well in it because of the fertilizer, but that causes the bark to deteriorate rapidly and the pH drops dramatically suddenly and kills the roots. Sorry, I don't have the complete story but I notice that happened with my paphs, that like repotting often anyway. I was hoping to not have to repot them as often and was shocked that they seemed to collapse suddenly. He said if you repot before 18 months you would never notice it, but one of the selling points of Orchiata was that it was supposed to last something like 10 years. Maybe something like that happened to you? It is something I heard just last week, but my experience leads me to believe it.

Cory

Hi Cory))
That;s what happened to all of Bobs too...

Matt, I hear you about forgetting to lime and using rain water..I did the very same thing using the 5.1.1 mix and had issues with my tropical plants that like acidic pH really bad...The leaves would turn bright yellow, or whiter, I would loose leaves, especially on my Gardenias and Citrus!! I didn't know what the cause was until I found that I should of used the lime in my mix..
Lime is something I always have in my collection, for my orchids, and everything I grow in a bark based mix made by me, and even bone meal..Any bagged mis you buy is treated with lime to sweeten the mix a bit..

Mike

Wow, glad to see my first post is sparing some conversation!

pip313: are your citrus trees grafted or are they from seed? Is your set-up open? If so I can see how that would be impossible not to notice in an apartment.

Steve: I say the main thing is you have enjoy it. If you can actually get some food and it's cost effective then that's just icing on the cake!

Mike: I thought you were from mich as it was in your name. My bad on that. I've read a lot of your posts though so thanks for all of the help you've documented on here.

Cory: Well I'm thinking the pH of the original mix was ~5 - 5.5. I never measured but I've seen people post their measurements of similar mixes. Also I was curious one day about the pH of pine needles (white pine which are long and soft). I took some brown dead ones this fall and placed them in distilled water for about a day. I then measured the pH and it was 4.1! This was measured using a $600 pH meter from work too! Maybe I'll try this with some of my pine bark fines and see what it gives me.

Again the biggest issue I think is the pH of the water/fert. solution you're using. when I brought my plants in for the fall/winter the pH was probably on the low end of acceptable (5.5-6). This was because I would sometimes water with the hose, it would rain and wash out some of the acid, or I would water with MG which is alkaline believe it or not. Once I started watering with a DG-FP/rain water mix the pH dropped drastically to ~4.2 - 4.0. This is too low for blueberries even. At those pH levels NPK, Sulfur, Magnesium, and Calcium become unavailable. In fact I think DG should put a warning on their label about using rain water or distilled water as a diluent. If you use those sources of water you have to add lime at some point. That being said I forgot to mention that I did add a pinch or so of Lime to each pot. I figured though that flushing with 8.2 pH tap water would have the most immediate effect. The elevated pH comes from dissolve Mg and Ca Carbonates which is what Lime is (well calcium carbonate anyway).

-Matt

FYI...

Matt

I was looking at your trees and I noticed the strings holding one vertical. It seams these trees need help when they are young. Here is mine with strings attached.

{{gwi:31428}}
Seed grown meiwa kumquat tree
{{gwi:576136}}
Steve

My current trees are all dwarf, mostly grafted, 8 from four winds, a us897 rootstock from briteleaf and a standard giant key lime in the mail from harris. I haven't decided if I want to leave it standard, graft to the U.S.-897, or replace the scion of my fourwinds key lime.

I have murcott seeds, moro seeds, tiny moro seeds that might turn out triploid, and minnoloa tangelo seeds that should sprout soon. Now in Michigan will these trees get big enough to fruit? I might just use them as rootstock for throw away trees.

They are in a bedroom. I have a window blind shut that glows like all heck at night before the light shuts off. Oh and spidermites suck. And don't be too eager to up pot. I might have to down pot half of the ones I just up potted.

