Can't help you with who it is other than it is pretty. Wonder how it would compare to the photos of "Honeymoon Cottage"

Same here; I think it's gorgeous but have no idea what it is. Would really like to know, though.

The "Honeymoon Cottage" thread is what prompted me to finally post these photos to ask for some guidance.

An actual ID would be great, but I'm not expecting one. Opinions about what type or class of rose it might be would be welcome, though.

The rose is in bright shade or part sun, and faces some stiff competion from Japanese Honeysuckle, Virginia Creeper, blackberry brambles, pepper vine, etc., all around its pot, as well as many weeds in the pot that regrow immediately after my attempts to evict them.

The color in the photos is pretty close to what I saw, though possibly a tad pinker than the actual color, if I remember aright. The flower was on the small-to-medium side, but maybe would have been a bit larger in less challenging growing conditions?

Thanks for having a look,

Virginia

It actually reminds me of the 'Reine des Violettes' I got from Heirloom Roses, which doesn't match the rose by the same name from Vintage Gardens.

:-)

~Christopher

Hi Christopher-

Yes, I kept meaning to find my photos to compare to the impostor 'RdV' photos in that thread. In fact, that's what prompted me to find those pix.

I guess I need to track down that 'RdV' thread again now that I have these photos handy for a compare-and-contrast.

I don't suppose you ever looked at your pseudo-RdV's foliage to compare with that of 'Cardinal de Richelieu'?

Thanks,

Virginia

It's definitely not CdR. The "imposter" has elongated leaflets like yours, as well as red stipules (also like yours). How are the prickles? On my "imposter" they are short, like stouter versions of Gallica prickles.

:-)

~Christopher

No, it isn't 'CdR', but the leaves are somewhat similar... the way they unfurl new leaves and the way the mature leaves tuck under a bit at the edges. Not the same, but similar enough to make me wonder if my plant might also be a China Hybrid.

I just tracked down the RdV threads with impostor photos, and am not too sure that that's it, either. The Helle variant seems much pinker, and looks otherwise unfamiliar. I'd like to see better foliage photos of the Heirloom 'RdV'. My plants do have pink on the stipules, and I don't recall seeing any prickles, so will have to take a close look at my young-uns, and at the parent plant to see if there are any.

Virginia

Have you looked at "Old Homestead"?

:-)

~Christopher

Virginia, RdV has a very characteristic trait...the new growth tips, peduncles and sepals are highly scented with a peppery-sweet scent. You are aware of the conditions in your garden when flower scents are the greatest. Those are generally the optimum conditions for new growth scents, too. The fresher, more tender and "succulent" the new growth tips, the greater the scent should be. MANY OGRs and quite a few more modern ones have scented new growth tips. Scented flowering parts are far more common, but generally Old European Garden Rose growth parts tend to be more highly scented than those derived from Asian genes.

China roses often have a peppery scent to the same parts I described above. Mutabilis' primary scent is the peppery smell to those parts. Older European OGRs primarily possess the evergreen type scents to their growth parts. As more Chinas were blended into the type, the peppery type scents became more fully blended with them. RdV does a superb job of it. It has one of the strongest sweet-peppery growth scents of any European OGR I've encountered. Once you've smelled it, you can use it as help to identify the variety. Kim

Christopher, I hadn't considered '"OH", but reading the blurb for it from Vintage makes me wonder if I should even be thinking of Hybrid Chinas... to the best of my recollection, the flowers on this plant were not shaded with variable colors.

The quote that got my attention: "As with so many of the Hybrid Chinas, where the color spectrums of very different rose groups were blended, the colors of this rose are an event in time."

That seems fair enough, and decribes many of the HC's that I know of- even 'Frederic II' to some extent seems to be subtly shaded. Their description of "OH" isn't one I'd use to describe the rose I think I have, either...

"Large flounced blooms of claret-pink shaded maroon, painted with lilac on the backs and bases of the petals, the paler color blushing out over the whole with age."

But the leaves for "OH" do seem to have the right look.

I can say that I remember being disappointed that the photos were somewhat more pink/less purple than the roses themselves. I think the blooms I saw were fairly uniformly colored, not shaded, although I expect that the blooms would fade or darken with age. I just haven't seen enough of the blooms, and my plants are too busy sending out new canes and leafing out to be blooming anytime soon.

I did venture out into Mosquito Central (AKA our backyard) to check for prickles on my plants, and that's when I saw the new shoots. I didn't see any prickles even though one of the cuttings came from older (gray) wood. I'll need to check the mother plant for "best evidence" (yeah, I guess I've been watching too much 'Perry Mason').

I didn't have my camera with me to take leaf portraits, but I'll venture back out in a while when I'm ready to donate more blood to the mosquito cause...

Virginia

Christopher and Kim,

I did go out to 'fondle' some new growth, and there is definitely a spicy fragrance. I couldn't really distinguish between the scent of 'Cardinal de Richelieu' and my mystery plant, but probably they do smell different, and my nose isn't up to the task of distinguishing them.

