Hi Pos,

If the definition of a weed is 'any plant which thrives in a location where it isnt wanted', then I dont believe that the majority of Queenslanders see the Jacaranda as a weed. If the people of Grafton are prepared to celebrate their Jacarandas with a 2-week festival, then I'm guessing that there are many in NSW who also view the tree favourably.

I take your point that many trees which the 'average' person sees as fantastic have a negative side : nowhere is this more apparent than in Brisbane. If you get the opportunity to see Laurel Avenue in Chelmer, often voted Brisbane's 'Best Street', you'll see what I mean. Huge camphor laurels on either side of the street give it a large part of its appeal, despite the tree being seen as a pest in many other parts of Qld.

I admit that I planted my Jacaranda in blissful ignorance, but I still believe that it was a better choice than my other 'faves' at the time : Delonix Regia and Tipuana Tipu :)

Artie

A great post, as usual. Yes, you are a zealot, but so am I. It is very hard to see garden mags and nurseries (like those attached to hardware stores) selling nothing but exotics, with only a handful of natives.

I think that, from my dealings with friends and family who are not yet converted (note the use of "yet" - working hard at them), people are just not aware of the fabulous choice. There are many exotics which can be replaced with natives. There are many natives which look fantastic in a formal garden, cottage garden etc - but (1) they're are just not readily available for purchasing and (2) people still believe that natives don't need care and attention (I still suffer from this!).

Good on you for taking up the cause and writing to the editor - it's people like you who can help to make a change. Perhaps if all of us here contacted our magazine of choice/garden show then maybe there might be a change. Nothing motivates change than the thought that more people may buy/watch - which of course, means more money!

I have missed your posts, Artie.

Hope all is well in your fabulous garden.

Aggie

Hello Pos and Artie,

Firstly, Pos, Jacarandas are popular also in QLD, but in Brisbane and around Toowoomba, are definitely weeds too. I have a neighbour with a huge one, and I am also forever pulling up seedlings. The escarpment parks are seeing many escapes, so it really peeves me when people there are actually planting them.

Secondly, Artie,

"...nowhere is this more apparent than in Brisbane. If you get the opportunity to see Laurel Avenue in Chelmer, often voted Brisbane's 'Best Street'..."

Well, nowhere except Toowoomba, where they have avenues of these Camphor Laurel weeds all through town. They are worse than the Jacarandas. I have none in my immediate neighbourhood, but still have to pull up many seedlings every time shortly after it rains. And the Council is actually continuing to plant them "only to replace ones that have died in existing avenues of them" even though the State Government now has placed them on the environmental weed list.

And as you know, there are any number of native tree options to the camphor laurels, such as lilly pillies and other native rainforest plants, but trees as large as the camphor laurels are really unsuitable for street planting as long as the electricity authorities insist on using overhead power lines.

I cannot understand why people would not plant the Flame Tree (Brachychiton acerfolius) (+/-) which is spectacularly red in full flower; in my opinion more impressive than the Jacaranda; and a native. (When I told someone that it was a native recently, he said he thought it was an African plant - people still are ignorant of Australia's own floral heritage).

All the best,
Frank

If the editor of that mag saw a particular Banksia erricifolia here in Epping he would almost certainly change his tune. It has been constantly clipped to form a large dense ball with the flowers sticking up like candles out of the surface. It looks as good as any diasma clipped into a ball.

It is about showing a little humility before nature and fitting in with our niche on this planet rather than trying modify soils, modify climate, pretending that we are occupying some distant niche, e.g. England, planting anything from any where in the world with no regard for or even awareness of consequences and causing all sorts of disturbance and distruction in the process.

We Westerners are so divorced from nature that it is frightening. There is room for exotic plants in our gardens but not at the risk of unleashing weeds that will destroy our precious few remaining remnant habitats.

Hi Frank, Aggie and Greg

Wow - brickbats and bouquets, in rapid succession : I'mm beginning to empathise with my editor mate :)

Aggie - thanks for your kind words, but my garden is a long way from 'wonderful'. I would apply that adjective to a garden such as that depicted in sooze's photos of his rainforest garden in the gallery, and that style of garden is my eventual aim.

