Actually, having a will without having a revocable trust isn't a wise idea. Depending on the amount of assets, a will must go through probate (at least in California). But if you have a trust your wishes will be followed, and no probate is involved. Then you should make sure that most assets are either assigned to the trust or have the trust made owner of. I say most, not all. Some things it is not wise to put in the trust. And there are two POAs that should be considered. A limited POA (financial) and a Health Directive.

I know you want to avoid using an attorney, but depending on your assets, it may still be the wisest way to go. Yes, I work for an attorney, but I'm not selling his services or even advocating for attorneys. I'm just saying, you want it done right, don't you? You may be able to save a bit of money if the attorney charges to transfer assets (some do, some don't), by doing it yourself. You can file the deed for the home, and letters or forms to financial institutions yourself. For the deed, you would just need to follow your county guidelines for margins, spacing, font size, etc. and type a deed exactly as it already appears, stating that the new trust will be the new owner.

Thanks Donna. I'm not saying I don't want to use an attorney. I just don't want him/her "selling" me unnecessary docs just to pad their wallet. I don't really know what I need. They can entice anyone with getting this and that to make us think we need it all.

That said, I realize the POA - both kinds - are important. BTW, we're in PA if that matters.

Thanks again.

The way it sounds, you don't know what you want to do with your estate so you're not prepared to make an estate plan. You need to sit down and decide what you want to do.

And I'm going to be blunt. You're afraid to spend a few hundred dollars to ensure 1/2 million dollar estate is distributed as you like? That's a contested estate waiting to happen.

Each state varies on probate laws. Normally the estate goes to the surviving spouse, then to children, the parents, siblings then the extended family but again, that varies so don't take that as gospel. You need to do some research on what will happen if you die intestate. Maybe that's how you want it distributed. Most still suggest that a Will will simplify probate even if it's just following the intestate laws. Keep in mind if one spouse goes first, the deceased spouse's family will be out in many cases. It'll usually go to the surviving spouse's family unless there's a Will or a Trust.

You should also consider if you want to have a Living Will to state your desires on care.

If you have a simple estate plan, the cost of having it professionally prepared isn't that much when you look at the big picture. You can get an idea of costs by talking to a competent probate attorney.

I guess in the big picture once we're dead it doesn't really matter to us what happens to our "stuff". But I know I do not want certain people to benefit from my work so I'm having a Will. I don't really think I have enough to put into a Trust but am looking into it since there are certain advantages to it. Remember you can change things if you want to. It's not set in stone.

If you truly don't want to leave anything to relatives, you will need a Will or a Trust. Setting up scholarships and the like is not something I would want to do without legal advice! That is if I wanted to be sure it didn't get siphoned off by an administrator.

Do yourself a favor. At least talk to a competent attorney. Find out what you need to have prepared to do this. You can do some of the footwork yourself to save some money but I'd still say this is a time where a do it yourself brain surgery kit is not appropriate. And yes you'll spend some money. They charge couple hundred dollars an hour or more. But it sounds to me that even a couple thousand would be money well spent once you decide what you want to do.

A poor estate plan begs for family to contest it. And a poorly written Will can be contested. Former Chief Justice Warren Burger wrote a terrible Will and it cost his family a small fortune because of his incompetence. Just something to ponder.

"Actually, having a will without having a revocable trust isn't a wise idea."
Wow. That's a strange statement coming from someone working in a law office! The OP said they don't want it going to relatives, and without a Will (unless you have a Trust but most attorneys advise having a Will WITH the Trust) you will follow your states intestate laws. I did a quick search and here's what the order was that was listed. I won't link to the source since it's a law office and I don't want to endorse one.What if there is no surviving spouse? What about the portion of the estate that is not going to the surviving spouse? The laws of Intestate Succession at 20 Pa.C.S.A. 2103, provide for the share of the estate, if any, that is not going to the surviving spouse or which passes if there is no surviving spouse. This section of the statute regulates the passing of the remaining share.

