Kimm: I don't understand your prohibition on plastics. Many, many metals are acquired from the Earth, refined and made into useful materials at great expense to the Earth's biosphere too, are they not? If we took plastics, lumber and metals out of our lives, we'd be clothing ourselves. In animal hides and eating everything cold but, the Earth would last forever!

If you took plastic out of food production you would have to rely on rain for the only water, no hoses, buckets or drip tape. Obviously there wouldn't be much food.

People, where did I say that an organic grower could not use plastic? What part of plastic is not organic says it cannot be used by an organic grower?
Plastics are not organic. An organic grower needs to decide which plastic to use if they wish to. In todays world we are all forced to accept some things we may not want because there is no alternative, but we can also chose to recycle, reuse, and maybe even refuse, the excess use of plastic. I realize those anti organic contributors here will say I am splitting hairs because they do not get it.

The OP in the very first post asked "is the use of plastic drip irrigation systems and plastic mulch organic?" (bold added for emphasis). People assumed that everyone was intelligent enough to understand the question. I seriously doubt they will make that assumption again.

Lloyd

Good point Lloyd! It is indeed the un-necessary use of it that bugs me, not so much careful and climate-appropriate use.

Jeez Kimm, saying plastic isn't organic but you can use it in the organic garden is like saying donuts aren't fattening but are if you eat them.

Kimm: I should have been more specific in the OP stating can crops grown in a plasticulture system pass, say, omri standards as organic?

I think I see what you are saying about the use of plastic mulch vs straw with the straw obviously being a plant material and therefore organic. Furthermore, plastics to the best of my knowledge contain carbon molecules but that's as close as they come to being what anyone but an organic chemist would consider organic materials. You also think if there is an alternative, go organic, I. E. No plastics.
It would be a shame I think if one could grow lots of produce strictly organic but lose that status simply because they used the only alternative to irrigate efficiently with drip tape. I have used drip under straw before on many crops and it worked very well, the water goes only where I want it, when I want it and water soluble nutrient leaching can be held to zero. In my environment, a big help is the crop canopies stay dry ( great for disease control) and weed issues are greatly reduced as a lot of weed seed never gets wetted allowing it to germinate. My only other irrigation option is overhead with sprinklers, very wasteful and leads to disease and weed problems. I choose to drip and reuse, reluctantly, the tapes.
BTW, if I did irrigate the only thing I could grow here is probably bindweed, too hot and dry for too long; also no matter how I irrigate, a garden hose must be used, no alternative there except carrying animal skin bags of water to the crops.

Oops, if I didn't irrigate it would be only bindweed.

Drip is a very good idea. Plastic mulch is fine for certified organic operations. My problem with their rules is that you have to replace the mulch every year instead of when it needs to be thrown away. One reason I don't want to certify my farm.

You might not have seen it but there is a new personal edit function Michael. Just under the "clippings" header at the top right corner of each post.

Lloyd

Thanks Lloyd, please remind me if you notice me doing the same thing again.

Minnie: what crops are you growing and with what plastic that the sun doesn't degrade it to the point of being useless for a second year?

I have found that the IRT 100 can last many years.

I use woven polypropylene weed barrier in my veggie garden on the pathways and sides of the raised beds for years now, left out all year around in the sun, some of the lengths are 12 years old and counting. The durability seems to be more a function of the quality of particular batch run than any inherent half-life of the material.

So I have polypropylene mulch, compost mulch, and grass clipping clover mulch in my food garden, everything held up by mild steel t-posts and cattle panels for support. I just put in a hill-billy drip system using 3/4 inch main line hose with 4 mm holes drilled every foot or so along, makes it easier to put the water exactly where I need it.

Now I lean my forehead against the t-posts, hands at my sides in despair, my organic cotton handwoven organic gardener lapels ripped from my organic hemp tunic in dishonor

I use the embossed mulch in black or white. See link. The key to me being able to grow for so many families by myself is to have weeding strategies. Mulches are super important. I do what I can to grow a lot of organic food and also reduce waste.