Frank, Greg and Pos - I wont defend my tree choice : I readily admit that I planted the Jacaranda in complete ignorance, but I'm loathe to remove it after 14 months in the ground. Its surrounded by natives - acmena, syzygium, melaleuca, stenocarpus, buckinghamia, banksia, callistemon - so it wont hurt to leave it in the ground for another 12 months and see how things go. If I could start all over again, I'd remove every piece of plant life on the block and do it 'properly', but thats not going to happen.

If I move houses, I'll definitely keep your suggestions in mind.

Artie

Don't get exotic tree planting guilt. Surely planting any tree, exotic or native, is better than planting none at all.

Aggie.

I see little difference in planting exotics and natives which are not locally indigenous. In fact I have a suspicion that mixing similar species of say grevilleas, banksias and hakeas from different parts of Australia leads to genetic curruption of the local species. It might be better environmentally to plant an non-weedy exotic so hybridisation is not possible.

Native gardens often look unnatural because 1. there are no locally indigenous plants 2. there is a lack of diversity and number and 3. the proportion of ground layer, shrub layer and tree layer is wrong. People always plant too many shrubs and neglect the ground layer.

I also worry that selectively using plants for showy flowers and year round colour whether they be native or exotic leads to an abundance of the large honey eater native birds such as noisy miners and wattle birds. These are beautiful birds but are territorial and drive out other species.

You have got to ask yourself why you are planting natives, is it to preserve the species? if so then you should only use locally indigenous species, is it to create habitat? if so then planting a mix of year round flowering natives from all over Australia is as bad as a garden full of exotics, again local natives are the go.

This seems incredibly obvious to me!

Formica,

I agree with you re the need for a dense understorey to provide a refuge for smaller birds, but I suspect that our morbid fear of snakes may have something to do with the absence of this storey in many gardens. As far as planting non-local plants, I'm guilty as charged, but surely that's contradictory to your point re a 'lack of diversity'. Given that CQ has several very different climates (drive from Mackay to Emerald then down to Gladstone on any given day, and you'll see what I mean), local provenance would restrict me to plants from the Rockhampton area. I doubt that I could find the range of natives that I have in my garden, either in terms of species or varieties of any given species.

I have the opposite problem, I get so carried away by the ground cover plants that my gardens tend to look more like bizare lawns... I like groundcovers because you can fit a lot more in per square metre :)

The reality is that our suburban landscapes are so far from the original bush in terms of climate, ecosystem and practicality that we may as well plant whatever we like (excluding species australian or otherwise that are weedy).

It's probably more valuable to grow trees for climate control, large bird habitat and insects; middle storey for smaller birds and insects; and ground cover for lizards and insects. To me a garden buzzing with life is always the better option. Now if only I could work out how to kill the blasted ants.

I spend my working hours out in 'the bush' and recognise that many of the plants that appeal to me out there are either very difficult or impossible to propagate even if I could replicate the growing conditions they would need to survive - things like Lepidosperma, Astroloma, Acrotriche, Elaeocarpus etc etc etc. Sadly, there is so much we don't know about our own natural heritage. I am also very sympathetic to the views expressed by Formica regarding our, often unforeseen, impact on the surrounding ecology. I worry about planting trees to attract birds - am I just luring them to places where they are vulnerable to predation by the neighbours marrauding cats? I am currently kind of disinterested in my garden - I started out planting local natives out of respect for our indigenous flora and now that interest has led me into spending most of my time out in the real bush, admiring and looking after the local natural ecosystems.

cheers and thanks for kickstarting such an interesting discussion, mudlark

Mudlark, if only I *could* walk 200M and be in a place like Kershaw Gardens or our Botanic Gardens, I suspect that I'd restrict myself to a few lillipillies and my ancient Mango tree ...

