And, Lux -- It IS difficult to photograph those purple shades. It was almost impossible in the day of film cameras, and it remains difficult in digital photography. Also, FRPP can (like 'Reine des Violettes') become quite shockingly pink, in hot weather. Many years ago, I got the dreaded "check mark" at an ARS rose show because my (really pretty gorgeous) bloom of 'Reine des Violettes' was -- poiple. Lovely washy shades of purple, just as described rhapsodically by Graham Stuart Thomas. The Rose Show Judge, who really didn't know Old Roses that well to begin with (tho he'd never admit it) lived in the San Fernando Valley. I live near the sea, where it is cool. He "knew" that RdV should be shocking pink -- not that silly purple! Jeri

FRPP struggles here, too. It grows more robustly and is not as chlorotic as Reine des Violettes, but it does get somewhat chlorotic here. I have an alkaline sandy clay soil and moderate marine influence. This rose does get some PM. It was a little milder this year, but it was still noticeable. I have not grown it long enough to know if that is normal variation due to the weather conditions or if FRPP does better as it matures. Without looking it up to be sure, I think mine is 3 years old. I agree that Old Town Novato is happier in my garden. If I were to choose between the two for a garden in my area, I would pick OTN. Rosefolly

I must admit- I came home with more than I had planned to..... But less than what I came with! I still have many hours of home-work looking up information and germination requirements... I thought I was doing well with the two portable file containers I bought to store seeds in this year- one for swapping and one for sowing- but It is a bit of a mess still- shuffeling through all the "d's" for the right digitalis or datura or what ever- and I keep seeing a picture from a post where the gardener had purchased one of those plastic roll-away multi drawer systems. A drawer for sowing, with homemade dividers, all alpha filed- the bit larger drawer for swapping- and the big bottom drawer for seed cleaning, packaging, labeling tools, bubble mailers, postage and germinating info....... All in a single unit that can be easily tucked away when not in use- and organized and tidy when in use! Oh to be so organized!! I swear- every time I pull out the seeds- it is like an explosion throughout the whole area and then some! I do wonder what others do with the seed storage/swapping systems...... I have found a good software sysem for computer filing for seeds and things garden related and what have you- It is called NoteBook from Circus Ponies- It does work well for me- and maybe you too! Julie

Well my goodness: I didn't know there were two 'Russelliana's. Looking at the photos on HMF I find myself wondering though whether they aren't confused in commerce, because the two varieties sure do look alike in many of their photos. I need to go and study the foliage on mine. I seem to be in the business, on this thread, of shooting down hypotheses. Here's another shot: the true Centifolias, all their various sports and forms, are prickly lanky plants and most definitely not thornless, as I know to my cost from working with them. By the way, in asking about the habit I had the parent plant in mind. I confess I haven't read this thread as carefully as I would need to to make thoroughly responsible contributions, but purplish old roses in my mental files fall into two main categories: the shrubs with some near or remote Gallica blood, generally shrubby; and the rambling purple Multifloras. In the first case smooth canes would lead me toward hybrid Gallicas and Hybrid Perpetuals, as others have suggested; the latter, well, I just said. I would read up on foliage. There may be any number of holes in this reasoning. P.S. I went to look at that purplish Centifolia through the link. I don't know it, and if it's a hybrid it could differ from the basic Centifolia style. I believe, though, that 'Pompon de Bourgogne' is a true Centifolia, that is, prickly.