Bmore--I really do appreciate your help with this. The kitchen IS drawn long and narrow, but I'm fine with that. The cleanup zone has its own space, and the working triangle has its own space. I DO have a problem with the long and narrow family room. That's the reason we haven't gone ahead with this plan. I've worked on this for a few hours today during baby's nap and after kids' bedtime. It's late and I'm very tired, but I think I may have drawn a kitchen in that space that would take up less family room space. I'll have DH scan at work tomorrow so I can post.

As to window coverings in the kitchen space if moved by the front door, I wouldn't want to feel like I need the shades drawn and am hiding out in my new, expensive kitchen. That wouldn't make me comfortable. I'm a SAHM who spends hours in the kitchen cooking, cleaning, and doing projects with DS. I love to cook. I want it to FEEL right, not just have checked all the appliance and space boxes on my "kitchen want list." Again, I know it makes sense to draw it there, but it doesn't feel right when you're in the space.

As I said, it's late and I'm tired. I hope that is the reason I'm sensing a bit of hostility in your reply, and not that you meant it that way. I value your input. I will probably post at least another whole house drawing, if not more, and a detailed cab plan down the road. I hope that I can have your discerning and honest eye on those as well.

I think I may be a bit sensitive now as I feel frustrated and stuck again with this planning after a week or so of feeling like we were making progress with Plan B. Here's what the house looks like inside now. We’re living in a temporary house. Decisions need to be made sooner or later.

Breezy- So there's the little bench man! He's a cutie :)

Don't be depressed. I think you've made great progress with this second plan. It really gives you great space in the kitchen and room for everything else, too.

In your other post, we talked about putting the kitchen in the front and I thought you made a lot of sense, not wanting to give up your big window...and wanting the kitchen/family room in the back, overlooking the garden. Lately, I've really gotten interested in gardening, so I totally understand why you'd want that view for most of your day.

I also think separate seating areas for living and family rooms make a lot of sense. I wouldn't want all my seating in one area either, which is why I'm trying to fit at least a small seating area in my "dream kitchen" :)

My only concern with this latest (and very nice) plan, was having enough room for "the bench seating" since that is going to be a popular place with everyone. Also, it might be more fun, if the kids are facing you, rather than having their backs to you...although it is a good space to watch TV!

I've seen a few remodeling shows on HGTV, where the whole house is done, it's beautiful, and none of the furniture they want will fit in the space. So now, I always draw in my furniture, to make sure it will fit. It has to be a beautiful space, but still functional.

Your living room and dining room are a wonderful size. The family room should be fine, my only concern was the bench...which I think you should keep...maybe just in a slightly different spot. Again, just a suggestion :)

Oh, and sorry again, about the white out. The cooktop should be moved over a bit, if the pantry will still fit in the corner, but my brush fell off the applicator...let's just say I was having a "white-out challenged" day! LOL

I'm back just to echo Lavender lass - do not get depressed! We all have what we think are great ideas but we come with our own baggage - our own ideas on what makes a kitchen function, what we want to look at, how our families operate and how we entertain. It's hard doing this with little kids which is why I lived with my tiny ill-funtioning kitchen for as long as I did! My kids are now in their early 20's and it was still hard to schedule this - we moved out of the house but had to make sure it wasn't during finals, it couldn't be during mid-terms or when term papers were due because we couldn't be without wireless connection for laptaps etc etc.
Funny story - during part of the renos when we were out of the house #2 son was in Japan teaching skiing and had to have his appendix out unexpectedly. Well, we forgot to give him our temporary phone number so he couldn't let us know. We eventually found out but he was a little choked.