I shouldnt really be surprised by the passion that this thread has aroused, but I think it illustrates that very few of us are 'all or nothing' gardeners, and that those who are dont accept non-local plants of any origin. It gives me a sense of perspective when I find myself looking to criticise those who have an 'English Country Garden' : in its own way, my conglomeration of plants is every bit as foreign as their roses, camelias and flowering annuals. Its all artificial, from the instant we sink a fork into the soil : the best we can hope for is the back-handed compliment that Don Burke was reportedly stung by after years of establishing his garden : 'Geez, mate, you were lucky to get such a good patch of bush !'

just to add my little bit more there are jacarandas growing wild up in the bush so like a lot of other exotics they have the potential of weed status.

len

Apologies for dragging this out, Len, but can you tell me where you are located in Oz ? I havent seen Jacarandas in the wild in Qld, but then I dont get out of town as often as I should.

just north of gympie there are some specimens up in the hills off from the hiway.

len

What an interesting range of views.

I have found a perfect usage for Jacarandas :-)

We had a couple of Camphor Laurels and a Jacaranda mysteriously die in an area we look after near our house.We quickly realised that they make great climbing frames for various species of Wonga Wonga vines and the Black coral pea (Kennedia nigricans ÂBlack MistralÂ).

Plus, we had a common old Callistemon give up during last years dry times and it is now covered in a Wonga Wonga vine.
I cannot wait for the first flowering.

Out of interest, has anyone stopped to think about how these views apply to things other than native/exotic plants - eg animals? (dare I say it) people?

Does anyones indigenous prejudices towards plants translate to anti-globalism sentiments?

Aggie

You lot have got to to read the books of Tim Low. "The New Nature" is a great read and focuses on how some of our rarest plants and animals have survived in the most unlikely and contradictory of places. I strongly recommend it. You would all love it, no matter what side of the fence you sit on.

He also wrote "Feral Future : The Untold Story of AustraliaÂs Exotic Invaders" and "Bush Tucker".

For nothing you can do a Google on Tim Low and you will find out more about him.

Agnes, yes I work out in the bush trying to find ways to balance some often conflicting notions...... like should we remove this blackberry that provides refuge to native animals that now have to deal with introduced predators like foxes and feral cats, will the native plants that we are trying to facilitate the regeneration of be adequate protection against these new threats?? The natives animals are on the edge of extinction because of habitat fragmentation from rural and urban development and because they compete for food with the introduced rabbit, that also uses the weedy blackberry for refuge.....obviously we need to have a completely integrated approach to conservation on the broadest level, but if you are not careful, eventually all the facets of this issue will completely do your head in! Of course, you can't let it because we humans are the most powerful agents of change (for better or worse) and those of us who are already thinking about these issues are as scarce as hens teeth, so we need to keep at it and stay motivated and sane...if possible!!!

Robert, I've read all of the books you mention, Feral Future had the greatest impact on me. Any book by Mary White is recommended also. I also read a lot of books that discuss the colonial history of australia and that has been a real education, kinda helped me come to understand how we got to be where we are, and gain a better idea of how we might find our way towards something better. I have read books about the indigenous history of Australia as well, but prefer just to speak with Aboriginal friends because so much of what is written has certain biases or mis-representations that usually compromise the subject greatly.

cheers, mudlark

Agnes

I find the inference in your comment quite sinister and I am wondering if it says more about your predjudices than the views expressed in this forum.

Some people have looked beyond the notions that "any tree is a good tree" or "if it makes people happy then it can't be all that bad" view. There are some like Formica and Mudlark who see the detrimental effects on the bush of garden escapees, high nutrient loading, disease and pest introduction etc,etc much of it bought about by gardeners blissfully going about their affairs. I personally would be happy to embrace the introduction of any exotic plant or animal species or condone any garden practise if had no detrimental effect on the natural environment.

It is so sad that the majority are threatened by the too few people who genuinely want to protect the natural environment. Hats off to Formica and Mudlark and likeminded individuals.

By the way Agnes my son only likes red m&ms and won't eat carrots but that doesn't make him a rascist.

Treekanga

treekanga,

surely this wasn't really necessary.
bad day at the office???

relax buddy,

Jan

Treekanga, I read that to mean "Should we be having non-indigenous people in australia." Which presumably would mean I would have to leave/get sprayed/pulled up or mulched, and most likely Agnes too.

Seriously, the worst weed is humans. We should at least spend some time thinking about where our attitudes stem from, and whether we are really justified being snobby about which continent a plant comes from rather than on other grounds such as crop value?

