But it's not a climber is it. Just a giant shrub. Treat it as such.

Put your Glasses on Laurie........

MM,
that looks impressively beautiful. What do you do next, you ask?
Put one, no .. two, three, four ... or more arcs and spread your climber. Plant some more climbers there and make your entrance gateway to heaven.
- Tom

Thanks Tom, I wish I could not got the $$$ or the room I have a grevillea pteridiifolia at the back of it which will grow to 4mts wide and 5 high and two Frangipani behind them also training a standard bougainvillea to sit on that bicycle wheel it has taken me 13mts to get it to that size and it was there first.

But I do have another arch down the end of that garden bed past the Frangipani it has a Crepscule on each side and is doing very well planted in the shade of those huge Gum trees its in flower at present maybe I should have planted another noisette on this arch too. Also have a double delight climber on the "Chooky Heaven" fence.

Lozza said to treat it like a shrub only trouble is if I pruned it like I did my shrubs there would not be much left , being warmer here things grow too fast at times, so I have decide to just leave it and if it starts to head to close to the house then I will prune it a bit. Thanks again.....Cheers..MM.

Sounds like both of you need some coaching in pruning. Misty, I'm not going to argue with you. It' a large shrub! Maybe it can be trained as a climber. This year's Australian Rose Annual will contain an article about climbers. Might pay to get a copy and look it up.
Tom, this is Oz, I heard you tell everyone. Everything is different here (?). I'll let you in on a secret. Pruning here is very different (if you want your roses to be most productive) to the methods practised in places where 2 flushes of bloom are the norm.

And I am not arguing with you either Laurie, I asked for help as I have never grown a climbing rose before but did I get it .... NO.... . And yes it is coaching in pruning a climber I am after..You say treat it as a shrub which shrub, there are shrubs and there are shrubs, now if you wanted to prune something tropical I would ask which one as shrubs get pruned different here eg. Plumbago gets cut right down with hedge shears, but I would never prune my frangipani azalea or camelia except to tidy them up, most of my shrubs gets pruned after flowering like 90% of the worlds.

When I get into climbers well that's a different story I have 23 Bougainvillea and they are magnificent, there are ones in pots and bushes a few growing up trees never will I let them get higher than 180cms then there are all the weeping standards that I grow. No I prune them like climbers and cut off about 1/2 of its new growth when it gets to 30cms and when more canes grow I cut off 1/2 of them again and stop in the late summer thats gives them enough time to produce flowering canes, so instead of having a very tall skinny vine strangling a tree I am rewarded with this thick bushy shrub which in in fact a climber and flowers for months on end.

So all I was asking in plain everyday English is how much do I take off, your answer was NO help at all. But not to worry there are plenty of members out there and maybe one will give me the right answer. I will also try my local library tomorrow I am sure I will find a book there that will help me. Have a wonderful day now. Cheers..MM.

Hi MM

I had to have a chuckle when I read the canes were heading over to the deck---they may take over the house!!lol
I really mean its great that its growing so well--too well you may say!!!
I have no experience with climbers AT ALL so-from an amateurs view I would fold in the canes you want to go over the arch and remove the wayward canes if you cant bend them in.
I am no expert but I am growing Pierre de Ronsard which is shooting canes upwards and I will be able to espalier (sp?) them however ,there are canes growing forward away from the wall.I havnt read any books yet but I think I will trim the ones growing in the wrong direction.
Hopefully that will encourage the growth to go upwards---who knows? That's what I am going to do.
I had a Peace shrub rose that has been great for 3 years go to the dogs this year with BS/PM, so in desperation ,I cut it back like you would a winter prune and now it is fine.Very healthy and growing like mad.
I was nervous to do this but it was worth it and I will do it again if required on any of my roses.
I think sometimes you just have to have a go and not be too worried about it.
Roses will always come back-eventually.
I pruned a rose with no idea of what I was doing a number of years ago and it came back really strong about 2 years later!!!!I thought I had killed it, but no ,just pruned really badly before I was taught how to do it.Now its fine -blooming its head off.
Sorry for the long post..hope it will help
cheers
Michelle

And THANK YOU MICHELLE for your Help, thats Great I was a bit tempted to treat it like one of my bougainvillea, but just didn't know what to do. As you say roses are very forgiven I am certainly going to cut those ones off that are heading for the decking got to worry about the termites using them as laddders, these plants had so many grafts on them to generous for climbers.

