martin, that was my time at the Univ as well, and I remember thinking how strange that attitude was. Even then I knew there were more important issues than opening a door for someone

> women's groups are thinking of giving the Equal Right Amendment another shot

Actually that has been introduced every year, but it gets very little to no chance of going somewhere. I'd like to see them try again. Its a different age, maybe now people will see its needed (yes there has been progress without it, but there are still too many instances of women being discriminated against for their gender)

Margaret Drabble had a wonderful line in her Realms of Gold I believe it was. Her character noted (paraphrased from a quarter century memory) that equality didn't just mean women in the board rooms, it also meant women shoveling fecal matter in the sewers.

Sarah Canary, I always wondered what one did with a gender studies degree. Now I know.

Thanks for all the interesting comments.

I don't think over here the 'Women's Movt' was ever as big as in the US. I have heard it said (in a talk on the BBC) that in the Post War USA women had many more opportunities to go to college and/or university than females did in the UK, but once they had finished their studies there was little for them to do in the Man's World and they tended to follow the traditional marriage/family route although the extra education had left them searching for more.

Mary, what is consciousness raising? Does it mean sitting round discussing age-old grievances of men v women or does it involve any positive action? As Chris mentioned there is nothing like getting of the fence/backside and playing the opposition at their own game.

Cindy, are you saying that in the USA there is no official policy of 'gender pay equality'? Please explain.
Over here it has technically been in place for about 30 years but still women lag behind in real terms.
Because they tend to take more time off to have and raise families and because they are more likely to do part-time jobs, women's pay lags behind that of men by about 40% for part time and by approx 17% for full time workers.
Even among the high-flyers it has been found that women are often paid considerably less than their male co-workers.
It is claimed that often the UK companies can get away with it because of the English habit of NOT discussing money . . . fine to talk about one's job but not to mention how much one earns! Polite or inhibited?

Glad to see Martin mentioned our old Aussie friend Germaine Greer. From being a fire-brand ranting on about female rights and sex (and more sex) she has started to calm down and until recently had a w/end column on jam making, wild flower growing and country living. Could she have run out of steam?

Veer, I had not heard that about Germaine Greer.

However, we won't have true equality until women can embrace traditional domestic arts without someone questioning their feminism, as well as enter previously male dominated activities without someone questioning their femininity!

Rosefolly

Vee, I'll jump in about the equal pay situation. We have the EEOC, or Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, which is the federal commission which oversees and enforces laws pertaining to discriminatory employment issues involving age, race and gender. Thanks to these laws, I believe the US is closing the gender gap for same or similar jobs. The gap is still larger if wages are broken down simply by gender, in part for the reasons you mention.

Some feel the ERA amendment to our constitution is superflous and that all rights are already guaranteed on federal and state levels through other legislation and constitutional amendments. Obviously, discrimination exists in areas other than employment. I don't know enough about the ERA to comment about its possible impact.

Here is a link that might be useful: EEOC

Germaine Greer also has other interests: The Beautiful Boy

The total text of the Equal Rights Amendment

> Section 1. Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

>Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

>Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Re gender pay gap - its 80 cents to a dollar, still pretty significant difference for the same exact job and education. Also remember that many women are single moms, so those 20 extra cents would go a long way to help with their extra burdens.

Paula, l loved your comment; well put!

Thanks to bookmom and Cindy, it looks as though both our Govts have similar problems with offering a fair deal to all groups.

Joseph, I wasn't familiar with that particular book of GG's.
I could imagine Botticelli (perhaps a faun in La Primavera or a young St Sebastian without the arrows) reaching for his paint brushes.
I Googled for more info on the book and the one below seemed the most suitable for a 'family' site such as RP.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Beautiful Boy

One thing beyond the law is the so-called "glass ceiling." If a woman has the same position as her male peer, she can receive the same pay; but getting the top jobs is another matter. The saying is that a woman has to be twice as good to be equal. Things are gradually changing.