I agree with Nathan re our species being the single most destructive, but I can see the merit in the POV being put forward by the 'hardliners'. Where I have problems with 'local provenenance' is this : exactly how many of the truly local species can I find at a nursery ?

Given that:

- a species which is indigenous to the Emerald region may not like Rocky's humidity, and vice-versa : 'local' means different things to different people
- species such as the Byfield fern arent available commercially, and are notoriously slow growers
- the majority of people in the nursery industry are more concerned with what *sells* than what 'suits' a given area
- breeders, similarly, wont spend the time grafting and cross-breeding plants to create something marketable unless they perceive a sufficiently large market for it.
- wandering off into the scrub collecting stock is a no-no (a reality that I completely support)

The obvious answer is that I should have the patience and determination to grow my natives from seed, and making the contacts needed to get access to that seed. Perhaps one day, when I have a greenhouse and more time, this might become a reality - for now, I'll stick with those plants that I can find in local nurseries.

Would some of you like to take a cold shower.
This is the Australian Native Plants Forum.
Let's try not to let our petty prejudices rear their ugly heads.
I tune in here to be informed and most of the time I achieve that.
This thread, unfortunately, detracts from the whole forum.

Cheers
Roy

I am with Roy. A good rational debate is healthy and informative but the race for the highest moral ground can get a bit tedious. It also turns contributors off.

I seems that we learn nothing from each other if the debate just becomes a point scoring battle.

I was also surprised by the amount of passion (vitriol ?) injected into a few of the posts within this thread, but I categorically deny Roy's assertion that 'this thread detracts from the whole forum'.

My initial point, somehow re-aligned during the course of the discussion, was that those of us who favour natives over exotic plants can seem strident and 'fanatical' when we attempt to sway those whose primary interest is in exotic plants. This seemed like a red flag to certain hardcore elements among the boards membership, but I believe that they made the same mistake that I make with smokers - I have all the facts on my side, but absolutely nothing in the way of tact or diplomacy.

Roy, I value your contribution to the board, but I feel that the majority of this thread was an asset to this forum : its no sin to be passionate about our native plants, even if we differ on exactly what we should be planting.

If I can be permitted two posts in a short period, I'd like to add that the majority of gardeners are a tolerant (if critical)lot - how many people with 'Meditteranean' gardens would post in the Tropical forum, berating those of us who dare to plant palms and ferns in an increasingly dry continent ?

Can I set myself up for berating too?
Australia has many native ferns and palms and some of us, living outside their native zone plant them anyway, for whatever reason.
We did so to create "tropical pockets" and given the humidity in our area they're doing well.
We have 7 Cyathea cooperi ferns, 21 Archontophoenix alexandrei/cunninghamiana, 2 Livistona australis and even a Licuala ramsayii.
But, we do have 2 water tanks with a total capacity of 7,900 litres, which is plenty to negate the need for using the domestic supply.
That's the key, installing water tanks in a rapidly drying continent.
Our main water supply dam is at 25% full and still hand hosing is allowed from the domestic supply, figure that.

Roy

That's great Roy - I accept your apology :)

Seriously, your palms and ferns sound absolutely sensational ! I have only a small number of the usual suspects - Cyathea Cooperii, Wodyetia Bifurcata, Hyophorbe verschaffeltii - as well as the mandatory old Alexanders at the front of the house, but my favourite is my Norfolk Island Tree Fern (Alsophila excelsa), which I am hoping I'll be able to move before it approaches its theoretical height of 10 metres ! Another palm I look forward to planting one day is your Queensland Fan Palm, Licuala ramsayii.

If you've seen any of the interviews with Dennis Hundscheidt, the owner of what *may* be the best tropical garden in Australia, you'll know that he maintains that the secret to waterwise tropicals is mulch, but there is no denying that they still need adequate water. I agree that we should all be installing tanks, and I cant understand why Rocky council doesnt offer rebates to ratepayers who elect to do so.

