Actually Dunant does mention Michelangelo in a rather indirect way. There are some author's notes at the end that mention a crucifix of white wood which Michelangelo had carved, before it was lost, then later re-found. And there is reference to the same crucifix damaged by the painter, in this novel.

I think the corruption of the Catholic Church at that time was very accurately depicted in this work. It was interesting to me to read the following 2 novels as a pair: "Birth of Venus" and "Pope Joan", for both deal with similar themes.

Vee, I, too, have been wondering if "The Painter" was R. van der Weyden.

Besides Michelangelo,at least 4 other prominent Renaiss. artists are specifically mentioned by name in this novel: Botticelli, Fra Filipo Lippi, Ghirlandaio, and Massacio.

Interesting to connect that sort of society to pre-war Berlin.....

Captb'fire, the corruption of the Church in pre-Reformation times days makes today's goings-on look like a bit of 'slap and tickle' at a Sunday School picnic.
The senior Churchmen of the Medieval period were often Princes in their own right, they controlled City States and as the only educated men, acted in what today would be the Civil Service for kings and emperors.
Their monasteries, throughout Europe, were centres of hospitality and learning, they ran the universities where they provided education for the younger sons of the nobility and the bright grammer school boys (in England even as late as the nineteenth century, the 'landless' son often went into the C of E . . . think of Jane A's characters).
Monks ran the only hospitals, they farmed thousands of acres, only the King was a bigger land-owner. The clergy plotted and schemed with the best of them.
Although there must have been simple and holy men many were very worldly keeping mistress and no doubt taking an interest in choir and altar boys.
No wonder that Luther (who would have been a young monk at the time of this book) had his work cut out.

Vee, I just googled R. van der Weyden and it cannot be he, as his dates are far too early. I think artist Hans Holbein might fit, as his dates talley with those of the Painter in the book going to England (Although Holbein was born in Germany).Holbein, as you know, painted Henry VIII as well as other English royalty in the early 1500's.

You make an excellent point about Martin Luther!

I finally finished this novel last night. My daughter wants to reread it because she did go to all the churches and sites mentioned and says the book will mean much more. (She was very disappointed with Dan Brown, btw, because she checked out some of his Angels & Demons scenes in Rome -- and things were not as he stated in the book.)

Anyway, The Birth of Venus had an incredible hook in its prologue. I couldn't imagine how and why a nun would die like that and the snake tattoo was so intriguing. The explanation for it at the end of the book was a little disappointing; it just felt too contrived. (Can you imagine the infection problems?)

So the convent that Alessandro went to was realistic for the time period? I wondered about that because (at least in the beginning) it seemed rather enlightened and stimulating. Those rooms must have had thick walls too, in light of all that undiscovered sexual activity. ;-)

I'm echoing many of your thoughts, Captain B. I hadn't known the origin of "bonfire of the vanities" either. If you want to see a film that explores the church corruption theme, check out The Name of the Rose. We rented it a couple of months ago.

Okay, I've postponed this a bit, but here are my thoughts. I had written down a critique on Bibliophil, I wrote it in French however, and here is a rough translation of my review, in English (I'm doing this quickly so it is not quite polished):

Girl with a Pearl Earring, Girl in Hyacinth Blue, The Birth of Venus, all novels getting their title from a celebrated work of art. However, contrary to the first two, the plot of The Birth of Venus does not deal directly with Sandro Botticelli's painting, as we would perhaps expect. No doubt that a marketer thought it best to ride the current trendy wave in book titling.

The prologue is enticing: upon Sister Lucrezia's death, the young nuns preparing her body for burial discover a secret on her person. This leads us to believe that the novel will take a gothic, mysterious turn, but it's a red herring.
The secret will only revealed in the last chapter and it is so banal that it's best to forget it and concentrate rather on the real plot of the novel, which concerns the coming of age of Alessandra, birthname of the venerable Sister Lucrezia.

The author sets her novel in the Florence of the Renaissance, at the time of the political vacuum left by the death of Lorenzo de Medici, in which slides in the fundamentalist monk Savonarola, preaching an ascetism that he will eventually seek to impose to all. This novel is as much the story of Alessandra as it is that of Florence. Sarah Dunant's pen, beautiful and evocative, plunges us deep into the florentine 15th century: we smell the odors, we hear the noises, we are surrounded by the atmosphere of the markets, of the artisan's quarters, of the public piazzas. Botticelli, Brunelleschi, Michelangelo, Fra Fillipi Lippi form part of the background. For whom has a particular fascination for this city and this period, this novel is a real pleasure.

