I think maybe you know how you want to layout the space and are shy of posting a layout (or of doing the amount of cursing it would take to get punch to produce one).

If you want an island, this is one orientation for it. Its certainly "more" of everything. A bit better access to water, but not enough for goodness. No seating, but great prep views. Least changes to the exterior.
{{gwi:1988190}}
In some respects, this is better and worse. i think its more storage. Access to water is great. 30" deep counters on ref wall and water wall. Access to counter space, not so much. Premier prep is beside sink, with stuff either going directly in the oven or pushed down to cooktop. Either side of cooktop can be used, but its not as pleasant. Person two making a salad while person one is cooking is fine. Person three making a salad while person two is cleaning while person one is cooking is pushing it. I think that maybe, given the layout of the house and the normal traffic flow, this type of orientation is better.
{{gwi:1988191}}

Wow that was fast.

Not worried about changes to the exterior. The house has to be resided anyway and not that bid of a deal. So I am willing to explore all options to get the best functionality/layout.

Yes I have some pre-conceived ideas that I have seen elsewhere but I figure I would put up a blank slate and see what sticks. I did try playing with cabinets, etc in Punch and yes I would like to punch my fist through the screen. I'll keep trying.

If no island, what about a peninsula? I am also not stuck to the openings between rooms on the bearing wall, these can be moved as well. Just need to make sure that I can fit a table and have the walk space around.

You don't say where you live....I mention this because of the need/desire for natural light vs. your particular weather pattern. Placement of doors and windows can have a psychological effect as well as heating/cooling issues. There was once a big discussion about whether people want their sink underneath a window. Just thought I would throw this into the mix :)

New Jersey

I would definitely take down part of all of the wall between the kitchen and dining room. That could become very cool island space. Obviously check to see if it's load bearing -- may need columns if it is. I think you're wise to stick with existing footprint -- will save tons and you have ample space. and, if you haven't thought of it -- try heat under the floor -- can be radiant or electric. Here's a link to a good kitchen redesign story where they opened up the floor plan. Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: kitchen redesign

Just to change it up a bit, I reversed current kitchen and dining locations. Allows for U-shaped kitchen, with pantry/desk/hutch on opposite wall. Added patio doors near dining table.

Repositioning opening in bearing wall gives more living room wall space near fireplace, which helps with furniture arrangement. I'd also widen entry foyer, and maybe do some add'l built-ins in the living room, across from future fireplace.

I had paid an architect for concepts years ago and this was one of the ideas. I can't remember where I put those papers. The benefit I see here is by flipping and doing the U, you eliminate having to deal with doorways and what cabinet or appliance opens up and blocks the area by the steps. I have that issue now with the current pantry. One minus was if this was reversed, like current, and the kitchen/dining table was in its current location, you always could extend it into the LR when you had company. But like others have said, you can't have it all.

So the pocket door would be used for access from the steps leading up from the garage to the pantry in the dining area? I would think that you would leave this open except during the times of entertaining, where you may want to close it off. Is that the thought? Kinda funny since there already is a pocket door here. although it slides into the side away from the steps. There currently is light switches on the wall at the top of the steps leading downstairs.

What are the pro's/Cons of moving the hall closet to the other side, instead of moving the actual wall? I have see this in a friend's of ours with the same house. Benefit here is that you wouldn't need to widen the front steps. Currently the front steps run from the back wall of the closet to the wall separating the hall from the LR. If I didn't then widen the steps I couldn't put in a bigger door or one w/ sidelights.

A negative w/ this layout is more plumbing involved since the current wet wall is where the "hutch location is located. Not a deal breaker. But on the plus side, I can do all of the demo and rough in work in the new kitchen location, and it will not impact the old. Thus I can have a working kitchen longer.

You had mentioned built-ins on the wall opposite the fireplace. I was originally thinking of doing this flanking the fireplace. Thoughts?

mjlb,

See my previous post but this is what I mean.

Not sure if I need a desk or not. Pretty much would then just use the table there with a laptop. But would want a place to pus (probably hide) the cell phones, Bluetooth headsets, etc as well as a bulletin board for the kids notes birthday invitations etc. Probably inside of a cabinet to hide it away. Could also put the beverage ctr, where the desk was notated on your plan and put some type of thing for a message ctr where I noted the beverage ctr.

