so he keeps doing stuff you don't like, & you're worn out & frazzled, & it makes no difference to him? He isn't really arguing, he isn't even really paying attention to you, he's just whining around in circles to wear you down, changing a few words to fit the problem. He's in control: He blames other people for stuff he does, he hits first & says it's the other person's fault, he's focused on his own wants & desires to the exclusion of everything else, no one else is important except as relates to him, he does whatever he wants (or doesn't do whatever he doesn't want), & if he gets caught, he goes on the offensive, taking control of the situation & accusing the other person of victimizing him, putting the other person on the defensive, & if you keep pushing, he 'promises' it 'won't happen again' ... If he were an adult, what would you call that? & he's learning to be an adult right now, every day. "After almost 2 years of therapy, you'd think he would know better by now?" I don't think therapists are any more savvy or less naive than anyone else, but I do think it sounds like he's learned a lot from therapy; he's probably honed his skills on the therapist! When you're dealing with anybody who can talk in circles & wear you down, *you* have to control the situation, & one way of doing it is to halt these long conversations/arguments: As long as he's talking, he hasn't lost: Once he wears you down, he's won. Every time he gets away with it, his manipulative behavior is reinforced; he's being *trained* to blame others, whine, complain about his "victimhood". I once had a significant-other type guy (don't know what to call him, more than boyfriend but less than ex) who would say to his son "this isn't a dialog, be quiet." Then he would gaze at Jason, not responding to anything Jason said, until it got quiet. Only then would he give instructions, & if the instructions weren't followed, there were consequences. With Jason, most things that we considered punishment were nothing to him; time-outs in his room gave him more time to read or draw or design games, & he was so independent that taking away, say, a play day with other children, was something he didn't relate to at all... The most devastating, & therefore effective, thing his dad did was to put Jason's computer time on a merit basis, complete with a chart & gold, silver, & blue stars & one black marker. Jason had to earn computer time via stars, & a black mark neutralized, I forget, one silver star or something. Since Jason was a computer geek at the age of 7, that got his attention! Stars were earned by certain behaviors that were charted on a poster taped to Jason's bedroom door; he had to get up the first time his mother called in the morning to get a blue star, getting through a school day without altercation was a silver star, getting through a school week was a gold star, etc. Whining was 1 black mark, fighting was 2 black marks. (or something like that) & whining & complaining didn't get him anywhere, in fact it earned him a black mark. Every silver star was equal to 2 blue stars, if he had 3 silver stars (or 6 blue or whatever), that was a gold star. Each blue star was 15 minutes computer time, silver was a half hour, a gold star was 90 minutes, "payable" on the week-end only. One interesting thing about this is that Jason & his father got along great with this system, but his mother hated it, cried about it, said poor Jason was just being creative & brilliant & so forth (he really was brilliant & creative), & that he should be treated differently from other children because he *was* different from them. So he kept doing to his mother the things that he no longer did to his father. Whatever you do, this boy's father needs to be right there, right with you, talking-to-her-is-the-same-as-talking-to-me, hands-on, absolutely committed to bring up his son to become a strong & decent grown man. I wish you the best.

I'm going to try to ignore the things TOS is writing about my situation b/c I know she is just trying to cause problems. I truly don't understand why you would try to do that in a place where you should offer support and encouragement, but whatever... But I must say...of course I realize that the destruction of a family is not humorous. I was just trying to be a little lighthearted. Their marriage has been over for years. As I've written several times now, my former husband passed away. After his death I found out he had several "girlfriends" on the side. You think that didn't destroy me??? Believe me, I could write a book about destruction. Anyway... Thank you, Kathline, for your response to my post. I will admit wholeheartedly that my attitude needs to change, and that's one reason I am here. I'm hoping that by hearing other stories of struggles, listening to what others have been through, it will help me to face my own problems with a better heart. Yes, I admit that I wrote that I don't like Sarah right now. She has lied to me and about me SO much that it makes me physically ill. She has stolen money, clothes, make-up and other belongings from me and 2 of my children, she has called my 12 year old disabled child "retard" right to his face on several occasions. And it's not 1 or 2 times...this is consistent behavior. It is VERY HARD to like someone when they constantly hurt you. Sarah knows nothing about the fact that we have looked into residential treatment for her. Nothing! We have also NEVER told her that we don't want her, although her own mother has several times. At one point a few months ago, Sarah was mad at dh and me for grounding her for something and she announced, "I want to go live with mommy." She called her mother and directly there on the phone her monther said, "nope, you can't come live here. You cause too many problems and I don't want you." I felt horrible for Sarah, at the same time understanding how bm felt (b/c Sarah, if possible, often acts worse at her mom's house than she does here). We have to check her bags when she comes home on Sunday nights from her mom's house and more often than not, she has stolen something from there. So yes, Sarah is aware that he bm doesn't like her or want her to live with her, but as I said, she knows nothing about us looking at residential homes and I have NEVER said, "I don't like you, Sarah." Now she might get the feeling that I don't, but isn't that something she needs to earn, kind of like my trust. Would you "like" someone that continued to steal and lie from you CONSTANTLY??? I hope I'm not coming across like I just want people to agree with me, b/c I am VERY open to hearing all opinions. And if you think I'm horrible b/c I said I don't like Sarah much right now, it's okay. Believe me, I feel pretty bad myself and I'm trying to change that. I'm just so frustrated in this situation. Thanks everyone! :)