Here is a link that might be useful: embossed mulch

Putting plastic sheeting down as a mulch can be more counterproductive than an aid. While plastic sheets may help keep unwanted plant growth (weeds) down they also can limit the soils ability to get water and air, both necessary for good healthy plant growth.
Using plastic sheeting for mulch may also require that plastic piping be placed under to provide water to the plants growing there..
Since there are other, better, materials available for mulches, often for much less cost and often for free, those would be preferable to plastic.

Kimmsr, If a gardener uses plastic mulch [I use very little), they can drill some holes in the mulch while it is still in the roll. This lets some water through.

You missed a point about some plastic mulch systems Kimm. The soil underneath can get quite warm in mid Summer heat. Guess what, if you want to heat up your soil the most and fastest in the Spring, use clear, colorless plastic, not black. Seems counterintuitive but it's true.

One other note on drip under plastic, controlling the crop's water allows one to control it's fertility better, think water soluble nutrients in the soil solution.

The Soil Conservancy District here sells inexpensive trees and shrubs for windbreaks, a hold-over from the Dust Bowl days. They have done decades of tests on how best to grow these plants with the minimum inputs, and for the best results, they recommend a woven, black polypropylene weed barrier, 6 ft wide better than 4ft wide.

So to build a windbreak, you can buy a lot of 250 bare-root trees for $250 or so, but the black plastic, staples, trunk protectors, and fertilizer pellets will set you back closer to $2,000. Trying to use natural mulch on a 1,000 ft by 20 ft windbreak is a whole other issue.

The soil under my plastic mulch is wetter than without it AND I use drip lines to water under there for the last few years anyway. I also poke some holes. The soil is wonderful and soil tests show great results. The plastic mulch is so much cheaper than straw, so the straw I do get for free is used where it must be. But I am gardening 2/3 acre and it makes a difference.

Of course, mulches eventually add energy to the soil, plastic does not.

I have not missed any points about plastic as a mulch. Many people have found that plastic does far more harm to the soil then it benefits. Poking holes in the plastic, to allow water to flow to the soil will also allow unwanted plant growth to appear. Plastic can increase soil temperatures, if clear is used by as much as 14 degrees, if applied properly, but is that really necessary. Not where I am. Some plastic films can actually cause a decrease in soil temperature.
Having a soil wetter then normal may also be counterproductive since excess water in soil excludes the air plant roots also need to grow, and the plastic prevents the exchange of air the Soil Food Web needs to function well.
Mulches of vegetative waste will provide a food source for the Soil Food Web that will provide the nutrients, energy, plants need to grow that plastic cannot.
People can try to justify why they use, or practice, materials and methods that are not acceptable organic methods all they want but the bottom line is when they do they are not organic growers.

This is more entertaining than television.

Can anyone pass the popcorn?

Not where I am.

And there in lies the crux. You don't average 13 " of precipitation a year, half that as snow. Is your humidity in the summer Perhaps if you did, you might recognize that those who do garden in such environments have their reasons for doing what they do. So what rainfall and precipitation patterns are acceptable for organic gardening? I can't grow in a plastic pot, it must be one made of clay?

As for not being "organic", would it be acceptable if our woven 'plastic' mulches and containers and hoses drip lines etc were made from processed soybean oil and not broken down ancient living matter that has been turned into petroleum over the eons?

This post was edited by david52 on Sat, Jan 17, 15 at 11:48

As david52 points out, there is a substantial part of the US where plastic mulches and drip irrigation area very efficient growing system. In our area, very little could be grown without supplemental irrigation; it is not uncommon to go two months with no precipitation over a few hundredths.

For those reading the thread who would like the facts on approved organic systems, here are a couple items taken from certification guides:
§ 205.206 Crop pest, weed, and disease management practice standard.
(c) Weed problems may be controlled through: (1) Mulching with fully biodegradable materials;
(6) Plastic or other synthetic mulches: Provided that, they are removed from the field at the end
of the growing or harvest season.