Here are some foliage photos:

Do you see what I meant when I said the (more mature) leaves tend to tuck under a bit at the edges? I haven't noticed that 'rolling' with my other roses- except 'CdR', and with him it's not common.

Thanks,

Virginia

Rosa Russelliana?

Wow- 'Russelliana' is an ID I hadn't considered, but the flowers and buds do look quite similar to photos at HMF.

The leaves do look different to me, but I don't yet have enough hands-on experience with roses to have a feel for how much of a difference climate, plant maturity, etc. can make in color, shape and size of leaves

I will try to track down some more foliage photos for comparison, and even if I don't see any that remind me of my plant, I do plan to check the 'lineage' of 'Russelliana' to see if maybe I find a descendant that looks the part.

Thanks for the suggestion- I appreciate it,

Virginia

Could it be one of the purple roses by Rudolf Geschwind? I understand he sometimes used Rosa Segitera, the American prairie rose, which imparted great vigor. Helpmefind member "Jay-Jay", who uploaded several photos of the plant, describes Erinnerung an Brod as having fragrant foliage. (It is listed on Helpmefind as Souvenir de Brod.) http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.165478

I have 'Russelliana' and it doesn't look like this. Mine is in bloom now. It has violet-to-white shadings, quite a bicolor effect, and the blooms are cupped and packed full of petals, without the rolled edges to the petals that this variety shows. It can be trained as a climber or forms a big lax shrub. I haven't seen 'Erinnerung an Brod', but pictures suggest that it's darker and redder than this rose, with very double flat blooms. I don't know about the foliage, either. Is this a rambler type of rose or shrubby? habit is a clue.

P.S. 'Cardinal Richelieu' is considerably more purple in my garden than this rose: darker; plum color with an element of gray. I do have any number of purple-ish mystery roses, many of which I file in my Gallica/Hybrid Gallica mental folder. But I don't know about the foliage of this rose as shown in the photos and what its affinities are.

monarda, I'd be pretty happy to have just about any Geschwind rose, but I'm having trouble finding any with similar foliage. I am having fun looking through his roses at HMF, regardless.

I know that flowers and leaves can look different according to location and age of the plant; I'm not sure how much difference is too much...

Thanks for suggesting Geschwind... I may turn up a possibility along those lines.

Virginia

Melissa, I can't really speak to what the rose's habit would be if it weren't in a big pot getting crowded by nearby weeds, vine, 'Dorothy Perkins', etc. I don't think it wants to climb or ramble, but it may like to sucker.

There are a couple of purplish Centifolias that have small and fragrant double blooms; I don't think my rose is 'Centifolia à fleurs doubles violettes' or 'Pompon de Bourgogne', but I do see enough similarities that I want to research the class a bit more to see how likely a suspect it might be.

I don't think it's 'Cardinal de Richelieu' either... I have a plant of 'CdR' growing next to the plants I took as cuttings from the purple rose in question, and it's stems are already noticeably prickly, while the mystery roses are smooth so far.

I've been wanting to go visit the parent plant to see whether it's blooming, and whether it has prickles, but I've had some sort of off-and-on bug that's keeping me from heading out there... hopefully I'll get out there soon. Even if I miss the flowers, I can check for thorniness.

Oh, I meant to ask... do you have the hybrid multiflora 'Russelliana' or the hybrid sempervirens 'Russelliana'? I didn't realize there was more than one rose by that name until I looked it/them up at HMF after clarion2's suggestion. I assumed the multiflora version was meant, since it does look somewhat similar. The sempervirens version has a marked two-tone effect. (I think they're both beautiful.)

Thanks,

Virginia

I thought 'Russelliana' was much thornier.

Virginia, while the website is still (somewhat) available, try looking through Vintage Gardens' lists of Hybrid Chinas and Hybrid Perpetuals, and cross-reference anything that is a possible match on HelpMeFind.

:-)

~Christopher

Christopher, your psychic powers are strong now; maybe you should play the lotto soon... It's funny, but I have been bringing up the Vintage site from time to time to look through the HC's, Centifolias (and whatever else I'm thinking about). I haven't been looking at HP's much; do you think that's a good possibility?

Do you think either of the Centifolias mentioned above could be your pseudo 'Reine des Violettes'? The 'Cafdv' has been called 'false 'RdV' in Europe, so that factoid got my attention.

BTW, here's an ID update from a thread last year if you're interested...

Thanks,

Virginia

Haha! My initial impression was dead-on with that other mystery rose!

With this one, I was thinking today how the bloom reminded me a little of 'La Reine' -- not enough to be that rose, but perhaps something of that family. That's why I was thinking you should look through HPs. Many aren't reliably remontant without extra feeding and watering, so if you see a once-blooming foundling, it could just be that it isn't getting enough attention to rebloom.

:-)

~Christopher

Well my goodness: I didn't know there were two 'Russelliana's. Looking at the photos on HMF I find myself wondering though whether they aren't confused in commerce, because the two varieties sure do look alike in many of their photos. I need to go and study the foliage on mine.