ENTRY FOYER - Would look better if it were a foot or so wider, but it is a bit crazy to move walls to gain a foot or so. Moving the closet has potential, but if a standard closet, it will take about 2ft - 5in (2ft inside plus wall), so it does eat into your living room. You might want to lay out furniture arrangement in living room to make sure it would not be a problem.

LIVING ROOM - Built-ins flanking fireplace sounded great, and you might use one side to house a TV. For more flexibility in TV placement, I thought having built-ins on the opposite side of room might help. Also, wondered if your fireplace will be wider than you've drawn it.

If you do a furniture layout, you may find wasted space between the two wide entrances to the room -- I'm not sure how to resolve that. But I do like the long diagonal view between living and dining areas.

KITCHEN - That's cool about the pocket door (to block view of narrow entry foyer). To have a landing spot next to frig, I should have flipped the frig and double ovens, so that double ovens are closest to dining. Or, since you wanted a second sink, the double ovens could move across from frig on window wall, and a 2nd sink could go on frig side of U. Or, you could add a wet bar and sink on the pantry wall since not much space is needed for desk.

DINING - You could rotate table 90 degrees, and seat another 2 people, maybe 4, for holidays.

Can you put windows in the side walls?

mjlb,

ENTRY FOYER: Since our friends have done it in their house it makes a huge difference. Opens up the whole front foyer/hall. They also went up as well so they have a double story entry way as well. Our furniture is very very old and destroyed. Thus when we remodel there will be all new furniture. So I cannot say for sure what will and won't work but I guess the room could be laid out with what could work and then I have to buy furniture that matches that. Of course in their house this room is a living room and is seldomly used. They also have an addition on the back with a family room. In our case this Living Room is our family room. Right now we use probably less than 2/3 of it. The TV is on the wall between the openings of the kitchen and DR. We have a sectional couch under the window facing the TV/Unit. So there is a lot of dead space. The wall that the fireplace is on is currently mirrored so it makes the room appear larger as well. I can post pics of the current layout if needed. We are also going to replace the front window with either a bow, bay or box. Not sure which but I tend to lean to a bow, due to the size.

LIVING ROOM: The plan is to mount a flat screen TV above the fireplace. I have my own home theater business so this isn't an issue. I made the fireplace 48" wide. The fireplace itself is 32" wide and 16.25" deep. So wasn't sure how much wider it needed to be with tiling and a mantle. There is another brand as well that is also 16.25" deep and starts at 36"W. The Fireplace store recommended this Spacesaver unit due to the small SQ Ft of the 1st floor. Also the depth is shallow not to take up to much space from the room. I was told that if I went larger then it will be too hot for the room. The studs run parallel to this wall so I can't cantilever out. I would have to build a foundation for the fireplace and then possibly a chase. As far as furniture layout goes, this is beyond my own capacity. Forget my DH. Once given direction, I can choose look/style and will pick those out but where to start or laying out is not my forte.

KITCHEN: I am confused about the comment about the pocket door. You suggested it in the plan. I figured that was why you put a pocket door there (If one ever wanted to close off the room from the foyer). If not then what was the intention of the pocket door? If memory serves me correct, I though you want the fridge closest to where people would need to go in and get drinks/snacks without having to go through the kitchen and get in another way. I also understand the need for landing space. which is the better of the two options.

Only other question I have is the location of the sink to the proximity of the cooktop. Its hard to tell visually but will this be crowded if I am cooking on the cooktop and DH is prepping in the sink at the same time?

Any other thoughts?

bmorepanic,

Which side walls? The only side wall that is an outside wall is the one where I said is a possible fireplace location. THis is an outside wall along the whole side encompassing both the LR & DR.

KITCHEN - In agreement on pocket door. I think you'd prefer landing space next to frig, over having the frig on end of run. If DH works to right of sink, shouldn't be a problem. There's 5-ft of countertop. (This assumes you don't go w/ alternate ideas that include a 2nd sink.)

FOYER - It is nice when first impression upon opening front door is a good one. If it's in the budget, I'd go for it. If it doesn't make the budget cut, at least moving kitchen opening down toward front door may make the foyer seem less closed up.

LIVING ROOM - Sounds like you're going with a prefab type fireplace. I think you could size the working part of fireplace appropriately for your room size, while sizing the mantel area to whatever suits your taste.

