I usually sow hardy perennial seeds outdoors. The ones that particularly dislike heat such as alpines and Meconopsis I sow in autumn. Also, any that have difficult dormancies such as some bulbs, trees, and shrubs get sown to overwinter outdoors. A cold frame is ideal for this, but you can just put pots and trays outside. Try to protect them from the worst rain and watch out for squirrels that love to dig in fresh soil in the autumn.

I sow most annuals indoors in spring. The more tender ones particularly simply won't do well outdoors in our climate. Any that germinate early enough to get a good start will be killed by a late frost, any that germinate late enough to survive won't reach a good garden size until August. Especially the tender perennials "annuals" like Impatiens and Begonia need to be started eary and with warmth. You can try hardy annuals outdoors, things like Cerinthe and Poppies, or just direct sow themn.

I don't give this any particular name or turn it into a cult, its simply sowing when the seed and seedlings get the conditions they need to grow.

I completly agree with you shrubs n bulbs, I sow lots of things in the late Autumn, and only this week have sown lots of bulb seed, although this has to be carefully done as some bulb seed is better sown fresh as it has a very limited viability.

I don't grow annuals but I can't really see the point of sowing these in winter as I would imagine they would sulk a bit from lack of light.

I also had a go at winter sowing last year, after reading about it on the Winter Sowing Forum, as I donÂt have a greenhouse. As mentioned, I think it works best with things that self-sow anyway and is not recommended for half-hardy or tender plants.

I just sowed in ordinary pots, vaguely following the American instructions  covering each with a plastic bag (with a slit for ventilation) and placed the pots against the south facing side of my house. I had success with sweet peas, aquilegia, foxgloves, campanula, rudbeckia, tiarella, geums, several hardy annuals. I also had quite a few complete failures. I particularly liked this method for sweet peas, as opposed to autumn or spring sowing. They seemed to grow into more sturdy plants and were into flower earlier than usual. Once seeds germinated, they seemed unaffected by any subsequent frosts (I was never quite sure when to take the plastic bags off though.)

I will certainly give it a go again after Christmas. As Garden Nerd mentioned, it takes some of the pressure off spring sowing and is quite exciting when something actually germinates while itÂs still winter.

This matches up with my experience, pjc04. When things fail, I'm never sure if it was something I'd done wrong, dodgy seed, rubbish compost, damping off, or a host of other things my seeds are up against.

Thanks s n b and DeeDs1 for the commonsense approach, things are indeed elevated to a cult-like, miracle-cure status over on the WS forum!

I am glad that somebody else thinks that they go a bit over the top on winter sowing. I don't think it always suits British conditions.
When i started growing perennnial from seed seriously I sowed some late in the year. Come December we had mild warm temperatures and the seeds germinated like it was spring. A few days later we had arctic like conditions that wiped out every germinated seedling.
Some things need to be sown by winter. For instance a lot of bulbs that originate from the Mediterranean need to be sown in the summer and they then germinate when temperatures drop and are relatively cool in our winter. In fact with some if the temperature rises too high then the seedling roots die off. Its also the best way to germinate Hellebores.However I suppose it is mid summer sowing rather than winter sowing.
Shrubs-n-Bulbs how are your Meconopsis doing? I have 4 pans of seedlings germinated and they are now in my greenhouse. If its frosty I throw some bubble wrap over and if its sunny I throw newspaper over. If its really frosty then they go into the garage. Hope it will be worth the effort.

Geoff, Meconopsis villosa are still small, pretty much just sitting it out during the recent cold weather, but all healthy enough. M. napaulensis are larger but I didn't get such good germination. They have been outdoors near the house and under the eaves so protected from a lot of the rain and also protected from some radiation cooling at night. The soil has been frozen solid on a few occasions but they don't seem to mind. Its been down to -5C in my back garden, but the seedlings probably only to about -2C or -3C.