The plot itself concerns Alessandra, 15 year old teen, daughter of a clothier, who has a passion for drawing and painting, which she practices in secret to escape the disapproval of her family. A young painter engaged to paint the frescos of the family chapel exerts a growing fascination on her. However, under the threat of the arrival into the city of the troups of Charles II, she is forced to choose between marriage or the nunnery for the safety of her own person. She chooses to get married, but
her marriage will take a surprising turn. All these events are interlaced with the political events unfolding around her.

My opinion: I liked this novel for the portrait of Florence. The author is faithful to history, and very skilled in bringing out the atmosphere of the era. Although I found Alessandra somewhat precocious and politically savvy for a young girl confined at home, I was satisfied with the plot concerning her. The book summary on the inside jacket is very deceitful and combined with the prologue, created expectations which were not met, especially on the romantic and mystery...

And WRT to The Name of the Rose: has anyone read the Umberto Eco novel? Since I've seen the movie and know the ending, I'm wondering if I'd waste my time reading the novel. I had heard it was a good novel, and was disappointed to learn after the fact that the movie was based on a book.

Thanks for taking the time to translate your review for us, Venusia4ever!
I haven't read the Eco novel, either. I'd be interested in hearing what people thought of it.

I listened to this on my Christmas Road Trip, enjoyed it, and am delighted to find a thread on the book. In fact, vague awareness of the thread probably lead me to the novel. Thank you all.

The pitfalls to audiobooks are that I must read them without reference books and maps by my side and that I never learn how names are spelled. I so wish there was a companion guide to the art mentioned. Don't you think that is but a step away for e-books? Wasn't that the original idea behind hypertext?

Michaelangelo appears in the book. Remember that Painter is distraught that before he has truly begun his painting of a young male corpse a sculptor is back with a white (cedar, I think) cruifix. Painter recognises the superior talent and is jealous of the speed at which the sculptor works. In the text that same sculptor is the one who strongly advocates the study of the human body by examining corpses.

What, for me, the night police brought to mind were the Mutaween (Mutwawa'in and Mutawwain are other spellings. Google them and see what you find.), the morality police in Saudi Arabia. Remember when they beat school girls to prevent them from escaping a burning building because they were not wearing the proper scarves and robes? The Authority for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vices doesn't just go after women. Men who do not toe the line can be the subject of their wrath.

I confess that I have always been a teeny bit conflicted by Savonarola. My Protestant soul sympathizes with his cause at the same time as I am appalled by his methods and his hate. He was such a nasty man that I can't help but be glad he failed. At the same time, I suspect he laid the groundwork for Luther. Any religous scholars out there know?

Alessandra's approach to religion strikes me as particularly modern. Isn't her practice what we now think of as charismatic? Isn't her God-is-love vibe relatively recent?

When my book group read The Burden of Sister Margaret last year it became apparent to me that many convents were simply a way to warehouse excess women and had little to do with a vocation for Christ's work. So I wasn't totally surprised to learn of even more open convents in Tuscany. Would I have been happy in one? Perhaps, if I had lived a circumscribed life to that point.

Was Alessandra talented and merely untrained? Or was she such a lover of art that she believed she should be an artist? Does working her way out of depression by drawing suggest that she did indeed have an artist's talent?

Was Savonarola a serpent? He seduced the people with his vision of good and evil. He opened their eyes to, or brought to public discussion, the corruption of the Church. Didn't the serpent bring knowledge of good and evil?

Oh, yes. I was a little shocked by the graphic descriptions. But I suspect I've turned into a major prude in my middle age.

Chris, I'm no religious scholar, but everything I've ever read about Savonarola has suggested that he was but one of many steps that cleared the way for Martin Luther.

Had you any thoughts about who the "Painter" might actually be? Someone of the Northern Renaissance, for a start, but who, given his dates?

Was anyone else besides myself surprised by the skill of tatooing of the cloth dyers, as a subgroup of that society? And I was surprised to learn that Tatooing was even done in the Italy of that day, as I'd thought it originated in Polynesia.

Mary

I bought The Birth of Venus yesterday and intend to start reading it this evening.

Mary, the five-thousand-year-old mummy dubbed "Man in the Ice" that was found in Alpine Italy had tattoos. Also, the Celts who used woad to paint their faces also apparently stippled it into their skin, as did some Native Americans with their "paints" (not sure what exactly they were). Tattooing predates historical records, but it lost favor with "civilized" peoples, until recently. I have a book on anthropology somewhere that talks about the history of tattoos -- I'll see if I can find it.

