Oh and I should add the lawn is bumpy to the list. We have a little over 3/4 of an acre.

This post was edited by NVL4 on Mon, Jan 26, 15 at 10:43

I am just south of you in Fayetteville. I will let you know that it is going to be a tall task to get your bermuda healthy on a organic program. I understand your concern with the stream behind you and the health for your children and pets.

For the weeds, you can go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get some Southern Weed Killer AND some Image Kills Nutsedge. You can mix these two together in a pump sprayer to make a cocktail that will kill 95% of the weeds in your lawn. The chemicals in these weed killers have a very low residual in them and won't hurt anything except what you spray it on. Once it dries it is basically harmless. You can spray the weeds now but it will take longer for you to see them die off, maybe 2-4 weeks.

As for the bermuda you will need to fertilize it with a synthetic fertilizer to get it to grow in and thicken up once you have achieved that you can then switch over to a more organic approach to maintain it. The reason I caution against an organic program for bermuda is that I tried it on mine a few years ago and it never really took off and just didn't look good until I added some synthetic fertilizer and then it perked right up. Don't be afraid of synthetic fertilizers because they don't really contain anything that can do you harm as long as you don't ingest them. I would recommend a soil test so you are not adding anything more than what your soil can handle and reduce any runoff into the stream.

Here is a link that might be useful: Try reading this as it may help

Thank you! This all sounds very doable and reasonable . How long of a dry spell do I need for the weed killer? I wouldn't mind if I sprayed but it took a few weeks to die off.... As long as it dies. :)

Also, in reading I think what my mom was calling crab grass is the yellow nut sedge and the 'weedy looking grass' is crabgrass. I think that is probably what is in the mostly bare areas.

This post was edited by NVL4 on Mon, Jan 26, 15 at 12:45

If you'd rather avoid the stranger synthetics, urea nitrogen is a cheap and effective (and solid and scentless) way of doing things. While made in a factory these days, it's the same chemical that you pee out several times a day.

Some care is required with pure urea--the stuff is powerful--but it tends to be inexpensive and effective.

Meanwhile, you can work on your organic matter levels with fill-in organic fertilizers. In your case, I'd recommend soybean meal (if you can get it there) or cottonseed meal (which you probably can) at 15 pounds per thousand square feet several times per year.

For the weed killer try to apply it 1-2 days before we are suppose to get some rain which isn't until next week. The weed killer itself should dry within an hour or so depending on the weather. If it is in direct sunlight it will dry faster of course, the rain will help wash it down into the soil where the root of the weed will uptake some of it too. If you are spot spraying the weeds, I would suggest getting some blue marker dye that you add to your tank while mixing the weed killer. It will let you know where you have sprayed so you don't waste any of it. It will fade away after a good rain.

I agree with Morph that you can start the whole organic thing this year if you choose as it won't affect anything else that you are doing. Just be warned that it can be REAL expensive, especially with a 1/3 of an acre. You can source your grain at Tractor Supply and Southern States which I know you have in your area.

For the fertilizer you will want to get one with a high nitrogen number, which is the first number on the bag of N-P-K. 46-0-0 is a Urea Nitrogen fertilizer that is 100% fast release and is cheap. I would only apply about .5 lb per 1K every 2 weeks if you are going to use it. Since it is fast release it will all be gone after a week or two, so if you apply too much you are basically wasting it and anything the grass doesn't use up gets washed away.

The other option is a nice slow release fertilizer that has 25-75% slow release nitrogen. It will cost you a little more but you can apply about 1 lb of nitrogen per 1K every 4-6 weeks since it slowly feeds the lawn and less is wasted and less often you have to apply it. You get what you pay for.

Just FYI, incase you didn't know to figure out how much product to apply you take the first number on the bag like let's say 25-0-0, you would take that number and divide it by 100 and you would get 4. So you would need 4 lbs of fertilizer to apply 1 lb of nitrogen. If you get a fraction just round up or down to your liking.

When should we start fertilizing? Will it help to start amending the soil now so it has some to decompose or should we wait until the grass is not dormant and is actively growing? Will applying certain amendments at specific times help it to break it's dormancy a little earlier or is that completely dependent on the weather? Assuming it is possible, is it an OK thing to do for the overall health of the lawn?

I may work in the front and side yards first. That might make it a more manageable project. Are the two organic amendments better than alfalfa pellets or do they serve a different purpose?

When it comes to organics for lawns more protein=more nitrogen but it has to be broken down first before it can be used by the grass. Soybean meal and cotton seed meal have a higher protein content than lets say cracked corn or alfalfa pellets. You "can" add grains to the lawn now but you will only be feeding the soil and it will be slow to break down do to the temperatures. Adding anything to the soil for nitrogen will do nothing for the grass since it is dormant and is not taking in any nutrients. Milorganite is another good organic fertilizer you can add to your soil.

The only real good way to get your lawn to green up faster is in April when you start to see little shoots of green coming up in the lawn, scalp your lawn as low as you can without cutting dirt and make sure you bag or rake up all the clippings. It allows more sunlight to get to the soil which in turn will heat the soil faster causing your lawn to green up faster. Dirt is also darker than the tan bermuda so it absorbs more heat. After all this is done, you can then start fertilizing your lawn to help it wake up and get going for the season.

Thank you all for the information.
That us an terrific site Mightyquinn. Thank you.

One minor thing is that "years of neglect" tend to result in a soil that's tapped out on one or more major resources.