Book just out on this issue:
The Feminine Mistake setting out the danger of women leaving the workforce to raise their children, in that a large percentage of them will be widowed, divorced or left income-less when their husband loses a job-and, having left the workforce, their skills and contacts have deteriorated to the point where any job they can get will not provide an adequate salary.
Here's my side-beef....If a woman has been steadily working and building a career, she should have the choice to remain in said career after having children-however, the pay for childcare workers is so low that "who is raising my child" becomes a painful decision.

ccr, I so hear you. One of my teacher aids has a 2 year old who attends day care. The amount she spends for that care is about half of what she takes home a week. The women who work there barely are making minimum wage. Its so detrimental to working women and to the children. Finding decent care is so necessary for families who have to work, but its hard to find and very very expensive. Yet that expense doesn't always go to paying the best people for the job.

My biggest beef are the barbs that fly between women, the judgements they make against each other for the choices they make. The importance of equal rights is the opportunities available for women, in anything she chooses to do. For some women, staying at home with the kids is their lifes work, and blessings to them. For others, having a career is what keeps them going. Others try to balance however they can. But they are all making choices that are right for them at that time and place, and no one really has the right to judge (unless there is abuse or neglect going on)

Interesting to see many of you say women in your family 'worked all their lives' or similar.

When I was at home with my children it was one of my pet peeves that people would ask me 'do you work?' I was tempted on more than one occasion to say 'No, I sit at home on my a*se all day watching TV'.

What many women who worked in paid jobs gave no recognition to was that women like me worked in the school canteen, coached their children's sports teams, took their kids to excursions and sporting matches (I once suggested these parents should be asked to make a donation towards petrol costs and was howled down. Only once in ten years did a parent offer me any recompense and that was one of my friends), listened to their children's reading and helped the teachers in the classroom.

Admittedly my life was not as busy as it is now I am back in the paid workforce, but I was still working.

*steps carefully off soapbox*

This post is a bit off topic but still on the "feminism" idea.
All I can think of is reading a delightful book oh at least 20 yrs. back and thinking this woman was sure ahead of her time- a novel in letter form and at the time it made quite an impression on me-A Woman of Independent Means by Elizabeth Forsyth Hailey.

astro, thats exactly what I am talking about. No one should judge your choice, or make any assumptions about it. As for the comment about 'do you work?' I think (maybe) that its one of those general questions we all ask, without the implication that if you are at home you don't. If I have to ask it, I'll ask 'do you work outside of the home'. But I suspect people mean well (then again I don't hear it non stop.....) And Id suspect that many of those working moms were feeling guilty as hell that they weren't doing some of what you were able to do.

My mom was the only mom of my friends who worked outside of the home. At that time (mid 60s) it was seen as a stigma, and I hated that she did. Its funny - in a sad way- that the tables are turned. But either way, no one should be in a position to explain themselves. That isn't what feminism was about. It was about given all women opportunities that men had.

Kath - being asked "Do you work", I accept, is not great. But it's better than the comment once heard at a party; a woman turned to another one whom she'd not met before, introduced herself and asked "So what does your husband do?" Apparently the woman who was asked was so flabbergasted that she just stood there with her mouth open...like Snoopy, I imagine her "mind reeled with sarcastic replies".

Going out to work was, according to my mother, about the only thing that my father and she ever had a serious argument about. I gather the discussion went something like "I see Dolcis (a shoe shop in our town) are advertising for part-time staff. Now that the kids are a bit older, why don't I work in the afternoons? It'll give me an outside interest and bring in a little extra money." My father said "No wife of mine is ever going to work." To which my mother replied "Want to bet?"

No prizes for guessing who won. Good for her, and good for my father in accepting the decision with a good grace. She worked in the same shop for the next twenty-five years until she retired.