This post was edited by pip313 on Sun, Jan 25, 15 at 11:30

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the pics. I don't have much trouble keeping the citrus from seeds trees straight but I did have trouble when I potted my grafted mandarin for the first time. It also didn't help that it was outside with the wind/elements. When I take everything out in the spring I may have to make some adjustments to keep them upright in the wind as the pots are pretty small compared to how tall some of them air. I have a lemon tree that's about 3' tall and the pot can't more than 10" x 10". Part of me is curious as to how big it will get if I leave it there....

Hi Matt

My friend has a 5 foot well branched tree in a pot about that size. It puts out new branches while others die back and has reach its maximum size for that pot It to is seed grown but is a grapefruit tree and will never fruit. If you follow the rules on root pruning and care your lemon might fruit but you will increase its chance in a 10 gallon pot.

I am giving up on potted citrus trees and will be planting all mine in ground. My meiwa kumquat will go in as soon as I can disassemble the greenhouse this spring , about June.

Seed grown sweetlee #3 tangerine tree now 2 years old and planted in ground.
{{gwi:2124218}}

Sweetlee #4 tangerine tree from seed at 2 years old is also in ground.
{{gwi:2124140}}

2 year old seed grown sweetlee #2 in 30 gallon container. This tree has much less growth and is 20 inches shorter

This post was edited by poncirusguy on Wed, Jan 28, 15 at 20:23

Update: ~2 weeks since pH correction. Bunch of new leaves and flowers!

Another pic. New leaves on Meyer Lemon.

Final pic. Grapefruit from seed that was pretty bad. I think once the leaves get to a point they won't green up. They just die and new deep green leaves grow. I've noticed this more with my citrus. The bad leaves don't tend to green up. New healthy leaves just start to grow.

Congrats!! It's amazing how much pH plays a role..
If I don't acidify my fertilizer solution often in the growing season, I loose the rich green color and phenominal growth..Great work and catch..

Mike

Mike, I think Matt is saying the Foliage Pro lowers the pH of rainwater and media mix to make it too acid. Adding the vinegar would make it even more acid. I think he said it also happened when he measured starting with a high pH water source like mine. I have very high pH water average of 8.3 - 8.6 and was hoping the vinegar would bring my fertilizing solution to a more neutral range. I think Matt is saying the Foliage Pro itself makes even a water pH like mine way to acid for citrus and even acid loving plants. When I tested my fertilizer solution I thought it was closer to neutral with FP and vinegar, but I only used paper pH testers and don't have a good pH meter like he has. That is why I asked if he might be using the Orchiata bark as people using it seem to be having problems with the pH crashing after it is used for 18 mos. If I knew which was a good pH meter that was not too expensive I would get it to test the media of some of my problematic plants.

Cory

Hi Cory...Using Foliage Pro alone in my water does nothing to change th pH, especially at half the dosage at every watering...
The pH in my tap water with Foliage Pro still stays way to high for my needs...It's strange how every has a different outcome using the same stuff...

Maybe Michigan will come back explain further...?

Take care my friend)

Mike

Hi guys,

It's all about buffer capacity (i.e. the ability for your water to neutralize the acid/base). Just because two types of tap water have the same pH doesn't mean they have the same buffering capacity. Most buffers in tap water consist of carbonate salts (Ca+ or Mg+ are the big ones). Anyways these carbonates react with the acid salts in DG-FP and neutralize them. As more carbonates are used up the pH drops. The drop usually isn't linear in the beginning and in the end.

Rain water is naturally acidic so basically it has no acid buffering capacity which means when you acid the acidic FP the pH of the solution can drop very quickly. Distilled water has even less buffering capacity b/c it doesn't have the low level natural volatile compounds that are in rain water. Here is a chart I made that shows pH of water FP solutions in tap and rain water.

As far as cheap pH meters go I've had good luck with my Milwaukee pH600. I bought it off Amazon.

The key is you need good reference standards as the meter is adjustable. Being a chemist I have really good ones. When comparing it to a $500 mettler toledo pH meter I've found it's accuracy to be +/- 0.1 which is pretty darn good!