A soil test is always a good idea in that case (many of us use either Logan Labs or UMass' testing service as we [meaning I] can read those effectively). Bermuda is on the "more demanding" list of southern grasses, so a test is a really good idea.

Thank you. I am looking into getting a soil test done right now.

Bermuda isn't really all that difficult to care for. Just listen to Morph's advice after you get your results and you will be just fine.

Mow short and often, feed monthly during the growing season, water when required, and balance the soil if necessary.

There you go, Bermuda advice. ;-) It is one of the more forgiving grasses and spreads like mad when it's happy. So any thin patches will fill right in for you.

It's kind of the southern version of Kentucky bluegrass, but a little less demanding than KBG.

Morph I've found with old Bermuda grass it likes 3-4+ inches. The short Bermuda is for the newer strand with quality organic matter.

So for loomy soil a longer grass would have a bigger root, thus able to get more moisture. So I believe they should mow high.

I would be willing to bet that they have Tifway 419 in there yard which is the same that I have. It is common around here for builders to sod either that or Centipede. Tifway does way better when it is cut short and kept below 1" but does fine below 2".

Unless you have a pasture bermuda seed on your lawn, you should NEVER cut it at 3-4 inches, it may be green but will get thin and weak. The shorter you cut bermuda the tighter it gets so the more moisture it will hold plus it will basically choke out any weeds that you may have too.

Mighty...I'm not the police giving you a warning, but people here have been banned for life specifically for linking to that other forum. There's some very bad blood there 5 years after the events. Plus it's a violation of the GW TOS. I'm just sayin...we'd hate to lose you.

I have read here about people who have made organics work on a home scale for bermuda. Soil quality is an important factor in making that work.

David, I didn't realize there was bad blood between the two websites and didn't mean to stir anything up. I read the TOS and as far as I could tell, I wasn't doing anything wrong. I will keep that in mind for now on. Thanks.

I have seen maybe 2-3 bermuda lawns that were cared for organically that were in good shape. I agree it has a lot to do with the condition of their soil. I would think a hybrid approach may work until they get there soil under control. I also have to say that it all depends on how much lawn they have as it can get real expensive dropping all that grain and milorganite.

Mighty, yeah, it's a stupid story, but a lot of good people were affected. Basically the GW advertisers don't want links that go out to competitors to GW. It takes you away from their advertising.

Anyway I like the hybrid approach to bermuda. Since these folks are leaning toward organics, I would put the emphasis on organics and supplement with chemicals, probably the last app of the season with urea as a winterizer and to set up the next spring's early growth.

I would do it the other way around with some slow release nitrogen along with a soil test to get the soil and lawn right and add organics as they see fit throughout the year. As for the urea as a winterizer that is the LAST thing you want to do to bermuda before it goes to sleep for the winter as it will use all it's reserves to grow. It is not a cool season grass and it won't help with Spring green up. You want a nice healthy turf if you are going to be transitioning to organics.

Our house is about 10 years old. I don't know how new the new improved Bermuda is but if it's newer han 10 years we would have the old stuff. My husband has been mowing a little long because what little we know about lawns from our previous climate was to mow long, but that was a very different environment and grass.

In our previous location, we xeriscaped our front yard and out backyard was very shaded but since we mulched and there was plent if leaves from the trees it faired OK, given that he didn't do much to it.

Tifway 419 has been around since the 1960's and is very good grass that is why it is still around and used today for. Depending on how smooth your lawn is depends on how low you will be able to cut the lawn. With a rotary mower it is best to keep it below 2".

Thank you MQuinn. I imagine you are right about the type then. The yard is terribly uneven and that is one if the things we (probably *I*) need to address. With 3/4 of an acre there is no way will the hubs use anything but his riding mower, but I did inform him after the initial advice from the responses that he should be mowing lower to let light get to it, as opposed to what we previously were doing).

I am trying to get him to understand that more perrenial beds means less mowing and kess work for him. That battle wages on.
I can probably get away with mowing our front lawn with a push mower, but the rest is just too big and he will need (and want) to use the riding mower. After I get those tests completed I will know if I should add compost, wait then add sand or just go straight for the sand. I am betting it could use some compost first, but I could be very wrong about that.

We can lower the mower and I can ask him to mow more slowly so that he can adjust the height as needed to accommodate for the high spots. Not for all of them, I know that, but the bigger areas.

Or with Bermuda, can he scalp it to help level it? I am guessing that would be -you know what -on the mower blades. It's new, so they are still steadfastly in love with one-another.

The mowing height I recommended is just that a recommendation. If you can't cut that low due to the lawn being uneven then so be it. Think of getting the lawn in good shape as a marathon and not a sprint. You will see vast improvements the first year but it may take 2-3 or more to get it to where you are just "maintaining" it. You will most likely have to raise your cutting height come July or August to keep from getting "crop circles" in your lawn.

If you want to level your lawn it will probable be best to do it in sections since you have so much lawn and it can be done with sand.

I don't know how far back this new forum goes into history, but search for "leveling bermuda lawn." There are some tricks to make it work neat and easy. It's hard work but the concept is not hard. First you get the grass growing very well, then fertilize and water, scalp it as low as you can, dump sand and level it, water it down, dump more sand-level-water and repeat until it is perfectly flat. That process takes a couple days, so plan for a hot, 3-day weekend. 4th of July would be good.