So do they just have their seed leaves like mine? I think one year mine went dormant but I wonder whether they were more advanced. I thought I had lost them but they seemed to emerge from tiny little crowns in spring and really started to grow.

The M. villosa have one or two pairs of true leaves, very small of course. The M. napaulensis have two or three pairs. The first true leaves emerged very quickly following the seed leaves, which as you know doesn't always happen with Meconopsis! I put this down to sowing at the right time of year to catch a mild, wet, and humid late September until early November. I've noticed with other seedlings before that they really grow quickly in spurts when conditions are just right.

So what was your sowing date? I will have to check mine tomorrow but i suspect mine was later than yours.
I think Villosa are probably easier than the others. Probably why they have moved it out of the genus! Rule is that all true meconopsis have to be tempermental and likely to die when you least expect them to!

Hello Neighbors! Just thought I'd drop in since there seems to be some discussion going on; I didn't even realize there was a UK forum (course, I don't realize we have 90% of the forums we do until I have an 'issue' that I need to look up, and lo & behold, there's a forum for it!) Anyway, I was curious as to the zones over there, and realized that "Winter Sowing" as we discuss it over on the WS board may not even apply since your zones are quite warm. One could say I've been living in a closet my whole life, having not been outside New England other than in the summer, so I really have no clue what types of weather people get in their various 'winters' around the US and abroad. The thing that puzzles me most, is that I've heard that weather in England is much like weather in NEW England, but according to the map, it looks like it's more like Georgia and points south. How successful are your winter sowing efforts, and do you get snow over there? (I did put paragraphs in here, but looks like the system is making one big mess out of this post)

I had the same thing with losing paragraphs! The weather here is neither like New England, nor like Georgia. The closest equivalent in the US is Seattle, but we have cooler wetter summers and drier winters. Yes we have snow, usually several times each winter, but rare enough that it makes the news. Sowing perennials and hardy annuals outdoors in a cold frame is a long-standing practice. Winters are generally 40F-50F during the day and 30F-40F at night, but temperatures occasionally drop to around 20F (like tonight) and very rarely to near 10F. Frosts can occur into June, but rarely even in May in recent years. In much of Scotland and higher ground in England and Wales, frosts are possible on just about any night of the year, although very rare in the middle of summer. Geoff, I thought I'd answered this but I guess not. The sowing date was at the start of September, maybe even the last week of August. Seedlings are still doing fine outdoors but not growing much now.

Here is a link that might be useful: Britain braced for more snow.

Mm, the main reason I'm sceptical about winter-sowing here is that we get lots of frosts but little snow, and isn't snow required as a layer of insulation? Last night it went down to minus 7ish, but we've only had one night of snow so far. I'm still windowsill-sowing anyway. I'd rather have wussy leggy plants to look after than nothing at all. :)

This is my first year attempting to WS. I am optimistic. I'm thinking that in the 'snow zones' Winter Sowing just makes sense because of the weather conditions, and I see it as merely a protective way to play Mother Nature. Winter Sowing serves no other purpose than to ensure the success of more seeds because of the protection factor. My main goal is to fill my garden spaces as economically as possible. (Will work on the organizing part later). I plan on establishing a 'holding bin' for new selections which I'm not sure what to do with yet; that could turn out to be a wonderful garden area by itself!

I'm seeing a lot of double-speak, myths, and hobbits creeping in ... somebody must have been browsing over at the WS forum ;)

Garden_Nerd I tried to respond to your post but it seems that the UK GardenWeb will not hold my paragraph formatting, nor will it show my image links. I have responded to you on the Winter Sowing forum where you can read my answer properly and see the images. There is a link to the post at the bottom of this. Thank you and good luck with your winter sowing. Jackie

Here is a link that might be useful: My reasons for winter sowing

Did try to post a message about what's grown for me, but even though I tried HTML to get paragraphs, they didn't come out. I will not post garbled rubbish.