But does lading space side depend on which way the fridge opens? If there was a single door I would think that you would want it to open away from the kitchen area, thus you would want the counter on the right side. I currently have counter on the left side but use the kitchen table that is directly in front of the fridge anyway. I won't have that in this kitchen though.

Last night I dug up those sketches I was given. Here are links to options I was given.

Well, the architect sketches certainly answer bmorepanic's question -- apparently you can add windows to side wall. The kitchens in Plan A and C seem workable, but IMO, not so much in Plan B and D. In Plan B, there wouldn't be adequate passage behind the seating at the island, and in Plan D, the peninsula would cause a traffic jam around the refrig.

Foyers in Plan C and D look good to me. Plan C angled built-ins were no doubt pre-flat screen TV era, so now unnecessary. With the furniture drawn in, you can see how the additional wall length next to fireplace helps with arranging furniture.

On other thing: In Plan A and B, the range is in the center of the room. That's probably a more complicated option, especially when you have a floor above.

Yeah these were created about 8 years ago.

There is nothing above but the attic. One day maybe a master BR suite :).
Regardless I don't like the idea of a range in the middle because you then have an exposed exhaust hood that blocks views.

While plan A gives more windows and light, due to the placement if the sink, you then have to walk through the whole kitchen just to get to the sink so wouldn't thy be impractical?

Re: plan A, what if you put the clean up sink on the island, closer to the table side) and the range on the back wall, off center so the 2 spaces don't conflict. Need to make sure there is a good path to the frig without people walking thru the cooking and clean up areas. Maybe swap the frig and ovens?

what is it that you don't like about the foyer on plans A&B. C&D seem the same, except one has a half wall and columns or is it just the space in the foyer that you are talking about.

I am open to any other options, like a variation of the original plan A However, I am trying to maximize usability and storage space as well. Everything is crammed in the space that we have now, including the really deep pantry cabinet. Want to be able to space things out so I can actually find stuff in the new kitchen :). We also have one hutch unit w/ shelves in the dining room that has all of the "good china & silverware". There is also a small unit that houses the wedding glassware and liquor & bar stuff. I could post pics if needed. About 6 months ago I did go through alot and threw all kinds of stuff away. I will be doing it again when we actually do the kitchen. But I know I need more space so this needs to be taken into account as well. I already store alot of bulk items in the garage and laundry room already. There really aren't storage places in this house. Not sure if I went the Island route, like Plan A, if you end up loosing or gaining more storage vs the U plan.

On the U plan I could make the opening to the Kitchen from the LR smaller to then add a landing space as well next to the fridge. OR Would moving the fridge to the opposite wall make this better or make it worse for cleanup?

I think maybe you need to decide if the island plan will give you the storage that you are looking for. What I don't like about option C is that the entire kitchen/dining area is very closed off to the living area. When you're in that space, you will have little contact with people in the living room. Will that bother you?

What about in the island plan if you put the refrigerator next to the door to the back and put the cooktop on the wall where the ovens are. This way, the frig has easy access to the table and also to people in the living room. Are you set on separate wall ovens?

Yes I need to figure out which would be better. However, under Plan A not sure the width of the island or if an island would even fit here at all. The counter is 2' + 6' for the 2 isles = 8'. If the island is 3' wide then that leaves only 6" deep for the "tall cabinets". So the island would need to be somewhere around 2-2.5' deep. Which is pretty narrow no?

I do see what you are saying about being cut off. HHHMMMM.

Is it much different though then what I currently have? Kitchen now is cut of from the LR in a way. I would figure any U shaped layout has to cut you off from other areas of the house since that is a nature of a U no?

You'd have to eliminate the tall cabinets and there wouldn't be any room for island seating.

Do you mind being cut off? You would always do a pass-thru/opening into the LR from the kitchen so you wouldn't be cut off with the U shape. Not sure if that appeals to you.

malhgold

Well I did a test, I closed the pocket door in my existing kitchen to the hallway and felt enclosed. Of course I still have the wall separating the kitchen & dining so it makes for a more enclosed environment. Now I have to re-think this. I'll have to test this a little more.

Seems even if I drop the tall cabinets that I still will be shoehorning an island in there and not one as wide as I would like. if I loose those cabinets I think I come up short on the storage.

