CCKW - What you talk about is a major part of the problem. The thing is, they are people mind set and world view. Its how they are taught is ok, or what is normal. We want the change now, but we have to teach the younger generations how to change, rather then passing on our bad habits and continuing the cycle. RE: those apples I am wondering if there would be a colour change due to growing conditions, specifically if organically grown fruit has had the level of difference as I showed in the pic above. Bamboo Rabbit - Its up in the air it seems. There are too many variables to think of to get proper controlled experiments. I dont think its safe to say it is or isnt more nutritious yet. I personally assume organic should be more, if a little, but thats my thoughts, not something that i read in a paper :P Drew - I think many advocates of organic dont understand that there are differences between some agro chemicals. There is a difference between the sulfer we use to acidify the soil and petroleum based fertilizers and sprays. The differences (As far as I know, and please correct me if im wrong) between the sulfer and the petroleum products are the source. I believe the sulfer we use is naturally occuring, where as the nitrogen fertilizer we use is usually based on oil byproducts. The oil industry has its own stigmas, problems and bias which translates to the agro chemicals made from them. I definitely prefer soluble fertilizer for all of my indoor potted plants. The soil leeches nutrients too fast, and if you dont supplement with something then you have to repot or top dress the plant quite often. I use seaweed fert mixed to 1 tsp per gallon, and add 1/4 dose 20-20-20.

There actually are some gmo seeds on the market that consumers can buy. According to Fedco ( where I get most my seed) Burpee golden beet is a Gmo? I have been growing that for years not knowing. It's germination and growth rate was slow. I now use detroit golden and golden mangel an heirloom seed. I cannot imagine that using treated seed has a noticable impact on the soil or the plant it produces. It's a religion, like Mac vs Pc. and organic is the pasword these days. I grow my stuff organically because I get free manure and I like what it does to my otherwise marginal soil. I also don't like handling chemicals and spraying them on the food I eat or give away. I use neam oil for aphids and it works ok, nothing for root maggots, just plant a few extra plants for the bugs etc. I have less than an acre in cultivation so managment is fairly easy. I also grow under various types of mulch, a winner all the way from my way of thinking. I had the opportunity to chat with a fellow that travels the world resurecting sick forests with proprietary enzymes he has created. He also tests soil and vegitbles with frequency devices he created in his labs to determine health. A healthy vegitable will sit on your kitchen counter for a long time and dehydrate, an imballanced one will rot fairly fast. It was indicated to me that some of the worst vegitable frequencies come from all chemical fertilized and all organically fertilized gardens and the combination of the two fertilezers produced the best produce, for what is is worth. The debate is likely to go on for some time.

I'm not quite sure what is the point of this thread. In this one meta analysis, they reviewed 343 previous studies done, examining and measuring nutritional content of organic vs non organic vegetables. Is that right? Yet, after 343 studies done, they still find very little difference in the nutritional value of both groups. No difference that would actually support recommending one over the other for nutritional content. After 343 studies. That to me is a very large waste of time and money to do that many studies when the first 50 probably told you all you needed to know. I also have to wonder, who was paying for these studies? Is some organization trying to gain support for their point of view with 'scientific studies showâ¦'? At any rate, I haven't expected that organic produce has significantly higher amounts of nutrition over non organic produce. I simply understand that pesticides and fungicides actually are designed to kill bugs and fungus. Why would I want to eat foods that were sprayed with any kind of agent that can kill, even if it is just a small bug? And had them repeatedly applied? And that the soil that they are growing in has had years and years of them being applied? The other reason I choose organic gardening, is because an ecological system clearly exists. Why ignore that rather than try to understand it and work with the system rather than against it? None of these studies address either of those reasons why I choose organic.