Okay, I'm not but fifty pages into The Birth of Venus but already I'm so intrigued about the identity of "The Painter" that I've been searching for who he could have possibly been. The best candidate I've come up with so far is Jan Gossaert, alias Mabuse; date of birth unknown but it's thought to have been somewhere between 1462 and 1470; date of death also unknown but probably 1533-1541. Rogier van der Weyden was too early, since he was born c. 1399/1400 and died in 1464.

The following is from Olga's Galley site (link below):
Gossaert [Mabuse] played an important role in enriching a Northern Renaissance style with Italian features and is considered one of the first important Netherlandish "Romanists". (Netherlandish "Romanist" is a term used to denote a large group of leading Flemish artists of the first half of the 16th century, who integrated the classical imagery in their work. From this time on, painting mythological scenes and nudes as the main subject also became popular in the Netherlands.)

With so much unknown about Gossaert, a writer would be free to embroider him into a story set in Italy, since he obviously had Italian influence, perhaps even earlier than his known travels for Philip of Burgundy.

Of course I may be jumping the gun if, say, Dunant kills off "The Painter" or something later in the book. :-) But I can already see that I'm going to enjoy researching the things and people Dunant depicts and alludes to in this book.

Anyway, I'd be pleased to hear if my theory about Gossaeart seems to work or not.

Here is a link that might be useful: Olga's Gallery Gossaert Bio

Because she gave definitive clues about other painters in the book, but not Painter, I took him to be a conflation of what must have been many Northern artists who found their way into Italy during the period.

Is tatooing the Oldest Art after all? I love the sign I saw over a tatoo parlor: Yes, It still hurts. I'm afraid I see tatooing and piercing as forms of self-mutilation. I know, I know. But I chose to interpret it so in this book. Thus, she punished herself for her sins. And rather like Julia in Brideshead Revisited punished herself still further by denying herself her lover. Is that not ulitmatly what we women have learned to be the punishment we all bear for Eve listening to that snake?

Chris, you're probably right that Painter is a conflation. But maybe Gossaert was one of Dunant's inspirations -- he seems to have pretty good qualifications.

Oh ho! I've just gone through Alessandra's and Cristoforo's wedding night. I laughed at Cristoforo's reply when Alessandra asked him if she might be pregnant. He himself laughed: "God. Let's hope so." I think, in spite of everything, I already like Cristoforo Langella.

Charles is almost to the city limits. There's been another body found -- this one on the cathedral steps. Alessandra has Painter's drawing in her marriage chest. Things are rocking along...and I may be up all night! I haven't been this taken with a work of fiction in a long time.

Maybe the Painter is a composite of more than one artist-- perhaps of Gossaert as well as Hans Holbein, who did go to England, in reality.

Frieda, LOL, you are captivated by a work of fiction after such a long time, as one non fiction lover to another....:)

The tatoo people in BOV were a social subgroup, thus I would gather that tatooing for the upper classes would have been forbidden at that time in Catholic Italy. Thus, the action of Alessandra carries even more clout, as a rebellion, in my view, and as a memorial.

Mary

Well, as I predicted I read until the wee hours -- until I was so sleepy that the next thing I knew I woke up with the book on my face (I shouldn't have lain down). I finished about half an hour ago. Right now I don't know what to think really, but I'm somewhat disappointed.

Historical fiction often leaves me frustrated. Actually, it seems to be only historical fiction written in the last quarter of a century, or so, that bothers me. I'm not sure why this is. The historical fiction of, for example, my beloved Daphne du Maurier never let me down, other than I was sorry to see the story end. But the newer crop of historical-fiction writers don't seem to have a sustaining vitality, even when the research is obviously extensive and sound: I had this problem with Sharon Kay Penman's books and Michel Faber's The Crimson Petal and the White that I read in January of last year, just to name a couple. Penman's and Faber's are good books, but there's always something either intrusive or lacking: usually a too-modern voice or point of view and endings -- gads! writers just can't seem to write good endings anymore. I would attribute my dissastifaction to my own jadedness, but I really don't think that's the case: I'm just as eager nowadays to get lost in another time as I always was.

And it was the ending of The Birth of Venus that was its undoing for me. I really think Dunant did wonders with most of her characters: any writer who can create a Cristoforo and make him sympathetic and not despicable, or limn the complexity of Alessandra's mother...well, I'm likely to remember these characters for a long time. I have a bit of a problem with Erila, though -- heavens, she acquired Whoopi Goldberg's face and sarcastic delivery at some point in my mind and I could never shake that, but I don't know whose fault it is, Dunant's or my own. And the Painter...I just could never get a clear picture of him at all.