§ 205.601(b)(2)(i-ii) Synthetic substances allowed for use in organic crop production.
In accordance with restrictions specified in this section, the following synthetic substances may
be used in organic crop production:
(b) As herbicides, weed barriers, as applicable: (2) Mulches.
(i) Newspaper or other recycled paper, without glossy or colored inks.
(ii) Plastic mulch and covers (petroleum-based other than polyvinyl chloride (PVC)).

A the moment, I believe all plastic mulches used for annual crops need to be removed at the end of each season. The reasoning is that the certifiers do not want the mulches to degrade, leaving plastic pieces in the field. Perennial crops can have plastic mulch over multiple years until they threaten to degrade too much to be removed from the field.

I have not kept up to date with the latest developments, but there has been a very strong move to allow degradable mulches which could be left on the field at the end of the season and eventually have their byproducts incorporated into the soil. There are vigorous arguments on both sides. Proponents point to the significantly reduced labor and material costs, and the possibility of using some of these mulches several years in annual crops. They also cite research which shows no harmful degradation products produced by the mulches. Opponents worry that some of these mulches are corn-derived, and therefore likely were made with GMO corn; they don't want even a byproduct of this corn on organic fields. Opponents also hope to force the increased use of labor and fuel-intensive agriculture associated with deposition of organic waste materials. They perceive benefits to the total US economic outlook by reducing "big-farming" methods.

For those who would like to read more, see: USDA National Organic Program (USDA NOP)
Website: http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/nop
NOP Guidance: Allowance of Green Waste in Organic Production Systems
NOP 5016
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/nop

The bottom line is that certainly plastic mulches can be used by organic growers, and there are many benefits. Each grower must weigh the benefits against perceived difficulties.

In my personal opinion, I do not see how much organic food could be produced at a reasonable price in many parts of the US without the use of these aids. It is always nice to lay organic mulches, and I do it regularly, but the labor and fuel involved in covering large fields regularly with these materials is, in my opinion, not the optimal choice.

Even on a home garden scale, plastic can have a place in mulching. I have had to battle a relatively small patch of bindweed. I tried pulling and digging out all sprouts for quite a time, but did not get ahead of the weed. There was 14" of wood chips on most of the impacted soil, and six inches on the rest. I could have labored for many hours over several years to rid even this small area of the problem. Instead, I opted to use a weed killer which did kill the bindweed. In a small area, I could not use the weed killer, so I covered the area with clear plastic sheets. Within two months, the weeds were gone everywhere. Because I value my time, these were clearly for me the best choices to make, consistent with my understanding of organic gardening as making the least harmful impact on my environment.

Others might have said to go ahead and weed for a sustained period of time; perhaps their valuation of time is different from mine.
Renais

I just came across the attached article that discusses in good depth the issues associated with plastic mulch in certified organic growing. The article is written by a knowledgeable group of ag researchers. Here's the abstract; the whole article is available for free at the link.

Certified organic farmers are currently allowed to use conventional polyethylene mulch, provided it is removed from the field at the end of the growing or harvest season. To some, such use represents a contradiction between the resource conservation goals of sustainable, organic agriculture and the waste generated from the use of polyethylene mulch. One possible solution is to use biodegradable plastic as mulch, which could present an alternative to polyethylene in reducing non-recyclable waste and decreasing the environmental pollution associated with it. This article explains how biodegradable plastic mulches are made; how biodegradability is measured; current techniques on evaluating biodegradable mulches; and research and policy progress to date. The purpose is to inform agricultural professionals, farmers, and policy makers about the suitability of biodegradable plastic mulches for use in certified organic agriculture. A glossary is provided at the end of this publication which includes definitions and terms commonly used when describing biodegradable plastic mulch.