People thought we should have moved our kitchen to the back of the house for the view but only we knew that for our way of doing things that it wouldn't work. With a little re- configuration (it often comes down to playing with those inches) we moved it a little to expose more of it and added more windows (gotta love those change orders).
Anyway all this just to let you know that in the end it is your house and your family. We all have what we think are great ideas and sometimes they send you off in a different direction, sometimes they reaffirm that what you are doing is right, and sometimes they need to be discarded because they won't work for you.
Try to remember what you liked and didn't like about your old space and what you wanted to gain by doing a whole-space reno and that's where you begin. Walk through your space in your mind, imagine the differences where you are now and where you want to be, get out a bunch of graph paper, draw out your space and start to doodle. It will come, it's exhausting and stressful but your heading in a good direction.
That's my soap box, cheer you up, pump you up supportive speech for the day.

I just noticed last night that Bmore moved the fireplace...And now I notice that in Plan A it's in a different place than Plan B. I was assuming it was existing and had to stay put...Did I miss some conversation about that? Is it new and can go anywhere?

On your plan it's only 2 ft deep...Is that accurate?

Is not hostility. I try not to push back at people because it is so often perceived that way. What I'm trying to say is I don't think it works, I believe that "a lot". I don't know that I can be of any assistance because of that.

Something about my head is stuck at seeing what I'm seeing when I look at that plan and I can't get by it. Because I felt like I needed to say something, I did. It makes me so uncomfortable, that I used short declarative sentenances.

I really was just wishing you well with your plan. There are a ton of possibilities for every problem and don't give up.

Rhome- Up at the top, Breezy mentions that it's a see-through fireplace and can be adjusted, if necessary...but it's a long post :)

Bmore- I know, sometimes we try to make an important point and people can take it the wrong way. I think that happened to me, on a post not too long ago, when I was concerned about prep space. Again, that's a shortcoming in my kitchen, so it's what I look for in other kitchens.

Breezy- I think you have a great plan. I really like the mudroom wall and your living room is a great size. Play around with your furniture layout in the family room. If it works, then you're set. If not, make a few adjustments...better to do it now, when it's not costing you any money!

Lavender--I have tried sketching my furniture on the plan. It doesn't fit. I tried sketching other sizes of furniture in case we need to buy different furniture to make it fit. Nothing seems to work right. I was inspired by your idea to move the bench so I took out my older sketches with the bench in other areas and brainstormed over those. Thanks for your ideas. Sorry I'm using up all your white-out! ;)

I spent some time yesterday and last night trying other kitchen configurations. One seems to be better than the rest, but now I'm not so sure as I look at it in the light of day. I was going to have DH scan it at work so I could post, but he's home sick today.

Rhome--the fireplace can go anywhere. We tore out the old wood burning fireplace stack (where you see the big hole in the floor in the above photo) because it took up SIX feet from front to back. The fireplace itself is 2' deep. We will mount it up off of the floor about 18-24" maybe? I was thinking we could put a tiled hearth on it for sitting on one side or the other if it made sense. We had one side of the old fireplace like this and it added additional seating.

Byronroad--thanks for the pep talk. This process has been very frustrating at times. I began my graph paper sketching in January, and have posted layouts multiple times. I feel like moving the kitchen and family room to the back of the house is right, but I need to make that family room work. This all started with wanting more kitchen storage, more counter space, a separation of prep and cleanup zones, two ovens and a gas cooktop to replace our old electric range. We had hoped to go to the house yesterday and mock up the Plan B kitchen and family room with boxes, saw horses, etc., but we couldn't do it with DH sick.

The other issue that's tripping me up is the cabinet maker. We have a quote for Diamond cabs and one from a custom guy. The custom guy's work is better and doesn't cost much more. He had his December schedule open up and can work us in now. If we wait, it might be mid-Feb/March before he can build our cabs. We had hoped to decide this weekend. THAT is making this more stressful for me. I decided at 2:15a.m. this morning before finally falling to sleep that I will let the cab maker know that we are not ready to make a decision and will have to wait. Hopefully he is available when we're ready. This will take some of the pressure off me.

Between your and Lavender's pep talks and making this decision, I feel somewhat better today. Thanks for the encouragement!