Venusia, I think, previously mentioned all the red herrings. For a non-mystery, this story had more than it needed, in my opinion. Frankly I don't see much purpose in the corpse-count. And the handling of Savonarola's growing influence: just about the time I thought Dunant was going to give us some insight, she veered away. I don't mind reading between the lines or going to other sources in some cases, but if a writer is telling her story with a historical hinge I don't want to be left with the feeling that I don't know a damned thing about Savonarola that I didn't know before. But I'm getting nitpicky now.

This story reminds me of what Harry Lime (Orson Welles) in "The Third Man" said:
"In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock." Substitute Florence for Italy and the Medicis for...

A question I forgot to ask above about Cristoforo's collection of statues: He told Alessandra about the fake that he kept that he however considered worth the price he paid. I got the impression, though, that some of the other statues were "special" and kept expecting a revelation that they were the works of someone we would recognize today -- Michelangelo maybe. But it was never revealed who the sculptor was, even after Cristoforo bequeathed everything to Alessandra. Or did I miss something somewhere?

My! I just reread what I wrote in my previous post and I sure sounded sour. Yes, I was a bit let down, but I really liked this book quite a lot! A freshly read book probably shouldn't be reacted to -- a few days marinading and cogitating will probably render a mellower opinion. :-)

I read this book when it first came out and remember suggesting fellow RP'ers might enjoy it, so some of the story has faded from my memory; which doesn't take long these days.
The overiding feeling with which the book left me is one of insecurity, constantly having to be on one's guard, always looking over a shoulder, much as it must be for those living in modern day Baghdad or Kabul, especially if you happen to have had the misfortune to have been born female.
Frieda, I thought the statue thing suggested that the subject matter may have been homoerotic if that is the right word. Something that if found by one of the spies who were forever crawling out of the woodwork, could have landed the owner in serious trouble.
I don't think there is any point in speculating on who the 'painter' might have been, anymore than wondering if Alessandra's family were based on true characters.
I was speaking on the phone to my brother and mentioned this book as he knows Dunant, and he said how she still has her small 'flat' in Florence where she moved to do research and suck up the atmosphere, and not to forget that it is just meant to be read and enjoyed as a good story.
I will certainly try and read another of her works, if just for contrast.

"to reasearch and suck up the atmosphere" - yes, Dunant did a good thing with the atmosphere, IMO. I felt so aware of the city, the churches, the cobbled streets, the inner courtyard of Alexandra's family. Dunant earns my respect for her ability to include the essence of Florence in this book.

I don't think there is any point in speculating on who the 'painter' might have been, anymore than wondering if Alessandra's family were based on true characters.

Ah, but, Vee, if there's an opaqueness to a character, as there is with the Painter IMO, I'm naturally curious if there's a way to see him more clearly. Besides speculating about who or what influenced a writer is fun -- I think that ever since it dawned on me that Honor Harris was the only "unreal" main character in The King's General and practically every other character, right down to those danged Champernownes, was based on an actual person, I've been fascinated with the research behind a story. Alessandra's family I can accept as created from wholecloth (hee! Ã propos the family of a cloth merchant), but then there's the Lorenzo connection.

But you're right, most speculation doesn't add a great deal to a story -- unless it piques a reader in some way.

Yes, I think you're right about the statues being of an erotic nature. I'm unclear, though, as to what happened to them: Did Cristoforo spirit them away to join him and Tomaso?

I absolutely agree that Dunant did an outstanding job with atmosphere, especially the furtiveness of night, and her depiction of Renaissance Florence.

I just spent four hours of my day (when I was supposed to be doing other more responisble things) devouring the final chapters of this book. I am so excited now to find a discussion thread on it! I've never finished a book feeling so thrilled and so dissatisfied with the abundance of unresolved questions. As others have said, Dunant does a masterful job with her description of place and character development -- Cristoforo as a sympathetic, anguished individual was truly poignant.

I was also frustrated at the sudden lapse in the Savanorola story line, as well as the exceptionally brief resolution to the murders that threaded through the book. Such a cursory explanation for them made that part of the story line feel arbitrary. But, on the other hand, I suppose this was Alessandra's story.

I think an investigation of the identity of "the painter" IS a useful one, even if a specific person does not exist. It's fun to speculate who Dunant may have modeled her characters after. At the book's close I thought immediately of Orazio and Artemisia Gentileschi as possible models for the painter and Plautilla (the daughter). Artemisia's biography has some correspondence with Plautilla's, even though she was born a century later. She, also, is born at the turn of a century, her mother dies when she is twelve, and I believe she and her father spend some time in England, although I could be wrong about that.

It's amazing how pertinent this novel is to current-day politics, as well. Certainly makes us grateful for the freedoms we enjoy, aware of how easily they can be taken from us, and empathetic to people around the world who don't have the same opportunities.