Cheers,

Artie

I also cant understand why the govt isnt doing something to encourage a system where every household has a water tank, the fact is they are too expensive for a lot of people to buy. I have a small/medium sized tank and would love to get a big one (I would make room somewhere!) but I just cant afford it, I had to buy a pump just to use the one we have. in the mean time we have a chronic water shortage over here, and while the pollies come up with expensive "water canals" and polution producing "desalination plants", not one of them has ever suggested putting tanks into backyards.

our own water authority website used to say water tanks wouldnt make much difference, it seems to have changed so that you can get a whopping $50 rebate on a tank 600 litres - 1,999 litres now (strangely, Ive never even heard of this- not that $50 would make any difference), all the while they are making record profits! there is something very wrong about the whole thing, and I suspect our water corp is quite happy with the way things are or they would do more. the only explanation I can come up with is that they cant make money from water in tanks, so theyre just not interested.
ok, time to get off my soapbox :)

Hello Trancegemini_WA

At least a few councils in SE Qld now provide rebates for larger rainwater tanks. For example, Toowoomba City provides $500 rebate for a 10 KL (10,000 L) tank. The 10KL size seems to be about the minimum that makes a useful difference to the demand for water. Those small under-eaves tanks and similar small tanks do nothing really, so if you are getting a discount, it's only a PR response to people saying they are being "water wise". Even 2,000 L is not very useful.

The most effective way for tanked rain water to be used is for the tanks to be plumbed into the house, so the water is used at least for toilet flushing. Then if it get used for garden watering, it's a bonus.

A workmate in the Toowoomba area on rural residential land (no reticulated water) has a couple of 20 KL tanks and finds that he never needs to import water. I am thinking of installing a 20KL tank if I can afford it.

Of course, if you want to get really technical, you need to work out the typical rainfall pattern in your area (or better yet, have continuous rainfall data over a number of years), the size of your roof, and the number of people in your household (and therefore usage). (Make sure your gutters and pipework can deliver it to the tank.)

Then you can work out the size of tank you need for the reliability you want. Unfortunately, at least as far as rainfall goes, nothing is 100% reliable. Life's like that.

Cheers,
Frank

Artie

Sincere apologies for sidetracking your post. It was not intended in any way to have any sinister tones to it at all. I simply wondered if people who are fanatical about local native plants (and I change from time to time as to the extent of fanatacism, but would include myself), are also motivited by similar anti-globalist sentiments to act locally - eg, local business, local produce ... local environment (obviously) - and do we stop and think about our impact on the world generally when we move about so much.

I appreciate everyone's comments in response - and most of all, thanks to Mudlark and Robert for their posts. NathanHurst - I would most definately be sprayed/pulled up ! ;)

I was not intending to initiate a contest for the moral highground - I just wanted to explore some of the relationships between gardening and other aspects of our lives. To most people, gardening is something you pay a bloke to do once a month for you, or you grudgingly go out and pull out weeds. I seriously obsess about it - and, in particular, Australian native plants.

I hope everyone accepts my apologies. Didn't mean to p*$$ anyone off.

Aggie

hi frank and thanks for your comments. the tank I have holds a few thousand litres and youre right its nowhere near big enough. we only get rain for about 4 or 5 months a year and its pretty dry the rest of the time, but it frustrates me that after about 5 years of water restrictions, and the dams still only being about 30-35 % full that our govt could be doing more and over a city area, I think it could make quite a difference to the dam levels and take some of the pressure off them if our water authority used their profits for something like this, and most backyards over here could fit a tank. I do feel better when I pump water out of the tank for the garden and of course its free :) but I can only collect the water over winter from one section of gutter to use over the summer months, and I feel like all the rest is just going to waste because I cant store it, which is hard to reconcile when you know that come summer that water would come in very handy.

If we had a tank in town (and having two large tanks on the acreage, we appreciate what volume you need to make a difference), we would only be able to collect from approx. 1/4 of the roof. However, I can and do divert the storm water from other gutters to soak in. There's enough water holding capacity in this soil to store the piddling amount we've had so far. I guess this wouldn't do you much good if you had sandy soil.

As for the topic, time's too short now. Sorry Artie!
Rose

Aggie and Rose,

Ladies, there is nothing to be 'sorry' about - you both clearly love gardening, but arent necessarily thrilled by some of the opinions expressed in the course of this thread - thats fine.