SS11 has gone through several stages like that. He's in one now, actually. Our approach has been multipronged: - We remind him that he wants privileges (such as being allowed to go to the store alone) but that privileges come with showing maturity and responsibility. Lying doesn't show those things and makes it hard for us to believe he is ready for the things he would like to do or have. - We've had him write apology letters or write a list of 5 reasons that lying is wrong. None of the reasons can relate to getting caught or being punished. - We've explained to him that we greatly prefer to trust him. It's easier and happier for everyone if we don't have to police his every move. We've presented it like this: "A__, you don't like when we nag you and check on your every move, right? You like when we trust you and give you your own space. Well, when you lie to us about simple things, like brushing your teeth, it shows us that we NEED to be nagging you and checking on your every move. If we could trust that you'd brush your teeth when asked to, we wouldn't have to pester you about and it wouldn't turn into a fight. If there's no fight, then everybody is happier." Then he sees that our actions (nagging him) are a direct result of his actions (lying to us) and is more willing to change his actions. - We issue rewards for completed tasks. If he wants to watch a show that will be end a bit later than his usual bedtime, so we say "If you are ALL ready for bed BEFORE the show starts, then yes, you can stay up late to watch it. So that means you have to have your backpack ready for tomorrow, be showered with your teeth brushed, and in your pajamas. If ANY of those things aren't done by the time the show starts, then no show. Deal?" He knows that we mean it. If he skips something, he won't be watching and it will be his own fault. - This one is underhanded and a bit manipulative. We don't use it regularly. SS is always really worried about what other people think - he doesn't do well in social situations or make friends very easily, which is too bad because he's a nice boy and I've seen that he is a loyal friend. So we've reminded him that people don't like liars. We've said "People don't want to be friends with someone who lies to them. No one wants a friend they can't trust; they want a friend who will be truthful." For this case, we thought a little peer pressure might be a good thing, although it isn't a technique I'd usually advocate. - For personal hygiene issues, we've shown him pictures of gum disease and so on. He also doesn't like to brush his teeth or bathe. We explained that we don't tell him to do these tasks to spite him, but so that he is healthy and well. "Yup, brushing your teeth is a pain in the butt. But we don't make you do it to be mean to you or to think up clever ways to torment you. We make you brush your teeth because it's important for your health. ~Insert explanation of gum disease, complete with photos, here~. Now do you understand why it's important for you to brush your teeth?" We've had to do this roughly once a year since he was about 8. - And, of course, we try to praise and be positive for the things he does when asked and for telling the truth. To be honest, I get a bit frustrated with having to tell an 11yo that he did a good job because he put his dirty clothes in the laundry basket, or praise what a very good choice it was that he told us the truth about something... But he needs it, so I do it. I think it will continue to be an ongoing battle for us, for the same reason you just mentioned. SS doesn't really understand cause and effect or that actions cause reactions.

Molly, i feel for you and i know exactly how you feel when your Dh gets depressed over this. My dh and I are in the same situation. His kids come eow. Now they're average once every 2 months or so... It bothers my Dh alot but i told him its not his fault for several factors. 1. Its natural at their age to want to be with their friends. (his kids are 10 and 13) Especially the 13 year old is now always talking about her friends and now makes alot of plans with her friends..she skipped coming for 2 months. She showed up last visit but next visit she says she not coming..she just wants to plan something with her friends. Your dh should not take this personal. We all didnt' want to hang around our parents at that age. 2. BM does not encourage them to come and we do know from reliable sources and the kids that she downgrades us....due ot her own insecurities etc..etc..wont waste time discussing her. We have a toddler ourselves and yet its difficult. My son is much younger and cannot do the same activities. The connection with their dad is an on and off one..again due to BM poisoning...but also after the years of let down my Dh also has given up and just doesnt' make much of an effort anymore either. That is his side and his fault and yet i understand the burden. I saw show last night and it shed alot of light and these kids go through alot of pain, confusion, anger...and at their age they're also dealing with peer pressure and hormones. The only advice i can give you is based on what i do. Support your husbands emotional needs, stand by his side and keep doing activities eow regardless if they come or not. Dont' revolve around their world. My Sk have cancelled so many things, from tickets , to different shows, to family pictures. After a while resentment builds up. Until you just let go and say, you come eow to visit. If you dont want to be part of this family , no one forces you but its yoru decision , your loss. Life continues and you just have to plan things around your core family not counting them in 100%. When they decide to come ,you just add more people to the party. Thats it. Your core family with you, your husband and son should be your focus. Dont wait by the phone eow like i did and my husband. Its an emotional rollercoaster i got off of 2 years ago and have no intention of hopping back on. My attitude is if they come, great, if they dont, whatever, life goes on. Your husband like mine will have a better relationship when they get older. They're growing, they wnat their friends now, its all about them. and there is nothing wrong with that. Let them breath and just let them know the door is open.