Kath, I could well join you on your soapbox, especially with the idea of 'stay-at-home-Mothers who do nothing all day, except paint their toe-nails, watch TV and gossip and maybe, in circles in which I don't move join the ladies who lunch.
On the other hand I was still in the Maternity Hosp. having just had our third child when the Sister (senior nurse) asked me when I planned to get back to work. As she well-knew that I had two children aged just under 4 and 2 plus a handicapped baby I thought that was rather rich. She was a kind-hearted soul so I think I replied that I felt my hands would be rather full for the next few years.
Going back to my own early childhood in the late 40's to 50's, I knew no other children at school who's mothers worked, and even by secondary school it was unusual. Like Martin's mother a few women started to get part-time jobs and even my own Mother 'did the books' and wrote letters for my fathers business, although I can't remember her being paid much!
On the "What does you husband do?" thing, it used to be so common that I hardly noticed it, but do remember a woman new to the area asking me that question. I told her he was a science teacher. "Oh, is he a Headmaster or something?" "No, just a bog-standard teacher." and that was the end of a beautiful friendship!
She was a woman who really painted her toe-nails every morning, for her husband's inspection (yes) and claimed she could never have more than two children because she owed it to her body to stay beautiful. I don't know if this is feminism gone mad . . .but I certainly remember thinking Judgemental/evil thoughts . . . and enjoyed all of them.

Vee, I can see it now. Husband comes home from work, wife stands to attention as he shouts,"Toenail inspection time!"

My mom worked all her life. She did take off for my middle sister, but told me she went crazy at home and that didn't last very long. More than anything I think it was a couple of the neighborhood women who were always dropping in to gossip (My mom so hates gossip that I have to get legitimate family news from other sources.) and disturbed her reading. LOL.

After decades in the work force I am now a lady who lunches, and quite frankly, I like it! First time I've ever been surrounded by women. I never knew what I was missing.

> I don't know if this is feminism gone mad

Veer, I am not talking about people who are just plain rude and clueless - I'd have judgemental thoughts as well. But here (maybe not there?) women get bombarded with conflicting messages about being stay at home moms or working moms or anything in between. Each group is meant to feel guilty and resentful, and such judgements do no one any good at all.

And after reading Vera (by Eliz Von Arnim), the idea of toenail inspection, while funny, would easily have fit into the husbands MO.

My maternal grandmother (b. 1905) worked all her life starting in her father's grocery as a girl. She said that she wasn't going to spend her life "pushing dirt from one place to another". I don't think she liked women very much because she used to call the other wives of the neighborhood the "cackle klatch".

Then again, the wife of an army friend told him from day one that she wasn't going to work outside the home and expected him to support her and any issue.

Carolyn, the Great Toenail Inspector is an interesting 'case'. A local boy (this being a down-market rural area of miners and farm labourers) he spent his early life in a draw to keep him from getting dirty.
Once he reached his teens he used to be seen carrying his Mother's shopping basket for her, always dressed in grey slacks and white shirt with a pastel sweater draped round his shoulders.
After an unlikely stint in the Merchant Navy he married the Toe-Nail Queen. Some years ago their two daughters, always dressed in pink and white, were playing with my grubby children when my brother turned up unannounced and Mrs T_N apologised for the appearance of her girls "They are just wearing their old gardening clothes while round here."
Ed, who has no interest in children, clothes etc said sotto voce "Yeah, their old Gucci gardening clothes."

None of this has anything to do with what I wanted to ask of people from the US, Aus, Canada etc Do you have endless articles and graphs in your newspapers about the amount of housework done by women v men?
We are often told that 'working women' ie outside the home, still do nearly all the jobs in the house and, although the men think they help they actually only do a small percentage of the work.

And what about voting?
After all the suffrage struggles that females went through to get the vote . . . here in the UK women were not fully franchised until, I think, 1928, I wonder HOW MANY actually cast their votes today.
I cannot find the information for the UK, although over-all 61% of people voted at our last General Election. Am I right in thinking it is somewhat less in the US?