Ok...I played with Plan B, and made adjustments to a lot of things...island depth, fridge and oven locations, window and door locations...But I tried to do it the best I could make it as if it were mine. (I made the buffet/baking counter deeper to make up for the narrowed section of the island. This gives you 3 great prep spots.) The new family room is tight, but the living room is tighter. But you make that space work right now as your family room? If it works now, it could work and the family room could work later? Don't know, just something for you to think about. They look difficult, though. I don't mind one cozy space. Our living room is only about 11 1/2 by 9 1/2. But where it seems you need a bump out is in front of the living room...

The living room is 12' x 16' which is pretty good sized. I think a big sofa in front of the 8' window, with a couple of chairs or loveseat against the wall to the garage...with more seating in front of the fire.

I really like Breezy's idea of a raised hearth on that side, or the little ottomans, which give you extra seating and great storage for kids' stuff (it always ends up in every room) LOL

As for the family room, it's a little tight with the stools out, but there's plenty of room...except for the bench on the island. It's a very cute feature, but it cuts into the floor space. I think a separate seating/eating area for the kids is a great idea...and worth the floor space. Whether it's worth a little of the kitchen space, only Breezy can decide.

Whatever Breezy decides to do, it has to be right for her situation, her family, and the way they use their home. I'm sure we all agree on that :)

P.S. Breezy- We Washington gals have to stick together...you're worth the white out! LOL

That makes 3 of us Washingtonians, and I hope you didn't think I was saying I thought this plan wouldn't work. I wouldn't have gone to that much detail in the drawing if I thought that. I really think that if the family room works now, where the new living room is shown, the rooms might work fine for you...As I said, we currently have a smaller living room than that for many more people, and no family room. Some would think it's crazy, and we sometimes wish we had our future family room now, but we survive. But, I sure didn't want to talk you into something you won't like, so was trying to point out any possible weak spots to err on the side of putting in lots of thought.

breezy girl - just a vote for having a family room and a living room. We have both in our old home and I really like it. The LR is for me in the mornings (coffee) and evenings (hot tea or wine depending upon how the day has gone...) There are never toys in there - it is really peaceful. I like having family space and quiet space -- I think our house lives a little larger because of it. Hang in there! I know this whole process is crazy-making (we moved our kitchen and FR this summer) but stay strong - it is worth it. Promise. :-)

Ack! I'm having trouble communicating today and am not sure I'm saying what I mean. By saying 'we don't have a small living room and no family room, but survive fine,' I wasn't saying I was against keeping both separate spaces, as I see a lot of value to having both the living room and family room. I was only referring to the smallish size of our living room, and I actually designed it small in anticipation of the other room.

Bmore--I appreciate you coming back to respond. I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for your honesty. I wanted people to look at this and give honest feedback, even if it's the dumbest thing they've ever seen!

Rhome--I understood what you meant and knew you only have ONE family/living room for your big family. You have spent a lot of time working on my plan to come up with your drawing. I want to study it a bit more, but I'm unclear on a couple of things.

1. Ovens? Are they on the end of the peninsula? I assume they are in a floor/ceiling cab?

2. Pantry in the corner next to buffet space?

3. Buffet space at 36" counter height? Is that wider than 24"?

I'm intrigued. With these questions answered, I'll draw it out tomorrow myself to study more. I must be old--I need things on paper in my hands instead of a computer screen. ;) Thank you so much for helping me with this.

Oh, the old family room in that bottom right-hand corner (living room in the drawings here) was bigger. It was 13.5'x 17'. Plenty of space for a huge couch, two big upholstered chairs, a big ottoman, coffee table, toy box, TV cab, and big play area in front of the fire. I think we were spoiled by all that space.

Lavender--I do need to decide if the banquette is worth it. DH wants me to ditch it. Funny thing is that for years he's been saying that he didn't want to get rid of our banquette. Maybe now that it's in the garage his sentimental attachment is gone. I'll try to find a photo of how it looked pre-reno. We all loved eating there.

Laura--Thanks for the support. I grew up with separate living, family, dining, and kitchen rooms. It feels right to me. Being in a big great room at someone else's house makes me edgy somehow. You hit the nail on the head saying your house lives larger. New guests to our house always comment on how big it feels. Must be because they can spread out in the house and not see everyone at one time.

