Mary, yes we do say well done for anything that has been cooked/overcooked. So it could be said of a steak, eggs, cake etc.
We don't say 'done done' in the UK, but locally they say do do instead of does. So instead of saying "She does the shopping" it would come out as She (or sometimes 'her') d'do the shopping." Often "He said" becomes "'ee should say" The letter H seems to be superfluous in large areas of the UK :-) and I don't know if the 'should' is some ancient grammatical form such as 'Be you?" or "Am you?" or just local dialect.

Kath and Carolyn, I tend to say, to some ears, "would of" but would never write it that way. Kath is right, I suspect, that it is due to the way we talk. I'm actually saying "would 'ave," abbreviating "have." I suppose it has devolved into "would of" to the ears of many and so written. How many mothers would correct abbreviated speech?

Frieda, mind if I go off on another tangent of perhaps regional speech, or maybe even a non-word?

I was writing about one family line who left Massachusetts in the mid-seventeenth century - didn't like the political /religious environment. I wrote that my forbears had "deloped from Barnstable." Spell-check wouldn't have "delope" and the only definition I could find was a French word from dueling. A man might delope - throw away his first shot. Has this Mrs. Malaprop used the wrong word? Or has anyone else ever heard of this use of "delope?" And I don't say it with any sort of French pronunciation. Could it be a variation of lope? This my well be the first time in my life I've actually written the word, but it is clear in my memory.

Chris no mention of 'delope' in my enormous English dictionary. The nearest might be 'elope', as in to run away to get married, although there is no clear understanding of where that word originated.
Or how about lolloped, are you family with that word in the US?

Nope, never hear of lolloped, but it does burble delightfully off the tongue, doesn't it?

Alas, delope must be one of those certainties from childhood that turn out to be completely wrong.

I remember hearing 'lolloped' in the sense of leaving a place. Also the phrase 'shooting the moon' which implied leaving owing the rent! Not an uncommon occurence in the East End of London where my grandmother lived, I'm afraid.

I think that the confusion between would have and would of was a completely natural development based on pronunciation. If you say "would have" very quickly, and don't pronounce the H sharply, it sounds almost the same as when you say "would of" very quickly. I'm not at all surprised that this variation would come to pass. Wouldav is almost identical to Wouldov.

Rosefolly

I wonder if parents/teachers are bothering to encourage proper speech and usage of words any more.
Ten years ago while I was still teaching, there was a push to encourage correct English skills in all classes.
It was discouraging then to see how few students were able to write well using elaborate sentences to present their facts and ideas.
It would infuriate students when they were held to correct grammar and spelling outside an English class!
I read recently that only a very few people ever use longhand or script when writing.
I guess we are all plunged into the texting/e-mail cyberworld now where spelling, sentence structure and grammar are relics of the past.

You can count me as one relic....I want to learn Spencerian Script !!!

I have just read that in a survey of texters, men prefer to write words in full and use correct grammar. Women tend to use symbols, numbers etc. I cut corners when texting as I am not a good typist but only to people who don't mind it. Never to my daughter, who does!
A popular TV veterinarian told how he thought that LOL meant lots of love and put it at the end of a sad text message to the owner of one of his patients. One has to be so careful when using abbreviations!

My daughter teaches an evening class to registered and/or Bachelor degreed nurses who are working on a higher degree. She marks grammar errors but does not lower the grade on papers. She says most of them won't even use the computer grammar check that would catch many of the mistakes they make, and lots of them are quite resentful that she marks up their papers.

I'm a "relic", too. I still write letters by hand, and once tried to teach myself calligraphy. I still send personal cards to friends, as well. As for Spencerian handwriting, it is surely a dying art! I have saved many of my grandfather's letters, because the writing is so decorative, with many flourishes, and extras....

Some older words one never seems to hear used: e.g."sped". Would you say the deer sped down the slope but the car speeded down the road? Is there a difference?

I find the usage of "regardless" vs. "irregardless" confusing. Would you say, regardless of the consequences, he was a heavy smoker. Or would you say, irregardless of the dangers, he ascended the cliff? I have a feeling the first is incorrect, yet I hear it used often.

Irregardless is never correct. It is considered poor grammar.

As for the nurses who won't use grammar check...let's just hope that I don't ever end up in their care!!
I would really wish that a nurse should be one of those people who strives for perfection....and to ignore a tool to guarantee that is just plain disturbing.