I agree that searching my history books for connections to a novel I've just read is one of the joys of reading. And truthfully, from the beginning I expected Painter to turn out to be someone I'd recognize. Dunant teased us with the scene, I think it was in the Chapel when Painter was ill, in which Alessandra notes that she has never learned his name and something happens to distract them from that line of query.

I am strongly reminded of a book, a novel, I read maybe 25 or 30 years ago that dealt with Lorenzo, Savonarola, and some monk with an incredible memory system. It was my first exposure to Savonarola. Does this ring a bell with anyone else? I'm thinking the monk was a real person.

As I said above, I found the ending to be contrived and was disappointed, it just seemed so implausible. It coloured my feeling about the book and made me question just how accurate Dunant was in her depicition of Florence during this time.
A question for the history buffs: Was the rest of the book faithful to the period? I'm thinking in terms of daily life, etc. The characters had a modern feel to them and I was wondering if they were truly representitive of that time. Are there other books on this subject that you would recommend?

Janalyn, you and others might enjoy Lucrezia Borgia: Life, Love and Death in Renaissance Italy by Sarah Bradford. I have yet to read it but it received a good right up in the 'Daily Telegraph', although some of the folk at the 'Amazon' site wanted more of a 'story' and less historical info!

The Birth of Venus was certainly worth the reading time, though it had its drawbacks - very hard to avoid cultural anachronisms, even harder to avoid that clumsy clunking down of actual historical facts - few authors do it seamlessly. Dunant did well on both scores, but one was always aware of the genre.
The characters were of the slightly-too-type-cast-to-be-believable sort, but she did manage to do up a zippy plot, a good rather light read.

Bringing this up for those who are just now reading and wanting to discuss it.

Just finished the book, and my quest to find out who "the painter" is led me here... In my research, knowing next to nothing about Florentine renaissance art, it seems the most likely candidate (despite some inaccuracies) would be Fillipo Lippi. He was brought up in a friary, worked for some time in Florence, and had an illicit affiar with a nun named Sister Lucrezia... They had a daughter named Allesandra... (and a son...) Seems like a good mix of details to make him a likely candidate?

Has Sarah Dunant written any other books? I devoured this novel about 4/5 months ago and its still fresh in my memory. I loved and felt dissatisfied with the book for the same reasons ,which most of you have mentioned. I loved it for the realistic portrayal of renaissance Florence. The political backdrop was well-done and I really enjoyed her characters. They were 3 dimensional characters that you actually identified with even though they lived in another age and time. But just couldnt get over the ending....it was such a let-down.
But, I really enjoy these historical fiction which have art interlaced in them...(I just read Susan Vreeland as well). So, I definitely wouldnt mind reading another of SD's books.

just wanted to say i liked the book too. I went to Italy 10 years ago (was it that long?), and visited florence, and this book made me (along with DaVinci code, and i will be reading rule of four next) want to go back to Florence :)

I loved in Florence that was an empty tomb for Michaelangelo (in Santa Croce, i think). forgive me it was ages ago, but i thought that was really neat.

I've very much enjoyed reading all these scholarly posts! I read this a couple of months ago, and liked it quite a lot (altho must admit I found a little bit of the modern sensibilities/mindsets that crept in a bit jarring). I am generally a fan of historical fiction, but try to keep in mind that it is fiction that I'm reading, that I am doing this for enjoyment, not necessarily for historical reference material. I find it can be both a launching point for researching the time period that I'm reading about, and a connection to other times and events. For instance, I agree with a former post that I did see an uncomfortable parallel between the bonfire/religious fervors to other more current events, but also other historical times.
mgerken73, I more recently (just in the last few weeks) read The Rule of Four, and found that fun and absorbing, but less plausible! I still haven't read the DaVinci Code , but will eventually. (Sort of letting the hubbub die down).

Haven't been to Italy yet, but boy is it ever on my list of places to go...

take care
litlbit

I read this book way back in October... but I disliked it so much that I hesitated adding my comments to this thread until now.
It seemed contrived to me...although some of the descriptions of Florence were well done and a few of the personalities were life-like, it seemed the author was working from a list of what must be included to insure a best seller.
Right now I am reading another book about the 1500's in Florence that seems so much more alive and real. I have been contrasting the 2 books as I read and "Birth of Venus" comes out a bad second.
The 'erotica' that seems to be a requirement these days was a little too realistic and left me feeling as if I had invaded their privacy.
However, the last part of the book in the convent really bothered me. The writing was, to me, quite different from the first part of the book. It was almost as if it had originally been intended for another book and was adapted to complete this story. Actually, it reminded me of the Hippie days....the 1960's, with the rebellion against family morals that was so much a part of 'flower power'.
I have read descriptions of wealthy women who were confined to convents about the time of the book, but the looseness of rules and regulations as described in this story does not fit with any research I have ever come across.
I have been asking myself if perhaps I was not in the correct frame of mind to enjoy the book....but, no, I really do not want to even read it again.
Lina.

laa laa, what is the book you are currently reading? It sounds like something I would enjoy.