Uh, at the risk of being called a hobbit, can I respond to the snow issue? It is not necessary. I live in Oklahoma (considered part of the South) and I promise you we rarely have snow and I have been successfully winter sowing for at least four years. Lisa

Shrubs-n-Bulbs You sowed yours before mine. I will have to make a note to sow earlier next year. Mine are looking very delicate. They got frozen last night so have put them on the garage window sill. it went down to -8degrees C. last night. i know cause my Mum bought me one of those remote sensor thingies for Xmas. Beats jumpers or slippers. I can keep track of the temperature without leaving the house, all done by some sort of radio signal. I think those eagle owls that are breeding up in Yorkshire might get rid of the hobbits for you. Also I heard there was some sort of troll you could get on the Internet. That might work as well.

Yayyy, you got what I wanted for christmas! I have a stone-age max-min and it showed -8C out in the middle of the garden, but the seedlings are close to the house. The soil was solid but the seedlings are fine. I was always told not to feed the trolls. Maybe its OK to feed them hobbits?

IMHO we simply don't have a long enough winter for Winter Sowing to be all that successful, as others have said, it's more effective for us if we sow in Autumn. It's suits US climates much better. We're lucky enough in the UK to be able to sow throughout most of the year for perennial plants.

Please excuse my ignorance about UK winters. How long do you consider your winter? How cold does it get? We have a wide range of winter climates here. As I said, my winter rarely has snow and we have widely fluctuating temps. In the last two weeks we had a record (low) high and a record high...8 degrees F and 75 degrees F, respectively. I live in central Oklahoma and we are considered zone 7. Thanks to a drought and those latest temps, we have had huge brush fires here this week. I don't actually start WS my seeds until February since this December warm up is fairly common here. January and February are generally our coldest months. I can usually start planting seedlings in the garden in early March. Our last freeze date is considered April 15, I believe. An interested American, Lisa

Not a troll, but I read "The Hobbit" once...and my username is a reference to Queen Mary, so can I stay? ;) I'm sure once my "English Garden..." book arrives I'll have MANY questions and comments on how it's done in the UK and (other than the weather being so accommodating) how a Yank can achieve similar results. (First on the list: must Ziebrick the entire face of the house...)

I finally looked in on this thread...I think that if someone feels you need snow on the ground to WS, or freezing temps to WS, they do not know or understand how it works and adapts so easily for so many. And so--to eliminate any confusion--I'll paste in a link to make it easy for EVERYONE to be on an even footing when talking about what we do and how and why we Winter Sow. The link is to search results for "winter sow" on Google. You can with this list of links access the my site, the GW Forum and the FAQs, and anyone else's version posted across the internet. T

Here is a link that might be useful: Search Results ~ Winter Sow

Lisa The length and severity of winter can vary over the country and per year, some winters are harsh and others aren't. In my region we might have a few days of 25 to 20F on average somewhere in January, then again sometimes it doesn't drop much more than a couple of degrees below freezing and temperature fluctuations between night and day can be quite small here in this region it's about 6C difference at present. I'm supposed to be living in zone 9 although the UK generally ranges between zone 7-11. First and last frost dates are available but need to be taken as very general and having had to keep a diary to include weather conditions as a farm worker I've seen first frosts anywhere between mid September and mid December and last frosts anywhere between late February to mid June. We often have an autumnal nip and the weather warms up until about now. So I've been working outside in rolled up shirt sleeves in the last week of December or soaked to the skin while wearing a coat in August, this Island climate, as mild as it is can be unpredictable. We tend to have long autumns and springs with short winters and summers. No doubt someone else will tell you more about their winter experience in another region, these are purely my findings.