Renais

Here is a link that might be useful: Certified organic plastic mulch

What little I have used plastic mulches...IRT 100 and black plastic, I have noticed a very desirable tilth of the soil underneath....even after 3 years. Also the watermelons were very large and good.

Plastic mulch is allowed for organic farming in FL because they realize the benefits, protects nutrients from leaching, protects the soil from erosion, improves decomposition and release of nutrients from manures, protects fruits from rotting in contact with the ground, results in earlier crops, protects from weed growth. In combination with drip irrigation, it allows growers to control crop nutrition rather precisely.
And the plastic mulch can be recycled.

Kimm, you nailed a point on the head about soil temperature and plastic mulches, "when properly applied". The mulch must be in contact with the soil to get the maximum temp increase. Big growers have machines that build the soil bed, lay the drip tape and then mulch all in one pass. The beds are very uniform and the plastic very snug and form fitting.

Thanks for the input everyone, think I'm going for some popcorn now :)

As I said before, OMRI requires the plastic to be thrown out every year which I am against. I will not use any herbicides although I have tried corn gluten as a preemergent without much results. For transplanted crops I use black plastic if they like heat and white if they don't. For seeded crops I use organic mulch of pine needles, chopped leaves, or straw and I am not against wood chips. When I used to use less plastic mulch I had beds I could never get weeded and the crops would suffer. My using the plastic for transplanted crops I am able to cultivate 125x200 alone but even still weeding is a big chore. I am trying to transfer my plastic paths to clover but I my husband doesn't want me to have a lawn mower he has to care for so I have to weed whack the clover. It grows very fast! The main two paths down the center each way are permanent weed blocker fabric that is good for many years. But these woven fabrics allow weed growth since the roots can get through if there is soil spilled on top. So the embossed plastic doesn't allow any weed growth.

Minnie: guess you aren't thrilled about the mulches being recycled? How about the degradable mulches that get turned into the soil and broken down to water and CO2 by the soil microorganisms?

When I last looked, I believe the degradable mulches were not yet allowed for certified organic growing. See the link I put in a post above about certified organic mulches. There had been (and may still be) a strong effort to allow the degradable mulches. In my post and link above there is a good bit of info about the two sides of the argument about these mulches.

The only alternative I've seen to picking up the mulch at the end of the season was a pretty large certified operation in Arizona which covered a degradable mulch from a previous planting with a new degradable mulch. They then effectively had a perennial planting system with a renewed perennial mulch. Perennial plantings do not need to have mulches removed. I'm not sure how they got their mulch certified because it certainly had a corn-based content. As noted above, the issue of GMO corn in these mulches is still very much discussed.

My personal experience is that many of the mulches do in fact degrade fairly quickly and effectively if allowed to do so. In part of my professional life we dealt with degradation products for these kinds of materials. The degradation products for many of the not purposefully degradable mulches are in fact not a problem in the soil. Both photo and bio-degradation mechanisms are effective. Perhaps in the future there will be a more science-based analysis of these mulches which will lead to their easier use in certified organic.
Renais

It would be great if they could be recycled. There was a plastic recycling center in MN years ago that closed. I don't think there are many or any. This one had taken drip tape and mulch film. Many farmers throw out all plastic and drip tape every year, especially certified organic. The certified farm I toured a couple years ago said to just throw it all out every year.

The National Organic Program, NOP, people and
Organic Materials Research Institute, OMRI, people have weakened the organic standards to meet the needs of agribusiness rendering what it means to a "certified" organic grower somewhat meaningless.
I am not sure if some here are trying to convince me, or themselves, that they are organic even though they are using practices that are unacceptable to organic growing.
Some places have laws that require the sellers of products made, or packaged, in plastic to take that plastic back for recycling, but most places do not. Very little plastic is recycled.
Plastic is made of non renewable resources.
Plastics are not readily recycled.
Plastics do not add anything to soils, although they may contribute to conditions that may increase insect pest and plant disease problems.
Plastic is not organic, because it is made of non renewable resources and is not recycled.

kimmsr, Granted, much plastic isn't recycled, but some is recycled. I believe that some plastic is made from plant grown products like soybeans....,which are rather renewable. So it isn't quite an open and shut case like you present.