Overall, its probably the most confronting thread in an otherwise 'rosy' forum (apologies for that tragic pun), but it certainly wasnt intended to be. I will definitely keep some of these posts in mind before I start 'laying into' another hapless gardening editor who is simply trying to make a living on an increasingly crowded newsagent stand. 'More flies with honey than vinegar', or something along those lines :)

Cheers,

Artie

Frank: A small tank is quite effective for offseting total water usage, particularly in places like Melbourne or Perth with reliable water. I explain this on my rainwater tank howto. If demand is greater than supply for water, then a single storm sized tank is quite adequate. For people in cities this is true, as demand far exceeds supply.

trance: if everyone in Perth had a correctly installed tank of 2kL there probably wouldn't need to be water restrictions. The problem is that people with tanks are punished for other people's waste - by installing a tank you are offseting the demand, so you should be able to take some of the water you didn't use before water restrictions for your garden usage.

agnes: I think you are very much on the ball with your remark about native plant demographics - we are the people who think about the world rather than our backyard. We are probably all somewhat misguided in our attempts, but I get the feeling on this forum that people really do want to make a difference. We talk about reusing water, we talk about drought tolerance, we worry about synthetic fertlizer and the escape of weeds makes us all mad. I bet at least half the people here also seriously consider, or already have home grown crops. I shall leave on a positive note. The link is a picture of me standing next to our corn patch (at the end of my wife's blog entry).

Here is a link that might be useful: Giant corn (scroll to the bottom)

Nathan

It's people like you who make me come back to these sites!! Love your wife's blog entry.

Tried to email you but had problems ... Did you get to eat your corn??

Aggie

hi rose, you got in one, yep Im on sand alright and it doesnt hold water for very long at all

nathan, thanks for your comments, I was starting to think I was some crazy person and the only one who looked at it this way :), I think you nailed it when you said the demand in cities is greater than the supply (at least here and melbourne), I just hate to think things will get worse before our govts wake up and realise how important this is.

ps.thats some impressive corn!

I tried returning the email Agnes.

trance: I have decided to stop caring about the water situation. As long as I do my personal best I figure that the problem is self-correcting anyway (elasticity), and the people who set water prices (one of my friends studies this for yarra water) are well aware of the problems and solutions and will make very sensible decisions. Basically I have stopped worrying because I know the problem is being looked into some very clever and very ethical people, and they will do something appropriate (assuming the government doesn't come in with big boots on).

Incidently, when I said demand is greater than supply, I was refering to household demand being greater than available rainwater, not at the level of the city (that was designed to have supply greater than demand, although climate change may spoil that).

Anyway, don't go spending lots of money on water saving features that have uncertain payoff (such as a 100kL tank, in Melbourne the ideal size is somewhere around 4kL at the moment), you're better off installing greywater and watering your fruit trees directly with that (no pumps, no storage tanks, no ag-pipes etc - just run the greywater by gravity into a large pile of tip mulch making sure that the water is entirely covered and drains into the soil. I installed this system for $4 worth of pipe and $2 worth of tip mulch. That's the secret of our corn and bean patch: Shower power!

Hello NathanHurst,

I had a look at your rainwater tank "how to" web page. It's very interesting, and it's great to see someone committed enough to put in the effort.

I did think Melbourne's rainfall was less evenly distributed, since I had been told that it falls mainly in Winter. My mistake, sorry, blame it on parochialism. But I suppose you and I are coming from a different paradigm. A fellow called Coombes from the Sydney (or was it Newcastle?) region has some software he has developed based on his university research and the case study I saw for that area reflected the fact that the rain fell more in Winter and less in summer when it was needed more because of the heat, so that drove up the size of tank needed, and this led to 10 KL tanks being a favoured size.

I am in SE Qld and the rain falls unevenly, more during the summer months. (Its intensity is also a lot higher than rainfall down south.) I'm not sure about the statistics for dry days between rainfall, but I suspect that we have more extreme weather and it's likely to be higher on average than for Melbourne.