Vee,

Re your question: I wanted to ask of people from the US, Aus, Canada etc Do you have endless articles and graphs in your newspapers about the amount of housework done by women v men? We are often told that 'working women' ie outside the home, still do nearly all the jobs in the house and, although the men think they help they actually only do a small percentage of the work.

****

I don't read newspapers anymore. I get all my news online now (some via online newspapers and some through other sources). I'm sure there are articles that address this in US news (you see them quite commonly in women's magazines) but I don't seek them out, and they usually don't catch my eye. I'm one of those that searches only for news I'm interested in reading and disregard everything else (which is probably why I miss a lot).

Re voting -- I provided the link to the US Census Bureau with the stats from the 2004 election, if that is helpful (actually, women voters increased).

Personally -- I'm a working mom but... I'm also the youngest of 5 kids. My mom stayed at home, and it was quite a job keeping up with the house and us kids. I can relate to both sides of that issue. I don't think feminism is bound to one side or the other, quite frankly. I work for an international firm that employs a lot of ambitious women in high profile roles, and it is usually a struggle for them to balance travel/work/family, and there are surprisingly a fair amount of stay at home (or work from home) Dads in these cases.

Here is a link that might be useful: US Census Bureau Voting & Reg Reports

Well, the GTI and the TNQ sound well matched. I trust their marriage was happy, but what ever happened to those little pink and white girls? My daughter, at four, in response to a smaller neighbor boy who was trying to catch a small frog that kept jumping away from him, said to him, "Here, Honey," and picked it up for him.

Interesting discussion! My mom worked once my youngest sister was in middle school (grade 7) and is now thoroughly enjoying her retirement. I worked full time until my DD came along, then ran my own business from home for 9 years, and am now a SAHM with the same job description Astrokath gave. I spend a lot of time in the school library and driving kids all over creation. Believe me, I am NOT sitting home painting my nails, LOL! I do worry about this gap on my resume, but right now I am where I'm needed most and I'm happy to be here.

Vee, I've seen loads of those graphs you mentioned, nearly all of them stating that women with full time jobs still do the majority of the housework / child-related work after they get home. I do think it's getting better, the men I know are far more involved with their kids and homes than the Dads I remember growing up.

On the topic of respecting women's choices, I saved this quote from (of all things) a knitting book. I thought it summed things up nicely.

"Why was (knitting) still so looked down on? It seemed to me that the main difference between knitting and, say, fishing or woodworking or basketball, was that knitting had traditionally been done by women. As far as I could tell, that was the only reason it had gotten such a bad rap. And thatÂs when it dawned on me: All those people who looked down on knitting  and housework, and housewives  were not being feminist at all. In fact, they were being anti-feminist, since they seemed to think that only those things that men did or had done were worthwhile. Sure, feminism had changed the world, and young girls all across the country had formed soccer leagues and were growing up to become doctors and astronauts and senators. But why werenÂt boys learning to knit and sew? Why couldnÂt we all  men and women alike  take the same kind of pride in the work our mothers had always done as we did in the work of our fathers?

-- Stitch Ân- B*tch by Debbie Stoller

sheri, amen to that! I need to copy it and send it to a few folk. It is so true, and its something most folk dont think of.

My husband is a teacher, one of the few males in his school. He doesn't get as much garbage as some do because he is in special ed, but he still gets an eyebrow raised or so when he tells people its what he always wanted to do. As if there is something wrong with being a caring and nurturing male. Same thing goes for male nurses - theres a real stigma that they didn't become doctors, and automatically assume they either weren't smart enough, or were gay, or both. Its ok for women to go into mens professions, but there is something suspect about a man who goes into a so called womens (that goes for house husbands. One of my students dad does that - his wife makes enough for him to do it, and he loves it. But I suspect most wouldn't.)

I have also seen the statistics that show women doing most of the chores, no matter whether she works or stays home. Its the rare man that takes his fair share of the load (I am blessed with having one of those rarities). But that just means that the feminist movement obviously still has work to do.