First of all, the new family room is as large as your old one. ;-) Just maybe with a different orientation or arrangement. The living room space is the same size as it was as the family room, less the mud room cabinets that only section off path you couldn't use anyway.

The answers to questions you asked about my plan:
1) Yes, ovens in full-ht cab at the end of the buffet/baking space. Leave the kitchen open to the dining room, but at the same time provide more separation...Mostly just gets you more room on the fridge/cooktop wall, and a separate area for baking projects.
2) Yes, step-in pantry in the corner between baking/buffet space and fridge
3) Yes, buffet space is 36" in height and in depth.

Thanks, rhome, for your answers. I'll draw this out and take a look. I like what you've come up with.

You never fail to amaze me! You said the rooms were about the same size, but thought that couldn't be right. Until I measured them on my graph paper. They are the same size! You're right that the orientation makes that family room seem much smaller. And with that in mind, I felt like having the TV on the only wall in the new family room took up too much space so I tried to get creative with where to put it. That led me to my new layout from Sunday night. DH felt better today, went to work, and scanned my layout. I'll post that next.

I'm going to draw Rhome's plan on my own paper in a minute. Here's what I came up with on Sunday during the wee hours of the night. It may be a little out there though. This utilizes most of the bumpout area we had planned if we reno'd the kitchen in place.

Benefits:
1. Gets the TV off of the only wall in the family room and puts it in a floor-to-ceiling built-in. This frees the FR wall for couch. Seating becomes easier to arrange.

2. TV wall provides a safe area for the cooktop behind it and allows me to use a wall hood instead of island hood.

3. I still get a banquette, but frees up FR space.

CONS:

1. I've only ever seen something like this in a magazine of a high-end home with high-end finishes that made it look gorgeous. Is it too weird IRL?

2. Maybe cuts the kitchen off from the FR too much.

What do you think?

Can you build a new laundry room back by the bedrooms when you build your new master bath and just keep a small powder room? That would help make your living room larger.

Hi Houseful. No room for laundry by the bedrooms. My silly line drawing way up above isn't exact. New master bath already has foundation poured and framing done so we're stuck with it now. Good suggestion though!

I don't see any benefit for your expense. Oh, I just noticed you got the banquette back, so that's one thing.

The room is still the same size. I, truthfully, don't get the problem with having the TV on the wall. This way you can't see it from the kitchen and the people at the island and banquette can't see it either, so it limits the use of what seating you have.

You lose all the storage you had on the wall with the TV.

Your pantry opening is only 2 ft now, and you didn't leave room for wall thickness, so it'd be much smaller IRL.

I will look more about fitting the banquette in.

I really like Rhome's kitchen...but if you want to keep the banquette, I like it better at the end of the kitchen, rather than in the middle of your work space. More windows and you don't have to pay for the bump out.

As for the TV, it works (with more storage) on the wall, but if you don't like to float your furniture, the TV built in with the island could look pretty cool. It will block some light and views, though.

Biggest negative I see, there's no room for an extra chair with your bench seating. This will be a popular area, if you keep it, so I'd want space for a few extra chairs, even if you grab them from the dining area, occasionally.

Rhome- I meant to ask you, where are you in Washington? West side?

Yep. Across Puget Sound from Seattle...You?

Southeast of Spokane, about five miles from Idaho. Right now, it's snowing and we have about a foot of snow already on the ground! That's winter :)

Brrr! My db drives truck and was over in your area last week...on the highway to Ritzville in whiteout/blizzard conditions. We were over here in the mess the highway department claimed to be 'ready' for. Ha! It's back to rain for now, though.

Breezy- I know you said you'd like the TV in the family room, but could you put it in the living room? You could always have a second (smaller) TV in the family room, more for the kids shows. Before you know it, they'll want computers and computer games, etc. Is that going to be in the family room, too?