Captainbackfire,
I was going to possibly start another thread to mention the book, so I am glad you asked.
Please excuse me for getting 'off-topic' here.....
The author is Michaela Roessner...the book, "The Stars Dispose"....copyright date 1997. I found the book in the library, so in case you can't find it..here's the publisher's web site from the front of the book (hope it is still an active web site);
http://www.tor.com
It is described as a work of fiction and the characters are either fictitious or "are used fictitiously". The premise of the book is quite similar to "Birth of Venus".
Perhaps the fact that this is a work of fiction gives the author the lee-way to make the book seem real.
She has evidently written several other books which I plan to look for. One is a sequel to this one...I can't recall the name..it had the word stars also in it.
My only criticism(?)is that in places, she 'drops names'. I don't know if the heirarchy of family names are factual, but it seems that they are, and she is including the most prominent families of Florence.. I enjoy this as well as the warmth of her character descriptions.
I hope you find it and enjoy it.
Lina.

Thank you, Lina. I've added it to my list and will look for it. If I can think to do it, I will report in on how easy (or not) it was for me to find.

I've continued to think about your other comments on BOV. You said you disliked it almost immediately, and were certain that Dunant had worked from a checklist of sure bets to insure a best seller.

I'm trying to understand how 2 relatively well-read people can have such diverse takes on the same book. Since I don't know you, I will tell you a couple of things about me that might have relevance. First, I went into reading BOV wanting to like it. I'd just returned from a trip to Florence, and was still in the 'afterglow' of the experience. I felt an intimacy with the places, and was willing to be led through the city with Alessandra. Second, I typically don't read a book through a critic's eyes. I think I am a bit gullible, and I think I am willing to give an author the chance to draw me in. I don't often totally pan a book. I guess I am easy to please. Maybe one could say I am not terribly discerning! When I think of the books that I really detest, and felt like I'd wasted valuable time reading them, the list is really not very long.

Now what do you make of that?

I'm trying to understand how 2 relatively well-read people can have such diverse takes on the same book.

captainbackfire, I've often been perplexed with the same thing. But instead of getting too off the subject of The Birth of Venus, I am going to start a thread that will, maybe, explore this conundrum.

Captainbackfire,
I think you brought up a very valid point in considering that a person's background may color the way they feel about a book or,of course, any work of art.
In return, let me explain a little of the influences that may have affected my response to the book, (B of V).
My background is in Rome. I went to Rome in my early 20's,stayed there for about a year before going to Switzerland where I met my future husband..a Roman. We return to Rome at least every other year, but I have only been to Florence once with my husband. He showed me the historic center and I was busy snapping photos. Perhaps I have always had a guilty feeling about Firenze, since I was using the older camera on which the counter for the number of shots taken no longer works. After our return to Rome, I discovered that I had no film in the camera...therefore, no photos of Florence.
My studies were about the Etruscans rather than the ruling families of the Renaissance, but I am becoming more and more interested in this history, since we bought a very small apartment in a hill town near Rome that is centered around a castle built by the Orsini family.
Originally I liked the novel, but I dislike gruesome descriptions and it was at that point I began to not enjoy it. Also, I am Catholic, and wonder many times at the excesses that are attributed to the church at the Renaissance time in history. I would be interested in finding whether the author has a reliable reference or research for her description of the convent. It sounds really implausible.
On the other hand, I for some reason, do not feel the same about Roessner's book, even though there are some scenes dealing with pure fantasy in this book. I looked her up on Google last night and she is evidently a science- fiction writer,although this book I am reading seems to be primarily historical.
I can understand how you might feel nostalgia when reading the book...I have felt the same when reading books set in Rome. I do not have enough familiarity with Florence. I am sure this colored my re-action.

Lina.

Just back from a shopping trip, and am surprised by the interest this little discussion has sparked.

Lina, the trip to Florence was part of one of those "Italy in 10 Days" tours, so I spent time in Rome, too. It was the 3rd such trip I've taken since '99. I serve as a chaperone on student trips - a very inexpensive way to travel. If I ever do another one, may I look you up?

Back to the subject...I am married to a Catholic, and we raised our children in the church. I have never formally converted, but attend as regularly as many of our parish. I have also wondered about the role of the church at this time. I've given some thought to looking up some of the titles in Dunant's bibliograhy of related readings, but have never gotten around to it.

