I don't have any real information that would be helpful, but I do know older dogs can exhibit signs of dementia, just as people do. Both my parents ultimately became confused and agitated whenever there was a departure from their normal routine. Do you think this could be the case with Angel?

I don't know what to advise you since you have talked with your vet about it. Poor ole girl. You might check out the doggie diapers on eBay. I just looked at some for Amber's Harley. He isn't that old. I think I can make him some Belly bands. For the girl doggies it is made differently. So that might be something you could check into. Something about the feel of the band around the middle keeps them from having a problem or you can put a pad inside if necessary. Then too, maybe at her age she just has a weak bladder. I know Amber has to give her Angel a doxie some medication from the vet for her tinkle at night. It works. Good luck with your Angel. Sorry she got so stressed.

Sue

I think the change in routine really stressed her. How is she doing today? You will know when it is time. It will be very difficult but you will know. Gentle hugs to you both.

Separation anxiety. My dog would have been the same way.

Have you tried using puppy pads on the floor for her instead of plastic and paper. They are so much easy to clean up and there must be a scent or something because the dog will go right to them when it is time to go to the bathroom. I used them for Loki when he was a puppy.

Anne

It may have just been the confinement that stressed her. I put my at the time 7 year old dog in our laundry room once (he had got into the neighbor's trash and was having stomach issues) while I went out. He obviously was very upset at being closed up in the small room. He totally destroyed the door jam and left big scratches on our door. Maybe dogs can be claustrophobic too?

You might see if the change of routine is indeed the problem;
return to her old routine, even if you have to put down a lot of papers & such.

If she barks & circles anyway, then, in my thoughts, it's time.

(If *I* were walking around in circles, confused, upset, incoherent, I'd want to go...
& I'd hope someone would help me.)

im not sure what a briard mix is i prob got the spelling wrong, but if he or she is 16 years old and used to being with you locking her in the bathroom would probably scare the bejeebers out of her, that makes them feel punished tand seperated from you the mom. i know i had to do that once with my dog it almost broke my heart, when company came id stay in the room with him...yes he was a biter and couldnt stand anyone coming near me! please dont feel bad you were trying what you thought was best. dogs are funny creatures, but if she/he is really in pain then talk to the vet...dont beat yourself up i did and cried for days! dont do that at least take into consideration that you were trying your best. many hugs to you.

I don't think a dog can tell us when it's time. I honestly believe we must observe them and make that decision no matter how hard it is for us. Thankfully they don't worry about how they feel or if they're achy or in pain. It's our responsibility as their caregivers to judge when it's time to go. We've had to make that decision for 6 beloved pets and it's painful. But I will always remember what my eldest son said to me last year when we were facing the same problem with Cleo. He gave me a big hug and said "Mom we owe them good days" and he was right. I'll be thinking of you Susan.

Thank you, everyone. I appreciate your input. It's hard to view this sort of thing objectively, and others' thoughts help.

Angel is back to her old routine, and is asleep at my side as I write this. Just so you know, she is not used to being with me at night because I sleep upstairs and for a long time now she's had to stay downstairs. Wolfy (Husky-Shepherd), too.

Wildchild, like you I've felt remorse about waiting too long. But I also had one experience where I acted too soon, I think, and that has always bothered me. She was my first dog, and I didn't know what I know now. But it's always a delicate belance, and I'm aware that in my desire to get the timing just right I run a risk. If I wait until I know I'm putting them out of their misery, almost by definition I'm creating misery to put them out of.

If I were to act truly selfishly (or, some would say, sensibly), both my dogs would be gone. At this point I am so stressed and worn out by this situation. However, to put one or both of them to sleep before their time (or what I consider their time to be) would ultimately not be selfish at all because of the guilt I would feel.

Angel and Wolfy are so tied to what I think of as my "happy family years." It's imperative to me that I get this right. But perhaps this is an unrealistic goal.

Linked below is more on this story. Since I wrote it on June 2, Wolfy has stopped getting me up every night. Either the Amitriptyline is now working, or he's trashed the pantry so badly that it no longer tempts him. But whatever the reason, that situation, at least, is a lot better. Also since that writing, Angel is panting and pacing more. Not in circles, but from room to room downstairs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Angel and Wolfy - the whole story

Mcmann, I hadn't seen your post when I posted my response. I like what your son said. Based on that and what the others said above, I'm going to have to take a hard look at Angel's days and see if they can be classified as "good" between the high points of dinner and walks. Thank you.