Just something to think about. (Don't mean to cause you more stress!) It might be another reason to keep that built-in storage on the TV wall. Just in case :)

Honestly, I look at all the suggested layouts and I still like your Plan B from the original post the best, except one thing . . . the banquette. I really think you need to lose it. I've said this on other threads, and I'll say it again, if you are planning aspects of a remodel based on the age your children are now . . . don't do it, because they change so fast. I know it is cozy and you love it now, but your 5 y.o. will be sitting up at the counter on a stool watching and helping you cook by the time this reno is over, and the toddler will be doing the same before you know it. Four stools at one large island just seems so much more practical.

You say this is the "forever" house, but is that cut out in the island something that is going to work for you forever? Just wondering.... It seems to me that it gets in the way of family room furniture placement, and reduces the functionality of your island. You have such a great space to work with, sometimes when we become fixated on one element it can muck up the whole works and that seems to be happening to you.

Rhome- I have a friend in Seattle, who said the new mayor campaigned on being ready for the snow! And then, he wasn't. Good thing you're back to rain.

I just hope this melts, before we get so much snow, we have to shovel off the roof. Two years ago, we lost our hay barn on Christmas morning, from too much snow! Of course, about 20 stores had roof collapses that same year. Now, we try to be more prepared.

Control--Thanks for the advice. We really do want to try to keep the banquette if possible. We had this before we had children and loved it. Everyone who visits loves it. People argue over who gets to sit on the bench. Yes, my son loves it, but so do DH and I. Four stools at the island does seem practical, but it does not foster a family atmosphere to me like sitting across from each other at a table. I want meals with my children to be spent looking into each other's eyes while we talk about our day, our dreams, and our feelings. Sappy, huh? ;) In the end, it may just not work, but I'd like to go down the path of trying to keep it first.

Lavender--Definetly don't want more TVs in the house! DH would NEVER get off the couch and do anything! ;) You get much more snow than we do.

Rhome--I drew up your plan on paper, but I moved the ovens down on the other end of the peninsula next to the pantry. I do a fair amount of cooking from cooktop to ovens and felt they were a little far away on the fireplace end of the peninsula. I sent with DH this morning to scan so I should be able to post shortly. I did have some trouble translating yours above to my measurements, but I'm sure we can work that out. Thank you again for your help with this! I feel fortunate that you've taken enough pity on me to help!

Oh, of course the ovens will work next to the pantry and be better to access and open up the end of that counter like you wanted. I think I was stuck on some previous idea and never thought to move them.

I've been trying to fit the banquette in, but am not sure I like any of these plans much...They are similar to Lavender's but 4 variations. I really understand your desire to keep the banquette and could see it being helpful as the kids grow up, not just now when they're young. But it takes a good portion of the kitchen.

Attempt A:

Attempt B:

Attempt C:

Attempt D:

Here's my interpretation of what Rhome drew. I think my measurements are off somewhere. What did I miss?

Oops. We cross-posted. Thanks for more drawings! You have some creative ideas there that I hadn't thought of. In my doodlings, the corner banquette does take up a lot of space too. Spatially, it takes up less room at the island near the fireplace. It also makes more sense as that area is more of a corridor anyway. Counterspace is really compromised too.

I don't think I like any of them nearly as well as the first one you posted on Monday. Could you please take a look at the one I just posted and see if that is what you were trying to get at? I drew it wrong somewhere. And don't I need a wall behind the pantry and ovesn? That makes the storage behind them on the DR side only 6".

Thank you again!

Rhome- Nice plans! I like the second one, since it gives more separation for the dining room. Can you draw that one, with the bump out. That might give more room for the pantry and a little space between the fridge and ovens.

I remember Breezy wanted her coffee station and some other things in the kitchen, too. Do we have space for these? I think I might need a new list :)

If the island was just a little shorter, there would be more space on the dining room side of the wall, for dish storage and maybe a little more pantry space. I'm pretty sure Breezy doesn't have a basement, so more storage is always nice!