1. Children. First, to the children of the decedent.
   2. Parents. If no children survive the decedent, the decedentÂs parents share the estate equally; if only one parent survives, the surviving parent takes the entire estate. Recall that, if the decedent was survived by a spouse, the spouse will take the first $30,000.00 and one-half of the remaining estate. So, in the event there is a surviving parent of the decedent, the surviving spouse will get $30,000.00 plus half the remaining estate and the surviving parent will receive the other one-half of the remaining estate. If both parents survive the decedent, they will share the remaining one-half.
   3. Brother, Sister, or their Children. If no children and no parents survive the decedent, then the estate will be distributed to the children of the decedentÂs parents (the decedentÂs siblings and their children).
   4. Grandparents. If no siblings survive the decedent, then the grandparents of the decedent shall receive, one-half to the paternal grandparents and one-half to the maternal grandparents, and their children.
   5. Uncles, Aunts, and their Children and Grandchildren. If no grandparents survive the decedent, the estate is distributed to the decedentÂs uncles, aunts, and their children and grandchildren.
   6. Commonwealth. If no one mentioned above survives the decedent, then the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania collects.
   I realize California pushes Trusts quite heavily. They're not as popular in MN but are becoming more common. But we have different probate laws too.

Most places recommend NOT putting everthing into a trust for various reasons. And given that you have to transfer everything to it, you can hardly expect to transfer EVERYTHING you have to the trust. So without a Will and having only a Trust, what's not in the trust goes to your relatives when you and your spouse are gone. So a Trust is not the end-all cure-all. It's part of an estate plan. Just like saying you're going to "eat right" to get healthy, but overlook risk taking, exercise, and the like.

Many lawyers will give you a free visit to discuss some things. Even spending for an office call might put your mind at ease. I really recommend you do this. Good luck in whatever you decide.

I'm sorry, ilovechocolate, I read you original post too quickly and assumed that you didn't want to involve an attorney.

Cynic, I didn't say that anyone should have a trust INSTEAD of a will. I believe you should have both. Regardless of whether you are leaving anything to relatives or not, or are only establishing scholarships, a trust is much more reliable in assuring that your wishes are complied with.

And I specifically said that not ALL assets should go into the trust. I don't know about Pennsylvania, but in California your statement that all must go into the trust is not the case. Indeed, some things CANNOT have the trust be made the owner or beneficiary of.

Just as you said, these are all PARTS of an estate plan.

As Cynic said, you should at least see an attorney. If nothing else, he will help you determine the best course of action. And a good attorney will also let you know what things you can handle yourself to save money and which things an attorney would handle best.

Good luck.

I am not an expert but I will tell you what we were told when we did ours. Take it for what it's worth.

Unless you have assets of over 1 million dollars, a trust is not really beneficial.I don't remember the 'why' of that statement, that's just what we were told.

We paid a flat rate for the trust. There was no 'upselling'. There are certain documents that are required and then of course we were asked if we wanted health directives and POA's, but they didn't increase the price. We have a minor child and decisions had to be made for him and his care. That was the hardest part for us.

You say you don't plan on leaving anything to anyone but if you don't specify where your estate will go, then it will go to next of kin. If there is no next of kin, the state will surely take it. Is that what you really want?

Why can't you make a favorite charity or university or whatever, your beneficiary with the provision that they use it in the manner you specify (scholarships, grants, etc)?

Donna,

What things are you talking about specifically that can't go in a trust? Just curious because we put all our assets in ours unless I am forgetting something.

I put POD (pay on death) with the heir's name on my accounts and TOD (transfer on death) with the heir's name on my home and car. That can be transferred by presenting a death certificate, no lawyers, or courts. My heir is a local college and they wanted a will just in case someone in the family contested it. My attorney only charged $400. and that included my POA, Living Will, Comfort Care only and he added that the POA could pay all outstanding bills "after" my death. He also took care of the TOD at the court house. He complimented me for choosing TOD and POD, he said that locks it up tight. A living trust is also good, but I don't have anyone I can trust except my sisters and they are older than I am.

A trust cannot own a retirement account, but it is made a secondary beneficiary of the account (after spouse, usually). Life insurance can be owned by a trust, or can be made secondary beneficiary. Businesses, partnerships, stocks, and other things can be "assigned" to the trust. As in the case of life insurance, where there is more than one way to handle an asset, the attorney is best able to help you decide what is right for you.

I should have read the other replies before I replied. There are many kinds of trust. What I suggested is a living trust. My attorney recommended that before I told him about what I had already done regarding the TOD and POD. He said what I had done was even better and more secure. If anyone contested the TOD and POD the judge would just throw out the case.

The only problem with TOD and POD is when and if the assets with these designations don't match what might be stated in a will.

We ran into this handling the estate of an elderly relative who had 4 surviving siblings. The will indicated all were to share equally, but over the years her CDs and other assets with PODs and TODs got away from her and were not even remotely equal. However, on death, they belonged to the individuals named - and the discrepancies had to be juggled and equalled out from undesignated assets. It took more than a year to make a final distribution.