Any other thoughts?

Some questions first . . .

Which way is north?
Does the back yard behind the kitchen and DR have equally good views?
How much do you use the back door to go to the back yard? For grilling and eating out there? other?
Does it matter to you if the back door remains in its present location, or if it's moved to the DR (I moved it in my suggestions below)?
What would the views be if you added windows to the LR and DR wall that presently has none? Is there a house there? How far away? Any trees there?

And now some thoughts.

I like your plan B the best, with some changes. The entry (one side lite fits nicely, and having the door open towards the LR seems better than opening towards the stairs, although it's too bad it blocks the closet when the door is open) and LR are much improved spaces, and I like the traffic flow without the dead end LR and kitchen.

If you do put in a fire place, it's more energy efficient to have it on an inside wall, so where you have your TV cabinets would be fine. However, the heat would go right up the stairs and the bedrooms might get too warm. Since they already told you to choose a small unit or you'd overheat the house, maybe it would be better to skip the FP and put the money elsewhere.

I'd use a couple of ideas from your plan A. Shifting the LR/DR opening (and keeping it wide so you can extend the table when necessary) and DR table over a little would let you put cabinets and shelves along the outside wall for more storage (projects, or put in a bar sink, etc.). How to do the windows will depend on which way is north and what the view is there. Is your existing table 3' wide and going to stay? If you're buying a new one, 40-42" wide would be better if you put a lot of serving dishes on the table.

For the kitchen, I'd use the long L in plan B with several changes. Starting just inside the kitchen to the left of the stairs and going counter-clockwise, I'd build a cleaning/bulk storage closet with standard 2x4 walls 2-3' wide and put 12" deep shelves in it. Left of that would be the ovens. Left of those would be cabinet/counter top and then the cooktop. I'd put a super susan in the corner.

Down the outside wall, I'd put a small cabinet, then the sink with a triple window over it, then the DW. I like having the MW between the fridge and sink, since there usually seem to be messes on the counter by it that need to be cleaned often. It's also nice to have it so people using it are not in your main prep area between the sink and the cooktop. So there would be more cabinets with the MW in the upper cabs, and then the fridge at the end before the DR.

On the wall that backs up to the LR, I'd put 9-12" deep tall cabinets about 8' wide. Continuing this about 3' wide along the wall that backs up to the entry would be a mail sorting/charging/message cabinet set up. I'd keep the pocket door.

With an 11'6" wide kitchen, you'd still have enough room for a 2' x 6-8'(?) island where you have it in plan B. I'd start it about where you did on the one end, but shorten it so it doesn't block the fridge traffic at the other end. It's nice to have a place just to put things when working somewhere along the L, it's a great place to set out appetizers for company, directs traffic out of your cooking area, doesn't block anything you'd need to get at, and it provides more storage. I'd put open shelving at each end, with one end for cookbooks. This all assumes that you'd rather have the tall storage cabinets on the wall and a non-applianced, non-sit down island.

Hope you can follow all of this and that it helps, since I can't do a drawing! Since storage seemed to be very important (I used to live in a similar lack of storage situation), this would get you a lot of it.

Anne

Nice simple math for you. 11'6" is 138" in width.

Normal depth counters are 25" to 26" depending a bit on exactly how the cabinets are made and how uneven your walls are. Typically, counters are 1.5" wider than the cabinet body. Drawings typically show the cabinet bodies only.

A blank wall with seating in front of it needs a minimum of 32" from the edge of the counter to the wall. However, if you want people to be able to sit in anything other than the end stools, or use it (sorta) for circulation, you need 44" from the edge to the wall.

Aisles with cabinets on both sides are "supposed to be" 42" to 48". Aisles are measured from counter edge to counter edge, not wall to wall. When you decide to use less, you need to be careful about the appliances you buy - single door refs can need a larger aisle and using wall ovens can be difficult because you won't be able to stand in front of the open door. Open dishwashers can completely block passage.

An island with no seating has a countertop about 3" to 4" wider than the island cabinetry because of overhangs. The back of the island needs to be finished with "something" - a skin or paneling or wainscoting and the extra side of overhang allows for that.,.

An island with seating at counter height is "supposed to" have a 15" counter overhang on the seating side. Many people use 12" and an occasional person chooses 11" or even 10". At 10", its more a perching space.