LL, I didn't forget the coffee station. She and I have been working on this awhile and I think I have it all memorized! ;-) I know she wanted a lot of things...but the banquette limits things and only so much is possible. It was my task to draw what I could see and hers to see if all of her 'wants' would fit. The problem with that 2nd one for her that I see is that it requires a full solid wall completely closing off the dining room, which she didn't want, and no buffet area. Shortening the island would reduce its usefulness as a prep area across from the stove, and I feel like it's already borderline in those plans. I wanted to flip the sink and stove to get more island frontage across from the stove, but then it's too far from the fridge. As it is, the kids from the banquette will run through to access the fridge, and that's not good. These plans, unfortunately, have problems, although they add in the nice banquette. Give and take. It always happens.

Breezy, you'll have to give me a hint about where you think you're off with the latest plan you drew. It looks pretty close to mine. I have the sink and dw one foot to the right and you have a foot on the left of the sink I don't. IMO you have the mudroom wall too close to the garage door...The openings should line up and you don't want the cabinet right up against you when you come in.

You are right about the wall needed behind the oven that I left out. It would mean pushing the storage units 3-4" so into the dining room or making some of it up on the kitchen side.

My half-round table for the banquette leaves more room for arranging furniture/fitting the couch in the family room. Also, I'm not sure a bench has to be 24" deep, since a chair isn't.

Rhome- I should have known you had all the details worked out! LOL Looking forward to seeing the elevation sketches, if you do those, this time. I think your curved table at the bench, makes everything fit in the space...and gives more room for chairs.

Breezy- Looks like you're almost there! Have you thought of a little sectional for the TV area? That would give you a little more seating in a smaller space. Maybe a little more space to stretch out, when watching TV...or doze off. Hey, all DHs need a place to 'relax' in front of the TV! :)

Afternoon! Lavender--Rhome is right about that second drawing of her group. I don't want complete separation from the DR, but some would be fine. I also need buffet space because my non-seated party meals are served on many large platters. I always cook too much food. And yes, I did think of a sectional for the TV area. I think this is a case where it is necessary. We would like space for both of us to stretch out/curl up and watch evening movies. Now, DH gets the big couch, and I get the upholstered chair and ottoman. We know we'll probably need to get new furniture in a year or so, especially if our oversized stuff won't fit.

I don't need a "coffee station" per se--just a place for my little espresso machine and its accoutrements to go that's in the vicinity of a water source.

Rhome--I'm not feeling any of those in that group as much as the the one I just posted based off your first drawing. Rather than try to compare my plan with yours, I'll ask how my drawing looks to you. Anything big stand out?

Questions:

1. I shortened the cleanup sink run to move the deck door over, which allows more space for seating in the FR. I still have 2' to the right and 2' to the right plus the corner and overflow area during parties. Is that OK?

2. The bottom left hand kitchen corner. I thought a pantry would be the best use of the corner, but is there something else I could use it for and still have some pantry space? I have overflow pantry shelves in the garage full of food items, party platters, extra dishes, extra glasses, and cake plates. I would like to move as much as possible inside the house, but I don't want to give up too much space in the kitchen.

3. The dining room wall behind ovens and pantry--I don't want to cut into the DR much more. We had the table built 45" wide so my drawing is a bit off. I think we're at the limit of how far I can shrink it already, and I'm not sure about giving up more kitchen space. I had the idea of eliminating the storage on the DR side behind that wall. Could the pantry use the extra foot inside? Maybe too much space to be usable, right? Then maybe I could use the 6" behind the ovens as DR storage space for my placecard holder collection (I know I'm lame, sorry!) and small vases.

4. I never thought of a half-round banquette table! In my mind it was rectangle or round. Brilliant idea! We only need enough room for 4 to fit. That would do it.

5. Bench depth--Our bench in the old kichen was deeper, but it didn't need to be. I've read guidelines online and in Sarah Susanka's books that banquette seating should be 24" deep. DH says that the booth company will build our new one however we want, but I want it to be comfortable.

6. What does advantage does this plan with the ovens on the peninsula have over the plan I initially drew with ovens next to the fridge? A better baking area for sure. Anything else?