I, for one, do not begrudge a good lawyer the money it took to get all the docs, will, and Revocable Living Trust in place. People unwittingly leave messes for others to mop up and I don't want to do that. Peace of mind = priceless!

I spoke to a female attorney a little bit ago via phone. She said the only docs I would need are POAs, Will, and Living Will. She did not recommend a trust for reasons that I don't understand, but I'll look into that again elsewhere.

I certainly will have my monies go to charities and/or colleges. The state will not get it nor will anyone in my family (undeserving & they're not in touch anyway). Thanks for the POD and TOD advice; I'll make sure to do that.

This attorney charges $250/hour and said it should take 3 hours to prep the above mentioned docs. WOW!!!!

I think I'll continue to look around for another attorney and get more educated via the Internet. This female attorney didn't appear to have all the answers and said she forgets to write things down which is why she doesn't charge for every phone convo .... she actually said that (RED FLAG!!!!).

Our firm does not charge per hour for estate planning. After an initial meeting to determine the scope of the engagement, a set fee is determined. Maybe you can find an attorney whose fees are determined "per engagement".

But I will say that at $250 an hour and an estimated time frame of 3 hours ($750), that is still only a little more than half the average fee in my neck of the woods.

My attorney said I didn't need a will with TOD and POD, but since the college wanted one we made one to cover the contents of the house and anything we might have forgotten. He said they don't even need to use it unless someone contests the estate plans. You can do the TOD and POD for your kids, just put all their names on it. My brother in law had aunts that never married or had children. They made their nephews the heirs and my brother in law lost 60% of his share to the attorneys. Everyone thinks probate takes your money, probate is only a process and the fee here is around or was around $35. My niece lives in a circle of professional people like lawyers. One of the lawyer's wives was bragging about going to Europe with the fees her husband received for handling the estate of Mr John Doe. She thought it was very funny. Having money doesn't necessarily mean you have class.

Having sat through countless estate-planning seminars (I'm a lawyer), I understand all the arguments for revocable living trusts, but I still think they're *way* oversold to middle-income people who don't have a pressing reason for a trust, such as a special-needs child.

They can help minimize federal estate taxes - for people who will actually *owe* them. (The exemption as of 2009 is $3.5 million per person, so that doesn't include most of us.) They can't minimize income taxes, help you to qualify for Medicaid, prevent disgruntled wanna-be heirs from contesting your wishes, or protect you from creditors.

They do let you bypass probate for the assets that are in the trust, but whether that's a big deal or not depends on where you live. I gather it's a big deal in California, but it's not so big in Massachusetts, for example, where I practice. And remember, not everything you own is included in your probate estate, only things you own individually and that do not have named beneficiaries.

Think of an average couple's assets. They have a house, maybe two, held as joint tenants with right of survivorship - not part of the probate estate. They have some IRAs and/or 401(K)s and have named each other as beneficiary - not part of the probate estate. Life insurance? Not part of the probate estate. Bank accounts with joint owners? Not part of the probate estate. For many people, there is very little that *is* included in the probate estate.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't get a revocable living trust, but be clear why you want it before you do. Do you and your husband own most things jointly or have you named one another as beneficiaries? Then when the first of you dies, there won't be much to probate. When the second dies? Well, you don't have kids or anyone in particular that you're trying to benefit, so why spend your money now to avoid probate in the future?

Joann23456 is absolutely right. Remember that estate laws vary from state to state, so what is law or allowable in one state may not be in another. I was a legal assistant in New York and California and believe me when I say that many facets of the law can be glaringly different, depending on where you reside.

IMHO, an attorney who specializes in estate planning would most likely be your best bet. Most of them "do wills" as bread and butter, but believe me, it will pay to do some research to find someone more focused on estate planning.

Ooops - Two "believe me" - hadn't had any coffee yet LOL.

In reviewing our 10 year old Powers of Attorney for Health, I discovered they are out of date due to medical confidentiality acts put in place after our POA's were signed.

DH and I are in Oklahoma. We are both 51 and have no children. We went to an attorney about 18 months ago to "get our affairs in order." I had asked our CPA to give me a couple of names to choose from, which he did.

We didn't know what we wanted or needed, but the attorney was good about asking questions and making recommendations.
The process took a few months, but we ended up with a will, revocable trust, POAs, and some other stuff. (It is in the safe right now or I'd look!)

Ours was about $1,600.

I should have mentioned that in our family we are dealing surviving spouses which are women. When I was married everything was with right of survivor ship and nothing else was needed. When my husband died, no action was needed regarding our estate. It was after his death that I needed to do what I did to keep it out of the courts.

You could check out Suze Orman's website.