I always told my students that they needed to choose their words carefully...like their friends...for both reflect on them. I also told them that regardless of how intelligent they are, when a reader sees a poorly written letter with many errors in grammar and spelling the writer is deemed less than brilliant.
If this piece of written work has any bearing on getting a job interview, they needed to buckle down and learn the language and how to write it intelligently.
The same with table manners.
It is quite interesting how many potential employers will admit to being really turned off by an applicant who, when taken out to lunch, appeared to not have no idea how to conduct themselves or eat properly and politely.
It greatly affected their impression of them and the impression that they would send to others regarding their company if they were hired.
Those applicants did not get a call back.

Mary, I have never heard the word 'irregardless', nor is it in the dictionary.
'Sped' is the past tense and past participle of speed so 'speeded' is incorrect.
Another thing I have never heard of is 'Spencerian' handwriting so looked it up. Apparently is was invented by a Mr Spencer in the USA. I think the nearest thing we have to it is copperplate. When done well is is a work of art.

yvonne, you are certainly right about badly written letters of application and as for table manners . . . I watched a cookery TV show recently where a family were being interviewed about the high cost of fresh food, while eating dinner. I realised I hadn't listened to any of the comments as I was amazed/fascinated by the horrible eating habits of those round the table. Not only were the smaller children eating everything with their gravy-covered fingers but even the adults were using their cutlery like weapons, stabbing food and waving it about on the end of their forks while they talked.
Another peeve of mine is the growing habit (in the UK) of people drinking from cups/mugs without holding the handle.

Any thoughts on got/gotten as past participle? I grew up saying "gotten" (German American household; it sounds Germanic to me!) but it seems odd to me these days. Do the British use "gotten" or "got"? E.g."I didn't answer you because I hadn't gotten (or got?) your letter yet"; "He had gotten (or got?) sick before the holidays."

Apropos of a post above re people saying "would of" -- but when writing, spelling it as "would have."

I use "Would've" (contraction of "would" + "have") -- when speaking or writing casual / personal messages. "Would've" *sounds like* "would of" .

(I tried to find it in several dictionaries, but could only find "could've".)

I agree that the would have/of is caused by would've sounding like would of, but wondered if others had seen it written with such regularity as I have.

I would never say 'speeded'.

I think Australians still use 'gotten' a lot of the time, but in Laura's second example, I would say 'he got sick before the holidays'. I'm not enough of a grammarian to say what tense I am using there (simple past?).

I use got/gotten in speech, but I try to avoid it in writing. Don't remember why. Could it simply be that it is an inelegant word?

We never use gotten in 'English' English, so the sentence "He had gotten sick before the holidays" would be "He had become ill before the holidays" We never use the word sick to mean ill/unwell. In the UK "He was sick" means he vomited.
Re the word got it seems to have become a 'cover-all/lazy' word. "I hadn't got your letter" could be said as " I hadn't received your letter. Perhaps I'm just being pedantic . . .
Interesting how different UK from US grammar/word-use is in just that one sentence.:-)

Chris in the Valley struck a note w/ me when she posted that "got" / "gotten" sounds inelegant. Years ago I came to that conclusion (on my own -- just didn't like the caveman-like sound (hee-hee!) of those 2 words).

Sometimes, tho', I still use them because I just can't come up w/ anything better -- or the substitute words (e.g. "receive") sound too formal for casual conversation / note-writing ... or are too long-winded (e.g. "had become").

Kath, I was surprised to read that Australians use 'gotten' as I don't hear it used here in WA. I did notice that George Negus said it on his promo for the new current affairs program which he is hosting. I thought he had gone American!
To explain to US readers, sometimes advertisers use an American voice-over to draw attention to a product or use copy that must come from a similar US advert. This does not always sound right though. A current advert for KFC has a woman offering her husband 'Mondays meatloaf'. Not, I believe, something Australian women generally make, correct me if I am wrong, Kath, June or any other Australian poster!

Australian housewives do occasionally make meatloaf but not as a regular thing among any I know.

Actually I think of meatloaf as a meal from the 1950s and 1960s, a way to stretch the grocery budget, something akin to Jello mold desserts. Do people still make meatloaf? Now that so many women work outside the home, I thought that convenience food had taken the place of budget meals, and really fine cooking replaced standard fare. Perhaps that is a California foodie thing. Here people I know either pop something from the freeze into the microwave or cook from scratch with fresh (often organic) ingredients. It is such an international area that the ethnic food is inspirational.

Rosefolly

I usually do not say "gotten" but I do say "forgotten", as do most people I know. I notice that "proved" (it was proved) has replaced "proven" (it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt). I seldom hear strove/striven - it is always "strived." I wonder if the trend to make all verbs regular is because students are no longer taught the irregular ones. I do not remember my children ever having to conjugate verbs like I did in school.

annpan, I am having difficulty imagining the context of "Mondays meatleaf" in a KFC advertisement. Is it something like: why not have KFC instead of (the same old) Monday's meatloaf?