A raised bar needs a wall to support it - altho there are metal poles,etc. that can also be used. Bar height seating needs a 12" overhang and you might be able to skinny that down 2". So the total depth of a minimal raised bar is wider than counter height seating. You need 6"-7" for the wall and its coverings PLUS the overhang.

So easy math!
Wall of cabinets = 25-26".
Minimal island = 27-28".
Seating counter height island = 37" to 38"
Seating bar height island = 41" to 42"
Working aisle = 42" to 48"
Minimum aisle behind seating with circulation space = 44".

Width of room(138") - wall of cabinets(min 25") - working aisle(min 42") - Seating/circ space(44") - bar seating island(41") = -14.

jimandanne_mi & all,

They say pictures are worth 1,000 words so I have posted a whole bunch of pics to help answer questions, like what is outside the windows, what are the current views, etc. Also, all of the furniture will be replaced so no need to work that into any plan. Most of this stuff came from my apt 10 years ago. Its mostly modern & we have gone more the other direction. The DR pics also show the other pieces of furniture that will be eliminated but house stuff. If you need any other pics let me know but I tried to capture all of the other rooms. DISCLAIMER: The house is a mess :).

Link to Album - Containing House Pics

To answer some of your other questions:

FIREPLACE: If we were talking woodburning, then I can possibly see an inside wall to keep the flue warm, etc. This will be a direct vent gas fireplace and thus is highly efficient regardless. If I put it in the location you proposed, I would have to vent straight up through the attic and roof. More costs and if I ever decide to tear the roof off and build up (hopefully one day), then the chimney will be difficult to work around. I have also posted a pic of what the view would be if I flanked the fireplace on the outside wall with windows, incorporating maybe window seats on either side. I was thinking of windows because you will see the wall is entirely mirrored now and they create the illusion of a bigger room. Putting windows there would help keep this illusion. It did wonders in my master bedroom (i.e. pic of the rear house and the large triple DH windows on the outside wall - upper left).

TABLE: The architect came up with that on his own. probably to fit what he created. My existing DR table is 42" wide but will not be used in the new kitchen.

DORR TO DECK/WINDOWS: I will be willing to put windows/doors wherever they will work best.

BMOREPANIC: With what you said, regarding space, I am then back to either one of your original suggestions OR reversing of the kitchen (U layout), which then closes you off from the LR. Would have been better if the opening to the LR could be farther down on that plan more towards the FP so then you are more in the middle on the LR and not so secluded. But that can't work because of the fridge/DO & Table. The only other things I have seen other do in my type of house/kitchen was like Plan D, with a peninsula which gives you that extra space and place to place serving dishes, etc but is a bottleneck with fridge or ovens, etc.

On your original plans you elaborated on the second one more of the first. What goodness am I giving up on your plan A vs B? What are the benefits of A vs B? Does it make sense to sort of combine Plan A & B and put the counter run along the outside wall, giving more counter & cabinet space and having the island w/ nothing on the wall between the kitchen/ LR? Then any traffic that enters the room, from the hall goes down that side of the island and stays away entirely from the cooking area to get to the table. In plan A you had to walk through and then around the island to get to the table. Maybe put the fridge on the end of the run closest to the table.

Well I am supposed to be working today but again getting nothing done ;).

don't really have an opinion right now, but wondering where in NJ you live. I am in Morristown....

No Opinion! :).

Livingston

I stopped reading all the kitchen posts (just too overwhelming), but I did look at your photo album. The thing that most jumps out is the opportunity to raise the roof on your kitchen/dining/living area. The additional volume would increase the feeling of spaciousness inside, and much improve the exterior. Of course, raising the roof is not for the faint of heart. Nor are all the door and window changes that have been discussed. I empathize with your impulse to achieve the best outcome without placing restrictions at the outset, but you may have gone way beyond what makes economic sense.

I'd be concerned about over-improving one area of your home, only to make other areas look worse by comparison. For example, a kitchen with Wolf / SubZerow / Bosch appliances, but a living room with a view of a not very nice looking stairway. Even tho' you may plan to improve your house one room at a time, you never know when you might need to sell it. And it's just a more livable house when rooms are not so at odds with one another.