Thanks everyone for so many replies - shows that reports of the UK garden forum's death have been somewhat exaggerated! Welcome, also, to so many visitors from across the pond (BTW, what is "Ziebrick", please?) I thought the crucial thing about winter-sowing is the action of frost in breaking down the seed coat, so periodic low temperatures rather than snow are what is needed. The winter-sowing method advocates covering the seeds with a lid so they would have a little bit of protection anyway. I would have thought that the pattern of British winters where frosty periods alternate with mild spells would be ideal for breaking seed coats. I took up a tip from the WS forum and bought one of those see-through under-the-bed storage boxes. I use it upside-down, placing the seed pots on the lid and using the base as a cover. It seems to do the job. I went out on Dec 21st and sowed a whole bunch of assorted stuff that has been lying around in my seed boxes. One thing I've learnt is that they certainly don't do well if I leave them in the packet! Within days the gilia was up (a new annual to me, never tried it before) and the sweet peas also stirring - no surprise there. They are in a mainly frost-free greenhouse, though. Is this cheating? It is incredible how things are able to germinate at low temperatures, though the week before Christmas was reasonably mild. I'm interested to see how the seedlings cope now with a long, cold, dark January. It's all very well to germinate, but I hardly feel that conditions are right for growth. However, according to received WS wisdom, the seeds know best.

Freezing weather and/or snow are not necessary for successful winter sowing. I live just outside San Francisco, on the island of Alameda, where we have a period of frost on average once every 10 years. I've been successfully winter sowing for 5 years and am quite pleased with the results. In general, I start perennials that require stratification in January, followed by other perennials in February, and I finish up with tender/sub-tropicals and annuals in March.

The key feature of winter sowing is chilling, not necessarily freezing/thawing. While the freeze/thaw cycle will, indeed, help to overcome the mechanical dormancy provided by hard seedcoats, far more plants, especially woody temperate climate perennials have what is known as deep dormancy. Deep dormant seeds require a period of chilling, generally ranging from 1-3 months. This has been done in refrigerators for decades. The temperature requirement is seldom lower than 40F. Colder temperatures will still provide the required period of chilling, and even frozen seeds/media are using up that time. Later in winter, and in early spring, when the soil temperature and daylength required for germination is achieved, the deep dormancy has already been defeated. Why do it outside? Simple. I started over 3,000 cells of seeds last winter. My wife would have a fit if I tried to stuff these into her refrigerator!

Hmm I thought our winter finished on May 31st and started on June 1st.... The other day I noticed the temperature outside, using my super duper new thermoneter was 10 degrees. This was as warm as a few days when i was on holiday in the Scottish Borders... at the beginning of August. A few years ago when I was naive, and not yet old and bitter, I sowed some perennials in Autumn and then watched in exasperation when they popped out their little shoots in December and then they all died when the snow fell. I then realised that most did not need winter sowing and anyway in our climate you are quite likely to have a good collection of moss, bittercress and other assorted weeds on the seed pans by the time spring comes round. I now concentrate on autumn sowing for those things that actually germinate at lower temperatures - Hellebores, cyclamen... basically most bulbs. Some people think that Hellebores need frost to germinate but that isn't true. They simply germinate at about 40 degrees F.

Right, I'm going to start WSing tonight. Have too many seeds kicking around to not give it a try.. Will let you know if anything germinates/survives here in sunny Manchester. *crosses fingers*

Thank you very much for trying Winter Sowing fluffygrue. I wish you all the best of luck and more seedlings than you know what to do with.

Along those lines, an honest recommendation--we're all hot-up on WS because it really does work extremely well. If you have the opportunity to create some new beds before sprouting begins you'll be at an advantage.

Kindly,

Trudi

I have been reading the thread about winter sowing and wanted to know that if I only sowed the above two seeds just before Christmas (that's when I received them and was told to sew them fresh) will they germinate. I dutifully inspect them everyday but nothing yet. Should I myabe sew another lot? How long do they take to germinate.

What type of Meconopsis? Different specie in the saqme genus can behave quite differently.