Our school district does require that all students take all the "life skill" classes-i.e. one cooking, one sewing, one basic construction, and Driver's Ed classroom, which includes basic car "change the tire and the oil" type of info. Unfortunately, money management is still an elective.

Georgia p, thanks for going to the trouble of finding the US voting reports. I had a look through them and selected a few States at random. I presume from reading this that when you register to vote at some point this information about gender/race etc has to be provided? I don't think these questions apply over here as far as voting goes, but our census forms are becoming more detailed, much to the distrust of many people.
You have to remember that we in the UK have NO ID cards and greatly value our freedom.
May I ask why there is so much emphasis on 'Latino' peoples?

Cindy, here in the UK teaching of younger children always seemed to be the preserve of females . . .think Miss Read. Then in 1960 equality of pay was introduced for both men and women teachers and the result was that many more men were made Heads of Junior/Senior schools; because women were no longer cheaper to employ.
Now fewer men are enter the teaching profession, except in the all-boy Public schools (ie private). By the time the DH took early retirement (or go mad) many women were returning to the classroom and just treating their salaries as 'pin-money'; paying for the holiday abroad, the cottage in France or their children's private school fees.
In schools where the children are 'disadvantaged' it is seen as a considerable problem that boys, often from fatherless families no longer have a male role model in the classroom.

Below is a passage I found written just before her death by the writer Betty MacDonald (I love her work). It was part of a series in The Ladies Home Journal and 'tongue in cheek' describes why she enjoys being a woman.

"There are so many reasons why I like being a woman I donÂt know where to begin," says BETTY MacDONALD, whose sense of humor brings as much cheer into her own life as it does into her stories. "Of course I could start with the right to vote, but the fact that this is not one of womanÂs exclusive franchises is pretty obvious if you have ever been around at election time and heard, ÂJim, honey, is it Acheson or Dulles we despise?Â

"No, IÂm thinking in terms of more truly womanly things. For instance, take MotherÂs Day when we had a roundup. Was I out in the cool green dawn saddling and currying horses; was I riding over these beautiful hills; was I leaning against the fence drinking Corral de Tierras, and exchanging anecdotes pointing up my bravery, skill with animals and general quick-wittedness? Of course not. I spent the day in that cozy old-fashioned little groove between stove, sink and kitchen table, with occasional sorties to the freezer and garbage cans. And where am I after a dinner party when the door has shut at two A.M. on the last guest? Do I yawn out of my clothes and fall wearily to bed? I should say not. I limp right out to the kitchen where mountains of dirty dishes, a bottle of soy sauce spilled inside the refrigerator, and wilted salad await me. I look forlornly around and then, almost overcome...

Vee, that's a terrific passage!

FWIW, the Equal Rights Amendment is getting a lot of discussion just now. Here is a piece over at The Volkh Conspiracy with lots of links. I think we have laws on the books that should cover this stuff, but enforcement lags, so perhaps it is needed.

Is that the Betty MacDonald of Mrs Piggle-Wiggle fame? If so, I've never read any of her grown-up work, but should based on that excerpt.

The Feminine Mistake was reviewed in the Sunday paper recently. Unfortunately, I am worried that its points are valid and I am an ostrich who is "fortunate" enough to stay at home, volunteering, taking care of home, hearth and issue, "working" at the local library a few hours a week for a pittance... you get the picture. My grandmother wanted nothing more than to see her grandaughters graduate from college and embark upon a career so we could avoid the life she had. Her husband died suddenly in middle age. The family wasn't much more than working poor to start, and my grandmother had never worked. In addition to grief, she had to learn to drive and work at low-paying jobs as she really had no job skills. I've been out of work force for twelve years and have no illusions that I could just restart my career and salary should I choose to do so.

Vee, South Australia was the second place in the world to give women the vote (NZ was the first, I think) so I guess that is a small victory. Voting is compulsory in Australia, so the percentage would be well into the 90s.

