If I may be allowed the space to continue tirade, even if the it full of holes; I would first say that the article in question is simply bad science with more philosophy than actual science. Please take the time to read it. http://www.wildones.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Nativars-Statement-with-reference.pdf There is not one specific, verified, example of any damage done to a native population by the use of "nativars". As I said in my previous posting, there are no savage hoards of nativar Hostas rampaging through the forests of Eurasia. The same can be said for Franken-Flower coneflowers in the Midwest. It just isn't happening. It is very important to have a modicum of understanding of how genetics and mutation works. Most mutations are both recessive and undesirable. A chance mutation appearing in a native population will only continue and get into the general gene pool if it is either beneficial or benign. If it is beneficial it will work its way through the population by giving those that have it a competitive advantage. If it is benign, it will continue to show up but not very often and will not make any difference to the viability of the species. Those mutations that are deleterious produce individuals that will either not live at all or not be able to compete in nature and thus not reproduce. In our case, a weakened plant. Nature selects for strong plants that are able to compete and reproduce in their own niches. Humans do not. Most of the modifications humans make to plant and animals are done for our own purposes and tastes. Because we are selecting mostly mutations, the resultant organisms are less likely to be able to survive in the natural world. Big flowers with floppy stems and cows with huge udders are the same thing. Neither one will be an advantage in nature. So, what would happen if we planted on species of coneflower (since that seems to be the favored plant in the article) and surround it with acres of a single nativar of coneflower. What will happen? Over time, and I don't know how long, ALL of the coneflowers in that area would be the native species. Why? Not all of the nativars would be able to survive to reproduce. Those nativars that did survive would be reproducing by seed. Even though the nativar looks different from the species, it still has much more in common genetically with the species than differences. That includes the basic genetics that make it a coneflower. Each seed produced by the nativars would still have a great deal of genetic diversity. Those that are closer to the single species coneflower would have even more diversity because of crosspollination. The rules of natural selection would still be in effect. Only those seeds that are viable would germinate and only those seedlings that are strong would reproduce. Since the proven form is the species form, nature would select for that form. There is also a reason from physics for this. It is called entropy. Going from an organized state to a disorganized state. From complex to simple. A cultivar is a more complex form of the organism, a less stable form. It takes more energy to maintain the cultivar form. It takes less energy to survive in the species form. This drive to return to the species form is seen in both plants and animals. What happens to Phlox that are allowed to go to seed? Do they retain the fancy forms and colors? No, they revert to the species form. Freesia? Same thing. How many high quality apples will you get by planting seeds from your favorite apple? Probably none. They all want to revert to the species form. It may take a few generations but anything that is not a competitive advantage will eventually be jettisoned. In fish, those fancy guppies will go back to their original form if allowed to breed at will. Betas will do the same. Have you ever seen what happens to populations of goldfish that are allowed to breed indiscriminately? They become plane old ugly carp. One of our oldest breeding experiments has been the dog. What would happen if we let our dogs breed at will. In Australia, they became Dingos. You can see similar populations in poorer countries with big cities and open garbage dumps. The dogs tend to be of medium size, yellow with pointed ears held up and curled tails. In the southern U.S. we see feral pigs in the process of reverting. It is just a given that varieties are inherently unstable. Unless there is some empirical, verifiable, replicable evidence of any degradation of the gene pool, the nativar problem is philosophical, not scientific.

There are no Cupressus glabra or arizonica native to California. Botanists looking at herbarium specimens have previously placed Cupressus nevadensis and stephensonii in "arizonica", but this has been proved wrong by molecular testing, as well. I have seen the hybrid, it is about thirty feet tall and located near Central Point, Oregon. It looks like...well, a hybrid between goveniana and glabra. Any Cupressus native to North America are liable to hybridize with each other. Cupressus macrocarpa and nootkatensis (the parent trees of Cupressus x leylandii) were supposedly about 300 meters apart from each other when their pollen mixed in a British Garden 90 years ago...the wind can carry microscopic pollen grains quite far.

Hi Opuntiagrower, First of all, welcome to GardenWeb. I noticed you just recently registered here. As an amateur zinnia breeder, I have confronted the same questions in zinnias that you have with respect to squash cultivars. You have asked some good questions, and it will take more than one message to adequately address them, but I do have a few comments. "What would happen if I bought 10 different cultivars of C. maxima, and the first year I crossed 2 of the cultivars, then crossed the resulting hybrid with the third cultivar, then crossed that hybrid with the fourth cultivar all the way to 10. Basically, every year adding a new set of cultivar genes to the gene pool of the "hybrid". Would this be good? I have heard of cases where prolonged outbreeding is actually bad. Can anyone shed some light on what they think might happen?" When you save seeds from an F1`hybrid, the genes tend to randomly "unmix" and recombine in the F2 generation. In other words, the F1 generation will be pretty uniform, given that your cultivars are reasonably well inbred and stabilized (homozygous). But the cellular processes of meiosis involve many random recombinations of genes, such that the F2 generation of a single hybrid can produce a whole spectrum of differently appearing squashes (phenotypes). So, when you start to add in that third cultivar in the second year of your project, you will be crossing it with potentially thousands of different "virtual" F2 squashes from your first year. I say "virtual" because the pollen grains and egg cells that you will be working with will have been produced by many random recombinations in the meiosis processes. The breeding possibilities of combining 10 cultivars of squashes involves a potentially astronomical number of different results. Simply because meiosis always produces a very large number of different results when the parent is heterozygous (a hybrid). The pollen grain of a hybrid contains a random recombination of genes. And the egg cell also contains a random recombination of genes. Variations multiplied by variations. I would suggest you could speed up your process of combining the genes from the 10 different cultivars by not waiting a year to add in each new cultivar. Simply make all possible hybrids of your 10 cultivars the first year. Grow them all and cross them all. How many hybrids could you make that first year from 10 cultivars? Mathematically, that would be a combination of 10 things taken 2 at a time. Combinatorially, that works out to 45 different hybrids, if we don't distinguish between which cultivar is the female and which cultivar is the male. If you want each cultivar to participate as both a male and a female, that would double to 90 different crosses between your 10 cultivars. You can show this graphically by placing 10 points on a circle and then connecting a line between each of the points with the other points, and put an arrow head on both ends of each line. It may seem apparent at this time that the planet doesn't have enough land area to grow all the different examples of squashes that could be produced by this project. In order to cut this down to something that your garden space can accommodate, my suggestion would be make several different crosses the first year, probably less than the 45 different combinations, and to grow as many seeds from those crosses as you have space for the second year. In that second year, carefully evaluate your F1 hybrids, and save seeds from your favorites and also inter-cross some or all of them. In the third year you will get a tremendous variety of different squash phenotypes. So cull them severely, saving only those that appeal most to you. And self and cross your favorites to produce seed for the fourth year. Things will really start to get interesting that fourth year. My zinnias have done some amazing things for me. You may have some follow-up questions or comments, and I will be glad to respond to them. Just out of curiosity, what 10 cultivars of squash were you planning to grow? ZM This post was edited by zenman on Tue, May 13, 14 at 16:54

I knew I'd forget something: Since Lilium x formolongi plants are continuously growing, the bulb stays very small. With several stalks in a plant, the bulb looked to be only about the size of a quarter in a photo he showed. And we each got a packet of L. x formolongi seed to play with too.