Ann, I tried some sentences with 'gotten' and found I was saying 'gott'n' in that way we have of swallowing sounds (Melb'n - which I noticed Oprah had been taught to say *VBG*). Something like:
"He hadn't gotten over the first thing when the second happened".
As for meatloaf, I have never made it, but I do quite often make meatballs, which I suppose are just mini meatloaves. Never touch KFC! (Shudder!!)

I guess I am just an old f**t, I make meatloaf all of the time. Here in Maine we make it with local organic pasture-raised, grass-fed beef that has been slaughtered humanely, organic free-range eggs, hand-milled artisan bread - you get the idea. Extra points for purchasing these ingredients directly from the farmer who raised the livestock on his/her own homestead which is protected from development by leasehold agreements.

I'm being somewhat facetious, but I do make an excellent meatloaf.

Oh Siobhan, if only we lived in a world where such ethical eating was affordable and available to all. I only buy "free run" eggs, but that is about as ethical as I can manage. I did, however, stop eating pork (including ham and bacon) after watching Death on a Factory Farm. (I don't know if most people could make it through that documentary.)

Meatloaf , when made well, can be delicious !!
Think of it as a big meatball in brick form :0)
I don't eat meat very often, but I do have to say that I make one wonderful meatloaf ( of course with Lipton's onion soup !)
Bear in mind that I am a retired Home Economics teacher who is obliged to cook well.
My husband used to love to crow that I " didn't bring my work home with me ".

None of my meals ever made anyone CRAPULENT !!

(How's that for using our newest word )

We do cook meatloaf in our house, if made with all of the right seasonings it can be very tasty. We usually have it with roast vegies first up and then it is yum yum cold on sangers with chutney or pickles!!
In the summer it can be made by placing boiled eggs in the centre and then baked, sliced cold it is a great picnic lunch and very pretty!!
To make it slice well mix sausage mince with the beef.

I make meatloaf occasionally, too, by the recipe from the 1953 edition of the Better Homes & Gardens red plaid cookbook.

Yoyobon, I'd be interested in having your recipe with onion soup. I like cooking with it and have a good crockpot recipe for a kind of stroganoff minus the sour cream that uses the soup mix.

Lydia, quite correct! This is a series of new ads aimed at persuading people to get Streetwise KFC instead of eating leftovers!
Nothing wrong with meatloaf but it is not a regular thing for busy working women to make, I think. There are so many good ready-made meals available in the supermarkets and take-away shops that I hardly need to cook at all! Just the occasional soup or winter stew in my trusty pressure cooker to use up wilting vegetables. :-)

Another one I've had difficulty with is this: learned vs learnt. When I read this (learnt) the first time (and several times after that), I kept thinking this was bad English, based on feeling more than fact Here are a couple more examples but I haven't seen them as often:

burned, burnt
dreamed, dreamt
kneeled, knelt
leaned, leant
leaped, leapt
spelled, spelt
spilled, spilt
spoiled, spoilt

I guess burnt and knelt may be more often used in the US as well. I believe all are correct past tense.

Most Australians, and I am sure, most Britons, would use the 't' endings of those words. Another Commonwealth/American difference :-)

Of iamkathy's list, I would only use knelt. Don't know why!

I'm sure most Americans say keep/kept, sleep/slept, mean/meant, leave/left, feel/felt, and several others. We are schizo about the -t and -ed endings, it seems. On Kathy's list, I use the -t about as frequently as the -ed, but I credit that to living in the UK for several years amongst the 't' enders.

Kathy, I got the impression when I was growing up that learned/learnt was uneducated "hillbilly" talk. I've even been corrected by adult Americans when I've used spelt or spilt.

We say spilled, but we do use the adage "Don't cry over spilt milk," at least here in my area.

I ran across this accidentally, but thought it fit well into this, our latest thread on English language and usage. I have not read it. It seems to be book about those who think that language ought to follow rules for clarity vs those who believe the language should adapt for better expressiveness. It goes back quite some time. Apparently this is not a new conversation. And why am I not surprised? Some version of it is frequently the liveliest thread we have going on this forum!

Rosefolly

Here is a link that might be useful: Language Wars

Rosefolly, I'll be ordering The Language Wars. Thanks for bringing it to my attention, especially since I have a prescriptivist/descriptivist war going on in my own head. Part of the training in the field work I had to do for linguistics courses was to never, ever let prescriptive bias show. It was hard sometimes! But I've never fully liked the hidebound attitudes of the prescriptivists either. I have always liked the quote (can't remember who said it): "Learn the rules of grammar so you can break them with impunity."