Lina, a couple of books that have been recommended to me, but I have not, as yet, managed to read are Lucrezia Borgia; Life, Love and Death in Renaissance Italy by Sarah Bradford and Reformation: Europe's House Divided by Diarmaid MacCulloch. One or two others might come to mind.
This is a period of history I studied in some detail both at a Catholic school and later at College and there was 'plenty' wrong with the rich and over-powerful Church during the late Medieval period, although, of course there were still many simple truly holy men within it. An Italian nun-friend has an interesting book about nuns in Venice. She is probably glued to the TV, if not in Rome (the Pope's enthroning happening as I write) right now, but I will check the title and email it to you asap. btw we have a new email address.

Vee,
Thanks for your suggestions about the books dealing with the time frame we are talking about. I have started a list. Now I need the time.
And Captainbackfire,
I would be happy to communicate with you about Italy, any time you are going there. Sadly, we do not go in the summers anymore, because my husband hates the heat, but we plan to be there every winter.
In Rome we used to know many good restaurants, but need to catch up on which are still good. I'm not really conversant with all the museums. When you are visiting family there, it is like pulling teeth to get some-one to go to a museum with you.
As to the book, "The Stars Dispose". I am about half-way through and it is more and more written in the genre of fantasy...although, an argument could be made that women of that time still practiced super-natural arts (and superstitions) from the ancient Roman times. This might qualify the story as historical...I am not sure about this part. It still is quite an interesting book.
Frieda, I like the new thread you started on divergent opinions.
Lina.

Just read this book over the past few days. It was interesting to see what you all thought on this thread. I liked the book for the way that it brought the time and place to life. I also enjoyed what it said about the artistic process not being an artist myself. It had too many disturbing elements for me to reread it though. I also felt the ending was not realistic but then it is fiction.

I have Romola by George Eliot in my TBR, about the same place and era. Has anyone read it? It looks good, but don't know if I'm up to tackling the Victorian style of writing.

Hi Susan,

I just finished Birth of Venus this past Thursday (7/21) and while I enjoyed the story, loved the writing and appreciated the accurate art history references, I was also dissapointed with the ending. Her writing style changed somewhere in the last few chapters...

Though the tatoo was anselary, I thought it memorialized her love for the artist and what they shared together while emphasisizing her love of art and rebellion.

What I really had a problem with was why didn't she leave the convent to travel with her "family?" She took so many other chances that went against the "cultural grain" of the time, why commit suicide in a convent. It's bit of a hypocrisy in that she stays in the convent to absolve her sins (my interpretation for staying behind), yet lies about having breast cancer and commits suicide (a big no,no in the eyes of the catholic church) among other sins she's commited within the convent walls...

It almost felt like the author was "done" by the end of the book and didn't put the same energy into the finish. The last line about "being glad to have been part of the chorus" was so contrived and didn't match the rest of the writing style throughout the book!

Anyway, I guess for such a magnificent story (I really did enjoy it) I was just very dissapointed in the ending. Your thoughts?

Danielle

Danielle,

You've articulated so well the problems with the end of the book. The last part did feel very contrived. I never like a story that ends with a suicide because it seems like such a cop out. Choosing to live out your life takes the real courage. And death is an experience none of us will miss out on eventually. Your point about her not leaving with her family is well taken to. She was a rebel and a rather successful one at that. I think you've got something with it being some kind of penance, but that does not seem consistent with her personality. It does seem likely that the author was running out of steam.

What I liked best about the book was what I learned about the Renaissance. A book I liked better was The Passion of Artemesia by Susan Vreeland about an actual artist who delt with the pain in her life thru her painting. It takes place somewhat later in the Renaissance period in Italy.

Susan

Hi Again,

Thanks for confirming I'm not crazy; clearly the ending was bugging me :) "The Passion.." sounds like a good next read, thank you.

As for George Eliot's "Romola" I haven't read it, but amazon.com has some good, detailed reviews. I would suggest checking them out before jumping in.

Happy Reading,
Danielle

Finally, I've found people to discuss (or rant) this book with!

I loved the beginning, I couldn't stop reading the book, but eventually I had to catch some sleep. but after going through the middle of the book, it was starting to go downhill.

I loved the character The Painter best, and I was a bit hurt when the author wrote that Alessandra had forgotten all about him (more than once if I remember correctly). It doesn't seem realistic to forget someone that you've fallen in love with, slept with, and who is the father of your child.