I will have to get hubby up the ladder to tie them, as that torn rotator cuff I have is stopping me from lifting my right arm very high, though I do manage to do things at just above waist height I am so glad most of my roses are Standards so a good working height. Hubby is all thumbs and like a bull at a gate, breaks everything but maybe those breaks with turn in more shoots who knows.. Your long post was very Helpful Thanks again Michelle.

And may your roses bloom forever...Cheers..MM.

I've got a couple of climbers MM and I really don't know what I'm doing, but I just cut off the bits that I think don't look right or are heading in the wrong direction. They always do just fine.

I'm sure if the 'experts' looked at them, they would say I'm doing it all wrong, but I don't care....it works for me. Basically I'm learning as I go (and learning from my mistakes) and I think that's the best way because you never forget.

Good luck.
Cheers,
Dee.

**
Tom, this is Oz, I heard you tell everyone. Everything is different here (?). I'll let you in on a secret. Pruning here is very different (if you want your roses to be most productive) to the methods practised in places where 2 flushes of bloom are the norm.
**
What's written about roses in northern hemisphere doesn't (always) work here. And most people believe everything they read in the books.
And also, who cares about pruning? :-) I was encouraging MM to plant more roses to have something like this. Yeah! Go MM, go!

{{gwi:2112151}}

Thanks Dee. Yes I am like you so I will have a go, after all if its wrong it will grow again.
Dont know if it will grow back right though, but who cares.

Tom that is so beautiful "I Wish " now if I was 40 years younger I would do it no problem.
Here I cant quite see it weaving through my Natives and Tropicals but a wonderful idea all the same.
Cheers....MM.

BTW MM
I meant to add that your house is looking really nice.
The different sides I can see thru the garden makes me think it would be very comfortable.

deejaus
I couldnt agree more...sometimes you learn best by making mistakes.My view is usually everything will grow back given enough time.
If it works for you keep it up !

Tom the arches are divine.
Cheers
Michelle

Hi MM,
That looks a very prolific rose you've've got there!

To encourage flowers along the length of the cane, you need to bend them towards the horizontal, so tie up the canes you want to retain over your arch. Any you dont't want or those which are growing in the wrong spot, cut off from the base and train any new ones which shoot up straight away. Any errant growth you don't want on the canes you want to keep, cut the growth back to about two or three nodes from the main shoot. The flowers will come from there, particularly if it's bent over.
I think that you can be brave with this rose, it looks as if it's a doer!

I think roses are very forgiving, so do what you think will suit the rose and don't get anxious, but keep the upper hand:) This looks most terrific!
Mary

Hiya MM,
Lozza really is a lovely person but what can I tell ya?-his favourite tv show is "Grumpy old Men". *grin*
What Lozza means is that Westerland is one of those in between roses like Sparrieshoop and Altissimo-often marketed as 'climbers' when in reality they are large loose caned shrubs that can be amenable to training over an arch or trellis etc.
The correct term for these is 'Shrub Climbers'-how's that for ambiguity?
I grow 2 Hybrid Musks as climbers on an arch-Buff Beauty and Cornelia-BOTH are classified as shrubs but they do the arch thing well.
As for pruning-just remove anything going in the wrong direction or cut to the first bud that is facing the way you want that shoot to grow.
You are going to have a wonderful display I can see.
We will need to see pics when it is in full flush.:)
regards
sandie

Hi Michelle I like our house too, it was very hard work building it as we were both too old, no nail guns used only hammers hense the worn out bodies. Its all finished now but not the garden, that goes on and on.

And Thank you too Mary and Sandie I understood that really well and I copy and pasted both your replys and printed them up for my Roses Folder (Paper One) and we shall work on it tomorrow bodies permitting.

Mary if my Crepscules on the Front Arch looks half as good as your plants I will be happy, my two are coming along fine but only about 4ft tall, I have since found out they are slow starters and after that rain they too are flying away with so many clusters of flowers it so wonderful.

Sandie I did understand what L meant about it being a shrub climber, I just did not know which shrub to prune it like, I could have cut it right down with the shears like I do my Poinsettia's and Plumbago, or was I supposed to cut 1/3 off after flowering like most shrubs, then there is the way to do Hibiscus different again so understand my hesitation to starting this as I did not want to do it wrong. Thank you for letting me know your Buff Beauty grows well over a Arch I may try that one next time as your photo's inspired me to grow it. Thanks again everyone. Cheers..MM.