I was also coming from the point of view that ideally the rainwater tank would be providing the great bulk of the water supply to my household, i.e., it would be the primary source of water, and the town supply would supplement it occasionally, rather than it supplementing the town supply. Coombes is using a reasonably sophisticated probablistic model for rainfall and usage, and assuming fairly high reliabilities. I think we'd be talking about of the order of 60% to 80% reliabilities from memory. The judgement made by Toowoomba City Council seems to be that 5 KL tanks are OK (see the "useful" link below), although I suspect that this size was chosen not because it gives great reliabilities for this area, but is based more on a judgement of what people are prepared to pay for a rainwater tank.

The reason I want a 20 KL tank is that the Toowoomba City Council's dams (which also supply neighbouring shires) are only at 36% capacity and I'm sure that the restrictions are about to get worse very soon (probably bucket only for gardens). Where the population lives seems to wetter than the dam catchments, which are 30 minutes out of town by road to the north. So the tanks could make a real contribution.

Incidentally, be careful about that idea of balancing a pressure pump against the mains, that you mention on your "how to" web site. Before people proceed, they should ensure that the system proposed has their council's blessing. Councils might insist on their installing a "Reduced Pressure Zone" (RPZ) device, if they thought backflows were possible, for whatever reason. See the section "What is Backflow" at the following link:

http://www.toowoomba.qld.gov.au/media/publications/rainwater_tanks_sewater.pdf

Otherwise using the PRV is a good idea.

Cheers,
Frank

Here is a link that might be useful: Toowoomba's rebate for 5 KL tanks

Nathan

Your views are yours and I see where you're coming from, but there are plenty of others out there doing their bit for water conservation in their own way.
One piece of your last post says it all.
"I have decided to stop caring about the water situation. As long as I do my personal best.."
On the NSW Central Coast, the main catchment dam, Mangrove, is about to hit 22% of capacity, which will trigger Stage 3 water restrictions, very heavy restrictions indeed.
It means no hand held garden hosing.
If you have a garden requiring water and you make yourself completely self sufficient (in otherwords installing tanks of any size to meet your needs) then you are doing something.
If, on top of that, you are connecting those tanks to your toilet and laundry, you are doing more.
We are doing that as well as a bit more.
I wish the hell we could use the tanks for drinking water, but that is not permitted.
Not everyone can afford to install tanks but every little bit that people do is a help.
Good luck in your endeavours, and I'll wish myself luck in mine.

Roy

This is interesting. In our region, native plants and traditionally grown temperate European and Asiatic flora are both welcomed while anything that reminds of California or Australia is shunned by many (though not all). I still try to collect as many of these plants as possible! Mediterranean flora is a growing fad.... but most Southern Hemisphere stuff is still considered 'novelty' or just plain weird.

In spite of the native plant enthusiasm here there is much still to be learned - many of our native plants are from rainforests and do poorly in urban situations. Others (such as Arbutus, Ceanothus velutinus and Arctostaphylos) are seldom available because they are difficult to grow in pots. And many (Chrysolepis, Umbellularia, Paxistima) are completely overlooked for no reason that I can think of.

We do have a small but growing contingency of interest in Aussie and Southern Hemisphere plants.....which I encourage as much as possible!

Re Tanks
Surely the size of tank you need relates to a number of factore, one of which is your local rainfall pattern - my tank overflows regularly during wet periods, but still provides useful water during dry weather, as well as meeting my limited demands for extra water for the garden in the wet. I'm happy with my investment.
Tony

Ian_WA,

I *assume* that you live in California, but want to adopt Australian natives in much the same way that Australians plant things like (exotic) succulents in an attempt to create a waterwise garden. My understanding of the geography of California is that the state covers at least two very different climate zones, so I'll work on a further assumption - that you are from the dry SouthWest, and that our more drought-tolerant plants appeal more than our rainforest species. If that is the case, you might like to consider the poor reputation that trees such as Eucalypts have in many other parts of the world. Freed from the constraints of their native environment, some of our plants are decidedly weedy - ask someone from Florida what they think of Melaleucas, for example, and you may reconsider your choices.