And yes, we do get those polls in the papers, although only a couple of times a year.

And, Chris, thank you for the Volkh link.

bookmom, it is indeed the same B MacDonald, about who there was much fuss at this site some years ago and landed us all in the sin-bin that was 'Disney'.
I have never read her children's books, I don't think they reached the UK, but have enjoyed her 'adult' books since I first came across one of hers in the 'Readers Digest' during a very wet summer holiday spent on the Shetland Islands!
To those RP'ers who remember the fuss with the people who started and ran a B MacD 'fan-club', I notice on google that there is now a site called The Friends of B MacD, who seem to be genuine and not trying to sell you anything and writing rude emails. That is where I found the above quote.

I have been unable to find anything about voting patterns in the UK (who votes for whom based on gender/race etc) so maybe these records are not available; not because they are secret but because this info is just not collectable.
Can anyone tell me what information has to be given when you register to vote in Australia, US, Canada please? Over here very little is asked for.

Vee-go directly to Amazon.uk and search for "Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle"-Mrs. PW will solve any childhood behavior problem for the befuddled parents.
They are dreadfully dated-no working mommies and the "problems" are minor-getting chores done, cleaning up rooms-just silly children's stories.

Vee, I'll second Cece - you should definitely read at least one Mrs. Piggle-Wiggle book. Just the names she gives her characters are a riot -- Pergola Wingsproggle springs to mind. And each story offers a fix for basic childhood problems and bear titles such as the "Slow-eater Tiny-bite-taker Cure" or the "Selfishness Cure".

They're also weirdly shocking to re-read today as they are completely un-politically correct and the children in them are very independent, have little or no adult supervision, and are allowed to hang out with a strange woman (the widow of a pirate no less) who lives in an upside down house with no questions asked.

I loved these books as a child, and my kids love them, too.

Aah, Lester the pig. "Magic" little black pills, smoke pouring out of tattlers' mouths, locks and labels for all one's belongings... I could use Mrs Piggle-Wiggle's cures at my house! Seriously, I loved these as a child and my children loved them too--first as read-alouds, and then to read on their own.

For voting registration, I could be wrong since I registered quite some time ago but I don't think much more information is required than name, address and, in Maryland anyway, party affiliation (in MD, you must be affiliated with a party, I think a party which has candidates in the primary, to vote in a primary.) At least, that is all my registration card has on it.

Re: voter registration, birthdate and driver's license or state ID number is also required; I think gender, too.

Vee - in Canada, all you need to supply is proof of age and residency. The voting age is 18 and there is a residency requirement. I registered as a voter eons ago and before every election some federal or provincial bureaucracy sends me an election card telling me where and when to vote.
Now there is a federal organization called Census Canada that comes calling every five years or so, asking more specific questions with the promise that all answers are confidential. Statistics. The general census questionaire that the vast majority gets is one per household and it asks the number of people living there, language spoken, and marital status. There is a very detailed version, which I fortunately have never received and that is much more inquisitive. Some people refuse to do it and are threatened with the federal dungeons...I don't know if they are ever prosecuted.

There is a silver lining to the detailed census. Someday in the future, when your great- great- great- grandchildren are seized with genealogy fever, they will be absolutely beside themselves with joy when they unearth your detailed census record. I was actually hoping to get one the last time around (these records are kept sealed in the US for 70 years, the 1930 census records only recently became available).

Proof of residency and age are all that's required to vote here, and you don't have to have a party affiliation. If you do register as an Independent, however, you cannot vote in the primaries.

I misworded my post--as in sheriz6's post, in MD you do not have to have a party affiliation but if you register as an indpendent, you cannot vote in a primary.