I seem to be in the business, on this thread, of shooting down hypotheses. Here's another shot: the true Centifolias, all their various sports and forms, are prickly lanky plants and most definitely not thornless, as I know to my cost from working with them. By the way, in asking about the habit I had the parent plant in mind. I confess I haven't read this thread as carefully as I would need to to make thoroughly responsible contributions, but purplish old roses in my mental files fall into two main categories: the shrubs with some near or remote Gallica blood, generally shrubby; and the rambling purple Multifloras. In the first case smooth canes would lead me toward hybrid Gallicas and Hybrid Perpetuals, as others have suggested; the latter, well, I just said. I would read up on foliage. There may be any number of holes in this reasoning.

P.S. I went to look at that purplish Centifolia through the link. I don't know it, and if it's a hybrid it could differ from the basic Centifolia style. I believe, though, that 'Pompon de Bourgogne' is a true Centifolia, that is, prickly.

Christopher, do you agree that "Fewell's Noisette" is a likely ID for that other mystery rose?

As for HP's, that seems to be a better strategy than looking through all the purple Centifolias- if they are very prickly, I should already be seeing some signs of it in my plants.

When I first saw the rose, I immediately thought of another queenly HP: 'RdV', of course. It's the only old purple rose with small, fragrant flowers that I'd heard of as being 'at home' in the SE. But after I checked out your info on 'RdV' and her doppelgänger, I realized the leaves didn't look quite right for either of them. Square One again...

The correct name- as Jeri likes to remind us- isn't all that critical. But I'm trying to learn more about roses by growing roses, so if I can make guesses about class and ancestry, then find out why my guesses are wrong, I'll have learned something I probably wouldn't have otherwise...

Virginia

Melissa, I don't know if the roses are confused in commerce, or if HMF posters just didn't realize there were two 'Russelliana' roses, and didn't pay attention to where they posted their photos. Or maybe some combination of both...

Thanks for setting me straight on Centifolias being very prickly. I don't know any of those roses first-hand, so I didn't realize that was a good way to eliminate quite a few possible candidates. A little Centifolia ancestry maybe, but Centifolias themselves are probably not what I have. (The 'Centifolia à fleurs doubles violettes' seems to have a murky CV; she might also be a Hybrid China acc. to HMF.)

My 'Cardinal de Richelieu' ended up near the other plants quite by chance, but I was struck by how its habit was similar to my mystery purples. While 'CdR' is fairly prickly, the leaves are somewhat similar, and I have a suspicion that they'll all be suckering their way(s) into larger pots sooner rather than later. So in terms of your loose grouping of purples, I'm leaning towards some degree of Gallica ancestry.

I may never know what the variety is, but I do intend to try to find out... if only for the learning experience.

Thanks for shooting down my hypotheses- they needed it.

Virginia

In the FWIW category... I did visit the original rose photographed above earlier today, and saw no prickles. The bases of the canes were a bit inaccessible, so I took a photo of that area of the plant; old and new canes alike seem pretty darned smooth.

So not one of those prickly Centifolias...

Virginia

Virginia, I'm not good at identifying individual Noisettes, since I haven't seen any in-person. I just thought it might be a Noisette because of resemblance I saw with my 'R. moschata' and 'Reverend Seidel'.

:-)

~Christopher

I think I first thought my other rose might be a Noisette because of you, and because it looked pretty similar in various ways to 'Narrow Water' and Malcom Manner's 'Xochimilco' Noisette. When my 'Champney's Pink Cluster' had that same type of bud, that confirmed the suspicion.

I then looked at photos of R. moschata and again saw the same type of beautiful bud.

After I ruled out the different R. moschata types, I thought it was probably a Noisette that hadn't been bred far enough from R. moschata to have a different-looking bud.

I looked at R. dupontii for quite a while because of its stained pink petal edges, thinking it could have been a parent to "Fewell's Noisette", but I have no idea if it was even grown in the States in the 19th Century. Since I don't see any latent Gallica tendencies, I guess the pink-blushed petal edges probably had another source.

After many fumbling attempts at using HMF's advanced search function, there was "Fewell's Noisette", looking rather familiar. I should probably start a separate thread asking if anyone here at the forum grows "Fewell's Noisette".

Virginia

I'm wondering if I might have found an ID for this rose. If you're curious, have a look at the older references for 'Violette Jacques' or 'Violet sans Aiguillons' ('Thornless Violet'). Some of the newer references may be for a difference (Noisette) rose...?

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.33427.4&tab=1

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Virginia

At first, I thought it could be like "Forest Ranch Pom-Pom," but the foliage is different, and that rose has a paler reverse.

That's a lovely rose, Jeri; another one of your found beauties that you seem to have an endless supply of...

There is a resemblance, certainly, but one of the characteristics of 'my' rose that ruled out many ID's is how consistent the color is. "FRP-P", "Canary Island Rose", and quite a few others seemed like close matches, but surprisingly few candidates are both thornless and have a flower that's deeply and uniformly colored.

Hmmm... now I'm wondering how "FRP-P" and "Canary Island" compare...

Virginia