I think there's still a lot of confusion here. British winter sowing is different from winter sowing in the US, mainly because our weather is different throughout the year. Because we write that we're in Zone 8 or Zone 9 (prompted by the GW form), people in America assume our growing conditions are the same as those in a similar Zone in the US. They're not. We only have warm winters because we're a small island, and there's a freak ocean current that brings warm tropical water round our coast. Otherwise, our winters would be much colder, because we're near the North Pole. Most of the US is near the equator.

Not only does this mean that without the warm ocean current we'd have much colder winters, it also means we have winds blowing from the frozen north, and our light levels are much lower than in the US.

GeoffHandley, you're exaggerating when you say our winters start on 1st June and go on to 31st May. Surely it's nearer to 1st October until 31st March (with the occasional snow in April, May or June)? With year-round rain and summer temperatures as high as 90 deg F, we're not much like a US Zone 8 or 9.

According to an article in the HPS Journal, Jelitto seeds have identified 20 different germination requirements, including oscillating temperatures, a period of cold, washing away germination inhibitors, dry storage etc. The main advantage of sowing seeds outside over the autumn and winter is that it maximises the chances of getting the conditions right for the maximum number of species.

fluffygrue, if you sow seeds of hardy plants outside, you can be pretty sure they will germinate. Eventually. I've been sowing seeds uncovered outside since October, and I've got seedlings of Asphodeline, Calochortus, Dracocephalum, Edraianthus, Epimedium, Linaria, Petrocoptis, and Roscoea.

I had the tiniest possible seedlings of Chiastophyllum oppositifolium just germinated before the snow, and they're still OK. Because our temperatures probably won't warm up until April or May, I don't expect them to grow much bigger for months.

A watched seed never germinates ;)

Me exaggerate.....Noooo. Did you really think I was serious?
What's snow? We haven't had any down here for yonks. Cheshire has had it, so has Telford in the South but not here.
Don't try winter sowing Morina. I did with some that had been collected in the wild. They germinated in the middle of winter and as the young seedlings are big and lush the hard frost that followed wiped them out.
Most seeds don't have complicated requirements and don't need a period of cold. Some do however and it may be more than an initial period of cold. Hellebores and cyclemen germinate better with an initial warm period, followed by cool conditions. There are some that need to go through the cycle of 70,40, 70. Some even need a couple of years to complete their cycle. I have found the books by Norman Deno to be invaluable on this topic.
Barnhaven primroses used to recommend a short cut for germinating Primula sieboldii. It involved watering the newly sown seed pans with warm water at a specific temp for about 3 days, after which it was normal temp, below 60....and it gave really good results.
Had a dig round through some files and found this from an old web page i constructed. Will have to resurrect them.
___________________________________________________________
I am indebted to Barnhaven Primroses for the following advice and indeed for providing the instructions that have made the germination of polyanthus and primroses so reliable for me. Some people recommend that P. sieboldii should be sown in the autumn and wintered outside so that they pass through a cold period and germination will take place in the spring. Personally I find this long-winded and I do find such seed pans prone to getting infested with weeds and moss.
The following is straightforward and shortens the germination period considerably. It also increases the germination rate.
> On the first day the seed must be watered with water at a temperature of l20 IF.
> On the second and third days they are to be watered with water at a temperature of 110 F.
> If any water is required after then cold water should be used.

It is very important that these temperatures are strictly adhered to.
________________________________________________________

Update on my WSing in the UK (Manchester)

Sowed around 5 pots at the start of Jan according to the instructions on the WS forum. We've had no snow. Looked today and eee, two lots have germinated - Convolvulus 'Blue Ensign' and a lottery mix from Chiltern Seeds.. Now just to see if they survive. :)

Melanie

I've had a number of things germinate - sweet peas, gilia, leptosiphon, delphiniums, lupins, Japanese greens, rocket, chives, onions etc, but they have just sat there for weeks. The delphiniums have exerted themselves to produce a tiny true leaf as well as the seed leaf but the rest still look as if they are struggling to get their heads out of the seed-case and above the soil. The gilias have got leggy and a few have damped-off (great phrase, sooo evocative). I'll prick a few out, using Trudi's hunk'o'seedlings method when March arrives, see if that wakes them up!