I was thinking about kids and dogs and didn't realize that you would be amenable to moving the door way to the living room. The problem with any island kitchen, given your house, is the aisles can't have both seating and kids or dogs. Or old people.

I want to say that mjlb's red plan makes sense. I don't normally think of "u"s because of a really bad apartment kitchen.

The L I drew and and the "U" share a common problem - the aisles are too far!

The "other kitchen" is a combo of the 11'6" wall in the existing kitchen (without windows) and a double sided peninsula about 8' long .

Where's that cocktail shaker gone? I seem bereft of tactical thoughts right now and I might as well enjoy it.

First I want to say to all, thank you for the assistance. I know I write alot and have probably made this thread overwhelming. Just want to make sure I make the right choices and come up with a plan that works.

I also understand being overwhelmed reading the kitchen posts because they have now consumed my life again. As far as the concern about over improving one area of the house compared to others, I have that now. I remodeled all of the bedrooms myself one by one as well as the hallway kids/guest bath. These rooms look great and make the level in discussion look blah. Do worry, the hallway railing will not be staying either ;). This is a whole package deal. Maybe I'll post pics of the other rooms later, when I get home from work, so you can have a whole picture and see where I am going. I am also not married yet to specific appliances. I got recommendations from people & family, who were very happy.

The original plan was to bump back at least enough to have the center island I always wanted. We also wanted to go up as well, I even contemplated raising the first floor to 9' ceilings in the process to make the space on this level feel larger. While the economy hasn't affected us, we have come to conclusion that you never know. So instead of taking our savings and dumping it all into another level, blowing out the back, etc. We thought why not do the max that we can with the existing structure at this time and remodel the existing structure. Now I have thought about raising the roof and know that it would make the space feel bigger. This can be done with vaulted ceilings without having to create a new roof. But, then I restrict myself in ever expanding upwards over this level in the future. If I did choose to go up, I would have to fix or re-do all of the rooms we are now discussing. I have learned that I need to have a "master plan" in mind when doing work so that I don't have to do re-do rooms if I want to expand in the future. For example, when I re-did the upstairs hall bath I ran a waste pipe up the wall that could serve for the second floor bathroom. If I didn't do it then I would be facing the possibility of having to demo part of this bathroom to do it later.

If it turns out that going back the 4-6' would seriously solve problems with a great layout that will be functional and bridge the rooms together, then maybe we would re-explore that again.

bmorepanic,

As far as an island in the existing footprint I wasn't talking about a seating one. I figured just one for prep/staging/working, etc. I know its ideal if you can turn and have a work surface behind you. This is the one drawback with the U or counters around the perimeter, in that you have like 7' of space between counters.

I had one other thought but not sure what impact it would have on resale or if its wise. What if the whole first floor was kind of an open plan. Not sure how that would look or if its a wise option.

Where to go from here?

First, please read the post above that containes responses to previous questions.

Second, after posting I had a discussion with my BH revisiting the possibly of bumping out to get an ideal/workable kitchen. My friend is a great contractor and he gave us some preliminary estimates in the past regarding the costs and I am meeting up with him again probably on Fri to discuss this topic again. I know a kitchen is something you want to do right the first time so maybe its work spending a little extra $$$ to get a great space to entertain.

So....if I did bump out, how much is enough for an ideal layout, but not to much where this room seems out of place proportunatly with the existing LR? maybe it makes sense to re-arrainge the LR function. etc.

I think if you did do a bump out, you'd only need to go out another couple of feet. A 13' wide kitchen will support cabs on both sides plus an island.

Santa brought me some fun software, so I've been playing with it. This layout doesn't take into account any bumping out of existing exterior walls. Feel free to ignore the layout try as I just wanted to get a feel for the software.

I flipflopped the kitchen and DR as in some of the previous layouts and put in a window wall as well as outswing french doors to the backyard in the DR.

and a camera view

I couldn't figure how to put crown up.

Width of room(138") - wall of cabinets(min 25") - working aisle(min 42") - aisle(36") - island(39") = -4.

You can do a version of this with 30" deep cabinets (33" deep countertop) and a 41" working aisle. Or use 24" cabs with a half wall behind to net the 30" depth.

I am a real sucker for corner ovens. I never realized that you needed substantial fillers on both sides for the other cabinets' doors to open properly.