LOL. Here's a couple things that help. First, cut a clove of garlic into slices and let him stand on them barefoot for a few minutes until he tastes garlic. Yeah - you absorb stuff through your feets ;-) The A in MSMA is arsenic. ...great stuff to absorb. I'm 'quiet' about my natural gardening. Nobody likes a lecture and nobody likes self-righteous a-holes. Rather than 'FINE! Use chemicals! Kill our beloved Earth Mother you warming denier SOB!' you may find that the best 'argument' is to kick the ever loving humanure out of your neighbor's property by having a better looking lawn. When I moved into my current property a year ago I noted that there was a 'competiton' for best lawn going on between the guy across the street from me and the guy next to me. They giggled when I scalped my lawn and started spreading compost because I went from 'a nice chem lawn' to utter crap in days but a month later they were asking what the hell I did and this spring one of them tore out half his front yard and put down new sod because my impossibly thick, dark green, 3/8" tall bermuda 'carpet' was just killing him. ...I don't preach or gloat, I show and tell and explain pragmatically and sensibly and avoid any sort of judgment. ...and OK, OK, I sneak out with my pump sprayer each night and apply that day's gallon of liquid gold to the grass with an ounce of molasses and a gallon of water and I never reveal that part of it because too many fools have no understanding that liquid gold is not the least bit unsanitary and would freak out but the proof is right out front ;-) Had a funny one last week. Some service came by to pitch their spray program as three of us neighbors were doing what men do - chatting about the finer points of lawn care and beer and football. I actually felt bad for the pitcher because we were in front of my house and the guy had really picked the wrong place to pitch. "We fertilize regularly" - hmmmm... is my yard in need of fertilizer? (lawn is pine green, thick and lush). "We treat for broadleaf weeds and crabgrass!" Oh really" How? "We spray the entire yard" Hmmmm.... ok, but there aren't any weeds or crabgrass, doesn't that stuff knock the grass back a bit? What's in it - can I walk barefoot after you spray it? "we also spray for insects so you won't have any ants and spiders". Oh... other than the occasional black widows which don't live in the lawn, why is it good to kill spiders? Does the spray kill only the spiders and ants? What about ladybugs and flutterbys? My kid likes ladybugs and running through the yard barefoot. Would it be OK to run around barefoot after you spray? Poor kid. I looked at him and said "OK, so you want to spray several gallons of poison to kill weeds that are not present and insects that are harmless for $500 and the benefit to me is that I can't run around in the yard barefoot with my toddler? No offense man but how does that sound like a good idea?" I was nice about it but the lack of sales training was probably more annoying to me than the lack of cognition. If I had to sell a used Pinto I would probably not try to sell it at a Mercedes dealership and that's what this kid was trying to do. Worse - the neighbors were asking me how to get the same benefits without the negatives and cost. That's how we win the debate and the key is not to over-reach. If someone asks me how to kill Nutsedge without chemicals I don't BS them. I pull the stuff until it eventually stops coming back. The best advertising we can do is to show results and avoid recommending anything that is iffy. I've read about how Nutsedge hates a good organic yard and that is just plain ...compost nitrogen of bovine origin. If someone WANTS to go all natural then they will. The other 90% want something that works so pick our battles wisely. Rather than spray 1/4 acre with a quart of MSMA maybe you can help a neighbor see the wisdom of using one ounce in his sprayer to spot treat. Rather than spraying the whole yard for insects (God that is freaking moronic) how about a spoonful of fire ant bait right on the mound? If we push hard to get people to go 100% natural we will fight like hell to win over 10-20% of those we argue with. If we are pragmatic rather than dogmatic we can probably get 80% of people to use only 20% of the bad crap they use currently and that has a MUCH greater impact. 32 ounces of MSMA targeted where indicated across 32 lawns is better than half of those lawns getting a full 32 ounces, right? Progress, not perfection. Show, then tell. Who do you listen to? The guy who is kicking your ass at something to the point where you break down and ask him how he does it or the guy who tells you what you are doing wrong without first having shown you a reason to believe he knows his ass from his elbow?