Meatloaf is one of my son's "must-have" meals when he is home on holiday from college. The Barefoot Contessa recently devoted a whole show to it. yummy.

A word that stands out to me, and used quite a lot is "lighted" in he lighted the fire or a cigarette. To me it should be "lit" which is the past tense of light, so my Oxford told me.

"Lighted" sounds wrong to my ear. I would prefer "lit".

Meatloaf can be a classic, and there are many variations of it, depending upon how many or which vegetables are chopped up and put in it. My late husband created the most wonderful meat loaf I have ever tasted. I still have his recipe. It's the perfect dish for a cold winter's day....

Meatloaf.......my Dad, the "Great White Hunter" used to imagine that he made the best venison meatloaf ever created.
Of course I couldn't stand the smell or taste.
One time, when he proudly presented my daughter with a freshly baked meatloaf for dinner her Labrador Retriever took one sniff of it and started barking hysterically with her ruff up.
The nose knows!

Woodnymph, would you share your husband's recipe?

Yes please Mary, I'd second that. I keep hearing/reading about meatloaf but have yet to taste it.

BAREFOOT CONTESSA'S MEATLOAF RECIPE

1 tablespoon good olive oil
3 cups chopped yellow onions (3 onions)
1 teaspoon chopped fresh thyme leaves
2 teaspoons kosher salt
1 teaspoon freshly ground black pepper
3 tablespoons Worcestershire sauce
1/3 cup canned chicken stock or broth
1 tablespoon tomato paste
2� pounds ground chuck (81% lean)
� cup plain dry bread crumbs, such as Progresso
2 extra-large eggs, beaten
1/2 cup ketchup, preferably Heinz
Preheat the oven to 325 degrees.

Heat the olive oil in a medium saut� pan. Add the onions, thyme, salt, and pepper and cook over medium-low heat, stirring occasionally, for 8 to 10 minutes, until the onions are translucent but not brown. Off the heat, add the Worcestershire sauce, chicken stock, and tomato paste. Allow to cool slightly.

In a large bowl, combine the ground chuck, onion mixture, bread crumbs, and eggs, and mix lightly with a fork. Don�t mash or the meatloaf will be dense. Shape the mixture into a rectangular loaf on sheet pan covered with parchment paper. Spread the ketchup evenly on top. Bake for 1 to 1� hours, until the internal temperature is 160 degrees and the meat loaf is cooked through. (A pan of hot water in the oven, under the meat loaf, will keep the top from cracking.) Serve hot.

Friends, I have just tried to post the requested meatloaf recipe, but it was rejected. Will try again....

HWG Meatloaf, 1984

1 1/4 ground hamburger
breadcrumbs (handful)
2 eggs
1/2 green pepper, diced
1 large onion, cut fine
1 carrot, slightly precooked
1-2 celery stalks, cut fine
2 minced garlic cloves
1 can drained button mushrooms, or use fresh, cut up
1 T. Worcestershire sauce.
Herbs: minced fresh parsley, 2 sage leaves, cut up, marjoram, and Bay leaf to go on top of loaf.
Mix all the above together.

Topping: one can Campbell's tomato bisque soup.
Bake 1 and 1/2 hour at 350 or until done

Here is a completely different version of American meatloaf:

Mix 2 lbs ground sirloin
2 lbs. ground pork,
2 lbs. ground veal, with:
1 cup diced celery
1/2 cup finely chopped parsley
8 oz tomato paste
2 beaten eggs,
1 Tablsp. Worcestershire sauce
1/2 cup bread crumbs
pinch Marjoram.
Shape into a loaf. Top with bacon strips
Cook for about 1 hour 350-375, or until done.

Coming up. Hated to see this thread die so abruptly....

Thank you for bringing this up Mary, I had missed the meatloaf recipes.
All very interesting, especially as here in the UK we are unlikely to use/add cans of soup to a recipe.
One question please.
How do you get the 'shape' to remain intact during cooking? What stops it from crumbling? Would it be possible to do it in a loaf-tin?

The bread crumbs, milk and egg (in my recipe, anyway) help it hold the shape. I try to shape it in the bowl and move it to the pan as much in one piece as possible.
But you can cook it in a loaf pan-the only trouble then is any fat has no where to go, and the cooking time is a little different. But my recipe calls for either the loaf pan or the 8x12 glass pan.

The egg binds the rest of the ingredients.
A meatloaf can also be made into a big flat ball, surrounded by peeled potatoes and carrots, covered with a can of tomato soup and baked in a larger pan with sides. If you keep the ball about the same thickness it will cook evenly. Perhaps about 3" thick?