Okay everyone. Now I am a bit confused because I read somewhere that you get your climbers flowering they needed to be tied horizontally. I have tried this but being a bit of a shorty how am I ever going to manage them when they go skywards? Incidentally I love the photos of the roses goin over the arches. jan

Lozza,
When you say it is a bush, does this mean that it will keep throwing out large heavy canes and generally be too aggressive to shape and control over an arch?
Perhaps better for growing over a roof or spread out over a wall where it could take up a fair amount of room in all directions?
Thanks Deb

Hello Deb. The names bush or shrub relates to the way a rose develops during a growing season. They are usually pruned in the coldest time of the year by removing old and unproductive wood. The plant responds by regenerating itself the next growing season, including the production of 4 flushes of bloom, rarely but sometimes less, AND they can beccome huge plants. Genuine species roses that are shrubs, produce single blooms, and are once-flowering only. Old European shrub roses from depths of time also will bloom only once. In the Australian climate, there can be seen a "repeat" bloom on many so-called once-bloomers.

All genuine climbers are once-flowering only. And this includes the group known as ramblers. These are the true climbers. Most of the others are sports of Moderns that have mutated to a climbing FORM, i.e. they behave as a rambler. One confusing group refuses to behave according to either of these two growth habits. They are the Noisettes, a diverse group of roses from various origins.

The growth habits of climbers/ramblers is fundamentally the production of new canes AFTER flowering (early December here). These canes do not have blooming parts to the ends of the canes, but just grow and grow. This factor is the fundamental departure point for shrubs and climbers. Typically these canes are best constrained from blowing wildly about while they grow, are then pulled down from April on and positioned horizontally on a fence-like support to encourage production of flowering laterals the following Spring. There may be some residual blooming in Autumn. These plants are the typical climbing sports, and names are usually prefixed "Climbing" or Cl.", e.g. 'Cl.Papa Meilland'. The lax-limbed ramblers behave exactly the same way, blooming in Spring-early Summer, and then going into a frenzy of regeneration for example, (various hybrids of Banksias, Multifloras, Moschatas, Wichurianas, and Filipes). These are the plants we ought prune after blooming, if we can get close enough(!), to provide space for regrowth. Left to themselves, the plants will coppice, growing up and over themselves each season. These ramblers are not the plants to put on a fence, arch or pole, but better planted in the open to fend for themselves. The Spring display of course is stunnibg, but it is important to consider the foliage, to maintain beauty thereafter.

If you want to use the small arches commonly available from the chains, you really ought consider the appropriateness of the roses you intend to grow there. Some of the Hybrid Musks that throw 6' to 8' canes can be considered, but these become heavy unless cleaned out regularly, else as I have described elsewhere, the rose will be wearing the arch for adornment. There is one rose undeniably suited for these smaller arches, and that is 'Renae'. Pliant, repeat flowering, and fragrant, but still must be cleaned out of old wood. Any repeat flowering rose ought be pruned in Winter, otherwise, after blooming...

Great information Lozza, really very helpful, thank you!
I have 3 Renea, planted on a wire fence next to a dog swimming pool. They were recommend for all the reason you have stated, will not over power the situation, easy to handle and repeated blooms. They are also thornless due to their closeness to the traffic around the pool and no hint of black spot or mildew. They have been in the ground about 9 months and are just a perfect delight.

You say on the Climbers to stabilize the new years canes as they grow and then later pull them down to a horizontal position. Does it matter if you train them horizontal from the beginning of their growth each year?

A question about the HT sport climbers. I find them a little difficult at times to understand. I once had a Cl Peace, spread along a rail fence, the effect was not what I had wanted. I trained the initial canes along the rails of the fence. It produced lots of new large canes from the horizontal canes each year, but I found they grew straight up for 4-6 feet before flowering. So all the flowers were high up and not even near the fence.

Is this the growth habit of Hybrid tea Cl spot such as Peace and I had the wrong rose for training along a rail fence? I am thinking so from the information you have just given. I ask because I now have CL Peter Frankenfeld in the same situation and now wondering if have chosen the wrong type of rose. If so I would like to take it out and replace it this winter and not waist time on it. Deb

I'm a little bit puzzled that no one has mentioned that there is both a shrub and climbing version of Westerland. The climber is quite vigorous to 3 metres or more in hotter climates. Some describe it as being quite thorny and caney but that it is nonetheless beautiful. Also that it needs fertile soil to put on a better show.