Lots more germination here, too. Nothing's died on me yet, which is good. I'm not too fussed that they're growing slowly, as it at least means I have more space on the kitchen windowsill..

What I thought was Convolvulus 'Blue Ensign' is in fact 'Blue Enchantment' and so much less hardy, but doesn't seem to have minded the frost. Bedding lavateras are doing fine too. As are penstemons.

Very very weird, but it seems to work.
Melanie

Oh, right. Might put a few lavateras in, then. Are penstemons easy from seed? I think my garden needs more penstemons, but they are easy from cuttings.

Geoffhandley, I somehow suspect I won't be attempting Barnhaven primroses! My primroses just seed around the place with gay abandon. These Barnhaven ones must be very high-bred aristocratic types?

I'd love to have some candelabra type primulas, but even when I've got them to germinate I've never grown them on to flower.

No idea about penstemons - it's my first time growing them from seed..! Seemed to come up easily enough. I think the next few days will be the test of them, as we've got frosts forecast tonight/tomorrow night, with snow inbetween..

*fingers crossed*
Melanie

Nerd...these links may be of use:

The Winter Sowing Forum Database. This is what plants have and have not worked, by zone:

This is the Excel Version.

This is the text version

You'll find that Penstemon has been successfully winter sown in our zones 3-8.

Cheers,
Donn

Thanks, Donn, I'll have to save that somewhere.

I have winter sowed in Canada and for the last 5 years in Scotland. My garden was PACKED with all sorts of trays - done with the slits on the bottom and top, tied down. There were all types of seeds started - st johns wort, annual flowers - columbine, calendula, impatiens, jacob's ladder, primroses, english daisies.Excellent for perennials - lupins, lavender, primroses, columbine, carnations, pinks. Just to name a few. I was just outside Edinburgh.
It is important to note what doesn't work in your area and what does.
North America has many different temperature zones and there are different types of successes and failures with various plants. It would be helpful if folk in the UK share their own successes/failures as well as indicating which area you are in. There are temperature/climate variances within the UK and it's islands to make a difference. Sea holly continued to pop it's head up into it's second winter from the outdoor WS tray I had. That's normal for that particular plant.
How are your seed trays doing now? What area are you in?
Let's share information.
Cheers,
Peggy

(sorry for the delayed response here!)
Zee-brick...back in the 70s there was a pile of infomercials on tv...it was a product that was some sort of brick-like thing...not more than 2" thick...you used it to reface your house. Looked like real bricks but was obviously just some sort of veneer that you just stuck on the side of the house.

My point was...isn't brick a popular house building medium in the UK?

And how did WSing work out for those that did it? I never got around to zee-bricking my house, but my English Cottage Garden book is pure eye-candy!

That reminds me, I suppose I should try W-sowing again, now that I'm just getting used to the idea of summer being really over!

Reviewing what worked I have to say that not much did, though my generally slovenly gardening practices might be to blame! I find that seeds often do poorly & unpredictably at any time of year, so W-sowing is not necessarily less successful than any other method.

Sweet peas - seedlings did well, drought on planting out mean they did badly in the end.

Gilia, - plants grew & flowered, despite being left in a tray for far too long. Try again with better care.

Leptosiphon, ditto

Delphiniums - these disappeared when planted out. Could have been drought or slugs! Something may reappear in spring.

Lupins, ditto

Japanese greens, these grew but weren't very nice. Tended to go to seed rapidly.

Rocket - disappeared. Why was I bothering sowing rocket at all? It just appears, doesn't it?

Chives, still in a pot somewhere, I think.

Onions - grew, but never plant-out-able.

My best seeds from last year were Francoa sonchifolia and Lychnis but they were not W-sown.

I must download the excellent link provided by Don and get to work.