-Matt

Here is a link that might be useful: Milawaukee pH600 meter on Amazon

Thanks Matt. I have been looking at the different meters for a while but got scared off by the reviews and having to constantly recalibrate. I will look into this more again as I know my water is not very good for my plants as it has a very high pH and is high in salt and other things not good for my plants and fish and probably myself from what I am able to understand. My plants seem to do so much better in the summer when they are outside getting rainwater. Maybe I am not seeing the steep drop in pH at that time as I mostly use tap water to mix in with the FP. I find the hardest time for the roots is late Spring just before they can go outside and be flushed with the rainwater, even though they do get flushed often in the winter months with tap water. I don't store rainwater so mix the fertilizer with tap water even in summer. The plants respond better then. Maybe with a meter I can track it better to understand what is going on. Besides citrus I grow many orchids and other tropical plants that go inside for the winter.

Cory

Yes, I am with Cory on that..Thanks for explaining..

Cory, I have the same water as you do from what you describe,,I am glad it was brought up...I can learn a thing or two from your results for sure...

Pray we can stick our plants into rain water outside soon..Thank goodness I can collect barrels or it and store them in the basement...Only in the spring and fall will my orchids see Tap water with the house since in the summer I only use rain water and in the winter it's too cold to use the hose anyways, or should I just say it's ia pain in the but..I would if I had too but I have plenty of rain water until spring, or at least I hope.

See you soon and I hope you have a wonderful day))

Thank you Matt...It's amazing how much learn every day...

Update of my new leaf grow on Meyer Lemon. I'd say it's grown several inches now. Troubling thing is I see several small spots on the new leaves. Are they baby scale? I spray them with my insect soap and they go away after a few days but then I notice them again several days later. It's like a bug knows that some "fresh" food is being prepared.

New Meyer Lemon blossoms ready to bloom. They are actually spotty all over the plant but here you can see a cluster.

Update of new growth on my gold nugget dwarf mandarin. Again I see these small brownish spots only on new leaves. It appears that they may be causing the leaves to curl. Are mishapen new leaves any indication of scale or sap sucking insect?

Also I've noticed that with my meyer and my mandarin fairly healthy looking leaves have been either dropping or turning slightly yellow since the new growth has taken over. Is this normal? I would expect the old leaves to be 6 - 12 months old so I have no idea if citrus will shed old, less efficient leaves when they feel that they have a good chance at steady growth for a while. Again the new leaves look very healthy (except what I think are baby scale which are causing slight curling).

Help, my meyer leaves are curling with splotches on the back of them and some of my baby lemons have turned black

Hello,

Ugh sorry to hear that. I"m by know means an expert but I've done lots of reading and have some trial and error experience of my own.

I guess the first place I'd start is the history of the plant (i.e. how old, what are it's current growing conditions and for how long, water and fertilizer schedule, history of insect problems, etc.)

I don't know what it is based on your picture as I'm not a citrus specialist. If the plant is stressed in any way leaf curl and fruit drop are fairly common. I've found that it doesn't take much stress for very small fruit to drop. Once the fruit is larger it seems like the plant is more likely to hold on to it and power through whatever it is going through.

I think I see brown scale on it but the picture is blurry.

Cory

Cory I see the problem. The camera was made in china by an unscrupulous company. Managed by an american company getting past US standards and laws

Hot

Does ppl stand for properly placed lemon and the 125 watt CFL use 125 watts or is that the incandescent equal.

Ppl is people

the reason people like Steve get away with such low wattage is because they contain the light real well and don't get much loss.

Steve, many of your trees are surrounded in full light because you have a way with making it happen? Like bucket over bucket with lights inside? Do you use reflective material too? How do you capture the most light for low wattage? Thanks..I think it would be cost effective for many. Using the most of lower wattage light verses wasting much of the higher wattage light.

I found that even using HIGH powered lights does nothing if most of the light is left to escape or not close enough to plants...