Janalyn as with you, in the UK we just have to fill in a voters registration form which now comes for the 'household' with our name and address already printed on it. We have to tick a box if we are over 60, this voting info is used for jury service. This happens every year. No-one official will EVER ask you what political party you support, and most people don't make a big point of talking about their views, although you do see posters for various parties in people's windows/gardens at election time.
We have an official census every 10 years, the next one will be in 2011. The questions seem to increase each time. And ours are only made available to the public after a hundred years.
Do you know I watched nearly all the West Wing and I still cannot understand your methods of voting!

Veer-any similarites between West Wing and reality are completely coincidental!
DS will turn 18 soon, and will register to vote-and, at the same time and with the same form, register for the "draft" just in case we ever have another draft. Not a happy thought. He is more focused on the fact that with a "senior" (over 18) driver's license, he does not have the 11 p.m.-5 a.m. curfew imposed by the state on "junior" licenses-mom's curfew still stands, though.
We did receive the "long" census form last time-it took about 20 minutes to fill out and wasn't that intrusive-nothing people don't give willingly to register on some websites with a darn sight less reason!

I was able to work out of the home after marriage (called "having a job") because my MIL had always worked in the business set up by my FIL. It seemed normal to my husband that I should continue with my job and the extra income was helpful to a young married couple. When I had children, I would do something from home, like making will appointments for a legal company or selling door-to-door. I used to tuck samples in my son's stroller!
When the two children started school and kindy, I worked for and eventually bought a local paper. After that was sold I went back to the library work for which I had trained after leaving school but only part-time as I also did work for a national newspaper. I can send myself to sleep counting all the various jobs I did over 50 years! Let alone community involvement! Now it's my turn to sit back but it's very boring at times and I miss the cameraderie and commitment. I have health problems or I would do some volunteer work but it is so good to be able to connect with all the RP posters. I really enjoy that.
Women fought for the right to be treated as equals and should be supportive of each others choices. Sadly that does not seem to have sunk in with some of them....

Don't you think some of the snipping comes from the fear of having "made the wrong choice" and knowing that the repurcussions, whether for good or bad, won't be obvious until much much later? Women agonize over whether they should stay home and nurture, or set a good role model by using their talents and skills-every few months another study comes out-"children who are in day care have more illnesses....children in day care are better socialized....children who have stay at home moms have less behavior problems by 5th grade... stay at home moms are more likely to make excuses for their children when the children get into trouble or have trouble at school."
All four of these pronouncements have been trumpeted in the media in the last year. They are all gross generalities that don't really reflect the true conclusions of the study-just some editor's catchy headline. But few people read the whole article, much less the study report. It's no wonder women are conflicted.

My two cents on the subject of working moms vs stay at home moms is that the media, once again, blows it far out of proportion to what really goes on. Anyone else agree? I've been a totally stay at home mom, one who goes out and does volunteering and now one who is working very part-time. I have not been a mom working full time at a career... but have friends and co-workers in all of these categories and would not dream of criticizing them for their choices nor have I ever felt particularly under the microscope by anyone except a few childless unmarried women much younger than myself. When I was working full time, I felt badly for the women in my office trying to juggle work, children, home and, far too often, an unhelpful spouse who in their tales sounded like some extra large child. My experience is that most women tend to support each other rather than align themselves in camps in spite of the headline du jour.

bookmom you are so right about the media reporting of so-called 'studies' on the affect on children of working-mothers; only eclipsed in the UK papers by 'don't eat this it will give you cancer' or 'eat lots of so-and-so it will prevent high blood pressure.'
The latest 'findings' purported to show that children left in 'care' would turn into little monsters once they were ready for school.
Over here the Govt. gives 'handouts' to poorer/disadvantaged Mothers (usually single) who want to put their kids into day-care so they can get back onto the work-ladder-tread-mill. And there are plenty of well-off couples who leave their babies from seven in the morning to well-after six at night in a 'day' nursery so they can earn enough money to pay for the two cars needed, one for Daddy to get to work and the other for Mummy to take the child to care and then pay the huge costs of the care itself. It seems a mad position to be in.
I don't know what the situation is the US and other countries, but I do wonder if here the so-called 'care' these children are given is of a high enough standard.
It is seen as a low-earning job, perhaps only slightly above working in a super-market, and although the carers/nursery nurses, have to have some very basic qualifications and have to be vetted to see they aren't paedophiles etc I would be concerned were I a young parent by the often large numbers of babies/toddlers that are being cared for and wondering if MY child was getting enough (if any) one-to-one attention.