I don't know but I'd bark my head off and pant and pant if I thought I'd be stuck in the bathroom with the door closed too. doesn't sould like TLC to me JMHO I'd be laying on the floor next to her in the kitchen I think

Susan,
I read the link to your blog about your dogs and saw their picture. What beautiful, sweet babies, you can see it in their eyes. I cannot help you in your quest as I too will have to face that someday, I don't know the answers. All I can do it pray that you will find the peace in your heart that says "I know what I need to do without any doubt," and that will be your answer.
Blessings,
Darleen

I have grown up with pets all my life and it is very hard to lose them. To make that horrible decision to let them go.

The thing is that all we can think of is I can't live without them and that is on your mind instead of she is not having a life anymore. Need to say your goodbyes and let her go. Its the hardest but the most kindest thing you can do for your pet is to let them go.

I went and read your story of these two wonderful dogs. I'm sorry but I will say what the vet cannot. It broke my heart to read of Wolfy's inability to get up on the sofa, his lack of appetite and his anxiety. His night pattern in the pantry brought tears to my eyes.

I'm sorry but you have two elderly dogs that are being kept alive by sheer will and modern medicine.

I beg you to take another look and set them free. They are staying for you. You need to allow them move on.

I'm so sorry but that is what I see. Like Kathleen said it is the kindest act. What they are living now is not.

They love you and you obviously love them. Give them that final gift of your love for them.

has anyone ever read the poem (and lord i hate saying this) when a vet puts an animal to sleep? its written from a pets point of view? its a very nice poem to thank their owner for all the cherished years together and to thank them for releasing themof pain, as we as pet lovers may love them but we are selfish because we are afraid to let them go but they want to go because they hurt so much ? that poem, im sure i could recite it word for word because of all the pets we had but reading it omg makes me cry everytime because i always thought we waited to long and too think we put our feelings ahead of that..i felt like a selfish idiot! i think ann landers put it in her column a few times but ive got it from the vet...i can get it but id rather not it would upset my mom way too much to have to search for it. ok now im crying because i know just how hard this is for anyone...sorry

Here is one version of the poem.

If you click on the "home" logo at the bottom of the page it takes you to other pet reflections.

Here is a link that might be useful: A Pet's Plea

Your dog may have been exhibiting separation anxiety and fear of being left in a small space that is not her ususal surrounding. She probably could not hear or smell you, or detect that you were present anymore - she perceived that she was alone and 'trapped'. Some dogs will chew up the place, i.e., chew the window sills, etc., and pace untill their owner appears again.

Wildchild - In your first post you wrote everything that I would have wanted to say.

One more thing - animals by instinct conceal their pain for as long as they can. This is because in the wild any sign of pain shows weakness, and therefore good prey for a predator. So by the time we recognize our animals' suffering, they've been in pain for awhile.

My belief is that a week too soon is better than a week too late. By being "too soon" you've avoided your dear pet's needless suffering.

Susan - your dogs are so beautiful - one look into their eyes and I know how you feel. Not telling you what to do, but I'll be thinking about you in the days ahead.

I too just had to do this with my St. Bernard a couple months ago. It is a very hard decision. I can't tell you what to do, but I know in my case I had to really take a good long look at the situation and my heart was telling me "noooo," but my head was telling me "yes it's time."
My dog was in pain even with medication, but as most dogs are she still was excited when I walked into the room and wanted me to just sit and pet her and love her. At first I was thinking "how can I do this to her," but after a night of being with her all night I just knew it was time. It was
just the right thing to do. I felt she was only hanging on because of me, like she needed to be there for me, and I couldn't live with that. I know I loved her and I know that she knew I loved her, so I said my goodbyes. Called the vet in the am and he came to the house later in the day. Was very hard, but now I know I did the right thing.
I am thinking about you and knowing how hard this decision is.

Our 14 y.o. collie is having some bladder incontinence issues, too. I made her 3 "bikinis" to wear that use a small Poise pad inside them to catch dribbles. We've got her on 2 differents med for this and she still dribbles, so she's wearing the bikinis almost 24 hours a day and it's making my life a lot easier. She doesn't mind wearing them, either. We have three so there's never a shortage if some are waiting to be washed. She also pants a lot, but it's heat related- when she's lying on the tile floor in the shower, she doesn't pant at all. Today it's cooler and she's not panting.