I guess this is the message of the 'local provenance' stalwarts - use what was already growing in your own backyard before the dozers moved in, and you reduce the risk of being surrounded by plants that just dont 'fit'. Personally, I believe that you *can* mix-and-match, but it requires plenty of homework and a willingness to be brutal if your new pride-and-joy just doesnt fit your combination of soil, climate (and feng shui :-) )

Artie,
The initials WA and the address of Maitime would suggest Washington, north of California. Perhaps even somewhere around Seattle. Much much colder and wetter.

I don't think there's anything wrong with conservation.... growing native plants not only sustains them it gives a natural beauty to a place and they are often easy to grow.... While in New Jersey (east USA) there may be no shortage of rain there is in places like Arizona and California and there is an ongoing debate over water restrictions and people who water their lawns too much.... I can't imagine the amount of water it must take to grow "lawns" and other such water loving plants (certain flowers etc.) in a desert like enviroment.... it would be so much easier and more water effective to just plant plants native to the region. Especially since some of the basins that desert areas get their water from are beginning to get dried up.....

Robert, you're right. I live in the Seattle area - perhaps I should have said so. Here the temperature will drop to -6C in an average winter and -12C in a really cold one (this has not happened since 1990). This winter -4C was the worst we experienced.

In this region I doubt there is any ecological niche left for Australian plants that might be invasive. Most of our land is covered in thick forest or heavily farmed.... english ivy, scotch broom and himalayan blackberry have already invaded any vaccums there may have been. Cold hardy Eucalypts from montane SE Australia have been in the area for many years and, while the occasional seedling does come up, they have not shown invasive potential this far north.

The problem is everyone thinks it is wet here all the time and plants Asiatic and European things - when in fact our summers are very dry and we often have problems with water shortages (we certainly will this year). So we should be planting native plants (used appropriately.... as described in my last post) and we should especially be planting lots of drought tolerant Southwestern US natives and Aussie plants! And Mediterraneans.

Ian,

If you are looking for Australian Natives then anything that grows in the cooler areas of Tasmania would be fine.

One of which is Telopea truncata. Check out the post on this forum for this species. I would hope that some of our Tasmanian contributors will give you better advice.

Ian,

Apologies - I dont think in terms of US states when I see a set of initials, and I repeatedly forget that this board is based in the US !

If Tasmania is roughly analagous to Seattle, then perhaps NZ natives would be a better bet than the majority of our plants. Their temperate rainforests are incredibly beautiful, although it would seem that you may not get their abundant rainfall from your comments re dry summers.

One of my favourite plants, the humble tree fern, is a feature of rainforests on both sides of the Tasman - hard to go past as a feature plant under a canopy.

Roy, I've read and reread your post and I am at a total loss to work out what you are telling me?

When I said "Stopped caring", I was refering to getting up tight and militant about the issue. I've given what I hope is a logical and reasoned approach to sizing water tanks, with my justification. Practical experience suggests that the long term averages are too high for tank sizing at the moment, but I still hold that if each household installed the tank size I suggest then we wouldn't be in the pickle we are in. As a result I feel that if I have done that much, then I should not feel guilty using water the way I do.

I do not believe that having each house fully self-sufficient for water is economical or desirable from an environmental perspective, as significant resources are used to make the tanks, to make the pipes and plumb everything in. There is always a diminising return on effort expended so you should think carefully about exactly what your goal is, and optimise for that.

In my case I felt that we should be looking at the cost per L of water available each year. When I wrote that page it seemed reasonable to assume that there would be enough water in storage to tide over drought periods. Of course, as I was the only (near enough) person to think this way, our water supply has dwindled to the point where that assumption is no longer true. As a result, I am punished (reduce opportunity) for my efforts at water conservation; hence my disinterest in further efforts.

Frank, regarding towns having higher rainfalls than the catchments; I think you are probably right. There is strong evidence that cities strongly affect local climate to the extent that standard weather models have to take them into account. If you can reasonably quickly fill that tank, and you have room, then go for it!

Regarding PRV idea, it was suggested in ReNew a while back and had the blessing of at least one council in Brisbane, so there is precedent.

I do collect all the water I can, despite living in a rental proprety.