It is a low paying job here as well. And while in most states there are very strict rules about who is hired, as well as safety regs specifying the number of children allowed per adult, there are usually not enough regulators checking up on them. The workers are expected to provide good care; and yet the people willing to work at the level of pay are often inexperienced or unqualified. It is a problem, esp as we are wanting to get kids ready to learn once they hit school. If both of our societies actually valued the work of teachers and day care, and paid them what they were worth, you'd see a big turn around. unfortunately you'd also see the day care centers fees out of the reach of most working mothers.

I brought this up to the top after listening to a radio programme about the US on-line organisation called Mom's Rising. This is a fast growing group concerned with the lack of maternity leave/benefits/women's rights which are taken for granted by us in Europe and many other countries in the 'under-developed' world but are not available to American women. Apparently the US is on a par with Swaziland, Togo and Papua-New Guinea when it comes to fair treatment for working mothers, mothers-to-be or mothers who want to return to the work place.

Cindy, I was visited recently by an old friend who has taught for the last twenty years plus in the 'reception' class of an Infant school ie. the youngest children who start full time at four years old.
She pointed out that these days all schools with pupils up the age of eleven (when they transfer to secondary school) have to offer/provide extra care either before or after school for any parent that requires it.
She said several of her four-year-olds arrive at school at 7.30 where they are given breakfast . . .cereal and toast . . . and work in school all day. At 3.30 'home time' these same kids plus some others have to wait to be picked up by a bus which takes them to another school which offers 'after school activities' and a snack until maybe 5.30 to 6 in the evening when they are finally taken home by parents or grandparents.
This is in a very rough and ready part of the county and makes me wonder at the life-styles of the more middle class parents who work even longer hours.
The friend said some of these 4 year olds are so tired they find it difficult to stay awake in class.

The link below lets you hear the programme or use it as a podcast . . . something I understand nothing about. ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Mom's Rising

Vee-before and after-school care is a huge issue here-and very expensive if you can find it. There are several "day-care center" buses which pick up students at my school and take them to join their younger siblings. We also have available at a cost before and after-school care at our school-they can have breakfast and an after school snack, and can play or do homework. But it is paid for by the parents. I know one mother who gave up working in despair, as her childcare costs for two children were equal to or above her salary-and add the cost of gas and a professional wardrobe and she was actually losing money by staying in her career. It is sad.

cece, and others, I hope this isn't getting too boring for you but I just read the article below in the Sunday Times written 'in honour' of US Mothers Day and felt the comparisons/contrasts between our countries might be interesting.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Mother of all Defeats

According to the 2007 Mothers Index from Save the Children Sweden is the world's best country for mothers. One reason is that we have 18 month's paid leave after childbirth with 2 months reserved for the father of the child. The cost is shared between employer and state. More than 75% of Swedish women are gainfully employed and all children are guaranteed a place in daycare, now called pre-school. These are either public or private but all personnel is professional and qualified nurses or teachers. Spanking or punishing children is unlawful for both parents and staff. A nurse was fired recently for shutting up a 4-year-old for 5 minutes in the "cushion room" of her workplace. The door had a window so she could watch him all the time but that made no difference.

My DIL is now in her 2nd year (of 3) at university, training to become a teacher qualified to teach from pre-schoolers up to 3rd graders. As both my son and my daughter-in-law are students their cost for daycare for their 2 children is not so high as for parents with incomes. They can manage on their student allowance and state loans, and university education is free for all.