I hope you find a solution, Susan, because sleep deprivation is hard on all of us. We're getting up at least twice a night, but it was 4-5 times a night before we put the diaper on her. I think she feels better when she's got it on. I KNOW I do!

Do you sew? I could photograph this and send you dimensions, etc, so you could make your own. Good luck!

Thanks, Flamey. I do sew, but I had rejected the diaper idea because I read the hair in that area has to be shaved or clipped, and the area must be washed frequently. Angel has very long hair (see photo), and grooming is always a struggle because she hates it. She doesn't object to her back being brushed/combed/raked, but anything else--watch out!

But your collie must have long hair, too. How do you deal with it?

Sweet, sweet baby. Saying prayers that you get an answer soon. From what I read, the end may be near. JMHO. (((Alisande)))

Many, many Blessings,
Haley

Susan, I keep the hair in the area trimmed some, and I give her time to groom herself outside when it's nice out. We haven't had any problems. Just had a urinalysis done to be on the safe side and all was well.

Angel is a lovely dog, I don't think I've seen one that looks like her. I admire your dedication to her and her needs, sweetie. I know how hard it is, what you're going thru with them.

Let me know about the diaper pattern- she looks about the same size at Paisley.

One of the most difficult decisions for a pet owner/lover is when to say goodbye. It's a responsibilty we have though as responsible pet owners. It's heartbreaking and difficult and easy to second guess. Just listen to what your heart and mind tell you. I'm sure you'll do the right thing. There is no exact "right" time.

It's interesting how, when many/most animals know their time has come they go off to be by themselves. I've seen the reaction in multi-pet homes and it's really interesting. When one is sick, often the other comes and checks on them, even if they didn't get along otherwise. I've seen my two check on each other when they weren't 100% and leave them alone but still check. However when the time came, the ill one will go find a hiding spot to be alone and peaceful. The other then stays away until they've passed.

It's interesting how humans feel a need to drag the world around someone who is dying. Someone in a bed, probably nervous, in pain, possibly scared but we have to have the world watch them in their discomfort and embarrassment and indignity. Some may want it, some wouldn't. But the differences are rather striking. I sense a big part of it is we humans as survivors have to make ourselves feel good that we were there when they died. Maybe we need to take a lesson from animals.

The bathroom incident I would agree is anxiety and in this case a separation anxiety. It's not unusual for animals to experience anxiety of many forms more as they get older. Often that can be the root of their trouble with bladder control. They get excited and wet. Often our pets are used to getting what they want, right? We often spoil them. As they age, there's certainly memory loss and they don't really understand the concept of "time". They don't eat because it's a certain time, they eat when there's food available and/or when they're hungry or bored. They often have a routine that after eating they'll get some water. Normally when they feel the urge to go out they'll let you know but as they age, they have trouble telling what it is. Some say they can't feel it. I tend to wonder if it's just they don't remember what that feeling means. Either way the result is the same.

Clearly you are aware of the situation. I know you'll make the right decision. I've seen a few people who just couldn't part with their long-time friends and put them through too much. I think that's selfish and hope I don't do that should my critters need me to make the ultimate decision for them.

Don't forget the happy times with your companion. Best wishes to you all.

I read your link and from your post above. Neither dog seems to be in pain or ready to be put down to me. What I read is that the dogs are lonely. Is anyone with them all day long? You said you get home from work at 10pm, then settle down and go to bed. It seems as though the dogs might be lonely and depressed? They dont seem to be getting any time with you at all.

They dont seem to be getting any time with you at all.

Actually, Linda, I spend a lot of time with them. I don't leave for work until 3:00 p.m., and because I don't like to do much running around on workdays, I'm usually home from the time I get up until I leave. And I don't go right to bed when I get home from work (much as I'd like to some days). My usual bedtime is somewhere between 12:30 and 1:00 a.m.--and no matter what time I get to bed, Angel always gets me up around 7:00. I never quite get enough sleep.

For a while there, Wolfy seemed lonely and depressed, but he seems better now.

All the posts above have given me a lot to think about. I've had many animals over many years, and using the criteria we always used, Angel and Wolfy haven't seemed ready to go. The decision to put a dog down has always been made when one or more of the following was involved: inability to walk, terminal illness, debilitating or painful chronic condition--an obviously sick dog or cat. Angel, for instance, with her enthusiasm for her dinner and eager anticipation of walks, does not fall into those categories. Still, some important questions and issues were raised in this thread, and I am going to carefully consider them.

Thanks again for sharing.

Susan