And like many others, the end was a big disappointment, so I won't go into the details since many people have already pointed them out. But I was most bothered when she had made The Painter and Alessandra entirely different people after Alessandra left to the convent. I know that there should be character growth, but the two were not themselves at all. The Painter was too confident, and Alessandra was so shy? I don't what it was exactly, but she too was too different.

Wow, it felt good to get all of that of my chest, I feel much better!

I absolutely fell in love with this book, The beginning especially,It seemed to pull me in. the middle (i think it was the middle) of the story, and the compassion she tryed not to show during the whole ordeal with the painter being taken away I liked it really gave me a sense of just how much she cared for The Painter. I also liked Christoforo and Alessandras relationship, I think he fueled her mind, I felt like I could feel the pang of jelousy that Alessandra felt when Christoforo was with Tomaso, I think Sarah Dunant wrote those emotions of longing between Alessandra and The Painter, and the jelousy she felt well.

I was a bit disapointed with the ending, and it turned my stomach when Alessandra said she had forgotten about The Paint, I agree with Guess I dont think its very realistic that she would forget someone she had fallen in love with, especially if her daughter looks so much like him and has some of his traits. I think The Painters new found confidence sort of took away from the ending as well. It seemed to me the rolls between The Painter and Alessandra had almost been switched. I thought the writing at the beginning of the book differed, it was more passionate, and the ending, to me, seemed rushed.

Back to thing I enjoyed about the book. I liked how the city had an effect on the story, and the on goings, I found it to add to the realistic sense of the book, I thought most of the character were fairly well developed, I really got a sense of the main characters personalities.

I wish she would have spent more time and slowed down at the ending, adding more of her painting the chapel.It seemed to consume a large portion of her life. The one part that keeps bothering me is the ending and how The Painter acts, and the way Alessandra forgets about The Painter.

All in all I enjoyed the book very much.

Does anyone remember if in the book the painter has a name? I vaguely remember her asking his name but I think he never said anything.

Recently I found this book at home and thought I should give it a go.
It is an amazing book and took me around two days to read! This is very unusual for me!
It pulled me in straight away and i just couldnÂt stop reading it.
It is very cleverly written and all of the aspects gel well together. I enjoyed the historical nature and also the use of imagery that flowed throughout. The characters were also great and the book doesnÂt fault.
I donÂt know if this is happening already but I think that with the right interpretation it would be an amazing film (I think It could be one of very few films that do their books justice)

Lisa =)

I just finished The Birth of Venus a couple of hours ago. The first chapter immediately grabbed my attention, and I had trouble putting it down. As I read the book though, I became more and more distressed. There was a very, dark tone throughout this book; which made me feel as though everything in Alessandra's life was very hopeless.

I found the most comforting character in this story the painter (after I realized he was not the crazy guy disemboweling the sinful). I accepted this book for all its darkness, but the ending of Alessandra's story was really distressing. Throughout the book, Alessandra had been a strong, resilient character, but that she would meekly kill herself while her loved ones still lived, seemed grossly out of character to me. Does anyone else feel this way?

My reaction to this ending may be the romantic in me screaming "No's" as the now meek, pathetic heroine lets the man who is her soul mate take their daughter and leave forever. But come on! There is no way that character would have sat back and let that happen! Or killed herself after the fact! I would be overjoyed if Miss Dunant wrote a new ending and republished BoV. But for now, I will console myself by thinking up a more suitable ending before I sleep.

who do you think the painter is in this novel.. I'm having a hard time finding a straight answer for this question.

ddlova. As was discussed above, I don't think there is a 'straight answer' to the identity of the painter. And there doesn't really need to be, does there? He is just a young Flemish artist working in Florence at a time when there would have been many such men in the rich cities of Italy.

Isn't it amazing that this thread reappears every few years. I've just re-read it and noticed all the RP posters no longer here and the interesting 'chat' and sharing of information that used to go on.

Someone asked about further books by Dunant. I read her Sacred Hearts a while ago. Set in the latter half of the sixteenth century in an Italian convent where girls from 'good homes' but who's parents couldn't afford a dowry, were 'removed to/dumped'. I think SD has got all her facts right as there were far more females in the marriage market than young men wanting a wife, especially a poor one! The story is set against the Catholic Church's 'Counter Reformation' when the lax habits of the past centuries were being tightened up and women could no longer treat their convents as finishing schools or fancy hotels.

In upperclass Florentine families of that era, only one daughter and one son were permitted to marry. This was done to preserve the family wealth. The unmarried sons were allowed to pursue careers and keep mistresses, and so they lead pretty normal lives. The daughters though were all shuffled off into convents whether they had any religious vocation or not. Given that cruel practice, it is hard to begrudge those unwilling nuns some comforts and even luxuries.

Rosefolly