-edit- Deleting this humor post.

It may cause another 2-3 dozen posts or something other than laughs...neither of which are desirable at this point.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Mon, Jan 19, 15 at 14:04

Little Minnie, same here, tons of the stuff getting thrown away every year. It's simply insane.

Minnie: why in the world would OMRI require the mulch to be pulled every year? Seems like a huge waste of non-renewable resources that some apparently can't recycle and therefore shouldn't be using if they consider themselves good stewards of the earth. Probably some ivory tower, behind closed doors decision to keep the plastic mulch manufacturers in business. Research institute, yeah, right!!! They're probably up to their eyeballs in it with the Ag industrial complex industry selling their souls!

michael, I imagine the reason to discard the plastic yearly is to ensure that it does not break down in the field...into pieces impossible to retrieve. I once tried a solarization plot [silly me] with clear 2 mil plastic. In 6 weeks time it was a mess to clean up.

Now in hotter areas with perhaps different grades and such of plastic, plastic might only be good for 1 year. In areas like here it is likely good for 2 to 4 years. IRT 100 is thin and lets much of the heat through by rays and it keeps for years here,

michael, I imagine the reason to discard the plastic yearly is to ensure that it does not break down in the field...into pieces impossible to retrieve. I once tried a solarization plot [silly me] with clear 2 mil plastic. In 6 weeks time it was a mess to clean up.

Now in hotter areas with perhaps different grades and such of plastic, plastic might only be good for 1 year. In areas like here it is likely good for 2 to 4 years. IRT 100 is thin and lets much of the heat through by rays and it keeps for years here,

I think it might be a disease issue.

You nailed it Wayne, big mess. The IRT100 stuff is pretty amazing and it's been around for quite a while. Might be able to find some research data on IRT 100 and the starch mulches at the U of FL. In the 1980s at least there was PhD named Bill Stall doing research on all of the plastic mulches for veggie row crops looking at their degradation and soil warming characteristics, don't remember his findings.

I have heard that the Dole plantations in HI are the most horrifying mess with years and years of plastic trash mixed into the soil - I guess there is little attempt to clean it up yearly.

Found this stuff made from non-GMO corn starch, in Canada it's certified organic. Don't know about the USA.

Here is a link that might be useful: BioTep film

Sounds like those folks at Dole in HI are morons, why would they turn their soil into a plastic dumping area, that's going to catch up to them real quick. Got any pics of the "real mess"? I'd love to see them.

They fumigate under the plastic because of heavy pest (especially nematodes) pressure...then they poke holes in the plastic after a few weeks and insert plants for your normal plastic mulch benefits.

This post was edited by nc-crn on Fri, Jan 23, 15 at 21:47

Is the fumigant Methyl Bromide?

I'm not sure what the popular one is on that Hawaiian island, but it's almost assuredly was used at one point.

It's officially banned in the US, but thanks to exemption use it's still quite common in places like California, where it's a bit easier to get exemptions. That varies from state-to-state, though.

A fellow in england said he had been there and that's what he described. He may have been exaggerating or making it up from whole mulch, as it were…

They've been doing it so long that there may be a good amount of plastic litter mixed with top soil, especially on field and row edges.

Taking up all your plastic isn't a perfect process (especially on a large farm) and with the weather there you're going to see a lot more year-round field use as well as extreme weathering on the plastic, itself.

I read where after topping the pineapple fruit maybe three times that the fruit gets smaller and they have to start new settings.

I don't remember seeing any bits of plastic in the FL fields we worked in. Those guys had pretty slick mulch lifters that ran down the rows and left the soil. If the FL guys tried to use the same film crop after crop they would have likely had a mess and angry neighbors.