The shrub is classed as a floribunda I believe but can grow taller than average in the hotter climates. I have never grown it or seen it grown - this is just researched info.

Love to see yours in full bloom MM - please post a photo when it is.

There is only one 'Westerland' so I am wondering what reference says there are two? Also, 'Westerland' is a shrub and so classified, not a climber. Refer my comments above regarding the difference. (It is interesting to mote that the ARS now does not recognise Ramblers as a group, but links them to Large-Flowered Climbers, a true misnomer. Perhaps the Americans are settling for the prefix "Hybrid" before the species, as in 'Hybrid Wichurianas', Hybrid Multifloras. It's a real can of worms the way it's going. I will question this decision with them while in Osaka. I also want to know whether the mooted "agreed" Classification System has been adopted by the World Federation of Rose Societies, or are reaping the rewards for the Americans pushing their system).

Deb, you really shouldn't try and draw the canes down too early. They are quite brittle in the early stages, and pull out or snap early. Restrain them to the fence in a vertical position with cord. Regarding your long laterals, maybe you're feeding programme is too rich. I rarely get laterals to 12" from bush or climbing 'Peace'. Drawing the canes down too early might too early enable apical dominance and production of longer laterals. Wait for Winter before bringing them to the horizontal, both 'Peace' and 'Peter Frankenfeld'. It is a disappointing face that the promise of everblooming climbing HTs doesn't happen. This makes Noisettes a better choice. Much less disease but unfortunately, colours are limited to white and yellow.

Curiouser and curiouser.

Any google search for Westerland will bring up a hundred references to the climber Westerland. When you said it was a giant shrub Lozza I naturally investigated further and found this.

Name: Westerland
Designation: KORwest, KORlawe
Class: Modern Large flowered climber
Hybridizer/Date: Kordes 1969
Parentage: Friedrich Worlein x Circus
Fragrance: Strong spice and rose
ARS Color: Apricot Blend
Awards: Annerkante Deutch Rose 1974, Royal National Horticultural Society Award of Merit 1993

The link for that info is below.

There is another ref to 'aka Westerland clg' on a database - forget which one - which I presume means it is sometimes referred to as this.

I once grew the David Austin rose Graham Thomas thinking I was getting a shrub rose. It was indeed a giant shrub and turned into a monster thicket with canes over an inch thick and thorns that would have protected sleeping beauty. I would have not called it a climber though, although it was quite tall. There is no way I could have bent the canes for one thing. They were ramrod straight.

This taught me a valuable lesson about climate and roses and I know how extremely frustrating and annoying it is to find things you buy aren't as described. Westerland may technically be a shrub but this is confusing to home gardeners who see it used as any other climber is. We need to know how to use our rose plants in the landscape.

MM - my little bit of research has led me to some beautiful photos of Westerland - you will love it I'm sure .

A link that might be useful -

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/pl.php?n=6065

This is what the Kordes web site has listed about it. It is not mentioned under climbers on their web site, it listed under shrubs. Yet, everywhere you look on the web you see it listed under climbers. I agree it is very confusing.

I copied this directly from the Kordes page.

Westerland®
shrubrose

order-no. (BN): 120
breeder W. Kordes Söhne 1969
ADR 1974
· width approx. 80 cm
· height approx. 150 cm
· recommended planting distance 70-80 cm
· growth habit: erect, upright
· will bloom recurrently

bud n.c.
flower vivid copper orange, large, double, with an open center, lasting, often arching, in large clusters
foliage fresh green, faintly glossy
fragrance strong
plant bushy, upright, vigorous, up to 1,5 m
in general colourful shrub rose, long flowerage from June until frost, profuse bloom, robust, ADR 1974

 this variety has fragrance
 suitable for road green areas
 suitalbe in public gardens

Hi Frannyfrip..

Because my Westerland is only in its first season here it did not have many blooms.
Here are four days of one of the blooms...Cheers..MM.

{{gwi:2112152}}

Take notice of rose dimensions from Europe when planning for Oz. Or if you do, double them.

This would only apply to some roses wouldn't it Lozza? Which ones?

It can be so frustrating trying to find how a plant will grow - most sites seem to concentrate on showing the bloom - to win us over I'm sure. Who isn't a sucker for a beautiful bloom.

Take Westerland for an example - we have just fallen in love with MM's pics of it - have to have it - who can we rely on to tell us what it will look like full grown as a shrub/climber so it can be positioned to advantage - and so make ourselves the envy of the neighbourhood? !!

Anyone?