Lastly, I need to thank you again for all of your efforts on my behalf! I'm running out of ways to tell you how FABULOUS you are!

1. Cleanup run is OK...Do you have a good spot for dishes? You haven't planned uppers and windows on this plan, so it's hard to tell.

2. Corners aren't much good for anything else. That type of pantry is my favorite use of the corner.

3. You could easily lose the 4" in the aisle on the kitchen side, since the oven opens into the aisle if you want the storage and/or buffet counterspace on the dining side to be 12" deep. You won't lose 6" for the wall...and maybe it could be flat framed...Not sure if the electrical box can go in if flat framed and dh is on the phone, so I can't ask. If you push the oven toward the kitchen 4", it will close up the pantry opening a bit, so you'd have to adjust that...But you have the wall next to the fridge drawn extra thick, so you might not have to adjust it much, if at all.

I don't think adding that foot to the pantry instead of having counter or storage on the dining side would be too much to use in the pantry...It just depends on where you want it more.

4. Half round helps the island flow better, as well as traffic around it...A little stylish, too.

5. If that's what she says...I'm no expert on banquette benches. I suppose you have to allow for some slant.

6. in the initial plan you couldn't get into your pantry. Once it's made so you can get into it, the ovens obviously take from the counterspace between the fridge and stove. The stove is pushed over so that it isn't behind the island and that seems wrong to me.

Thanks Rhome. I'm liking this plan more and more as the day goes on.

1. Hadn't planned uppers yet and the window size could change. I had it at 5' centered above the sink. Losing 12" from DW side would only leave a 12" upper above if I don't shorten down that window. I need to think about that one. I thought I'd put dishes above the DW, but I may not have room. Plus, that's a long way to go to get dishes for the table. Any suggestions?

2. Good on the corner pantry. This plan also means I have to get the hated lazy susan! Yikes!

3. I drew in 6" walls just because the it would be harder to draw 4" on the scale I'm using here. I'm drawing that corner area with an enlarged scale to take a look. You're right, of course, that 4" from the aisle in the kitchen would be fine as the ovens open into the aisle. (Another good reason to put them there.) I think I'm leaning towards storage on the DR side of that wall rather than pantry space. I could store my china and other extra sets of dishes there.

4. DH likes the half-round. Genius idea!

5. Yes, slant takes inches.

6. Well, I need to get into that pantry! I want cooktop behind the island.

I'm going to bed now. Trying to make it before 1a.m. one day in the last month!

Breezy- You're right, it is a long way from the dining table to the dishwasher.

Crazy idea, but what if you kept the same basic plan, but switched it around, a little? Put the pantry in the other corner, with the fridge on the end (closer to the family room) and moved the sink and dishwasher closer to the baking/buffet?

Much easier to clear the table and wash dishes, the cooktop is still in between the sink and fridge, across from the island and prep sink. I'd slide the prep sink down a bit, further away from the bench/banquette.

The pantry/fridge may cause you to lose your big window, but you could put a big one over the sink. You still have the slider and window in the family room.

Also, no one walking into your work area to grab drinks out of the fridge! What do you think?

Lavender--I had drawn a couple of plans with pantry in that upper corner. I think I dismissed them because while standing at the cleanup sink my back would have been to the family room away from activities there and the TV! I'll pull those plans out and take another look. It would get the fridge-visiting path a bit more out of my way.

Here's a bigger scale drawing of the pantry corner to make sure I've got it measured out right. My very scientific method of holding another piece of graph paper on a diagonal across the pantry doorway measures the pantry doorway to be 30". You were right Rhome; I didn't have to move the pantry to gain those extra inches.

What do you think? AND, what kind of pantry door?

There's a door? I thought it was just an opening. Well, a door would be nice. What kind of door do you like with your design/style? I'm sure Rhome will have some good ideas :)

I think having the sink closer to the buffet/baking area will make it much easier to clean up and talk to your guests. I thought moving the prep sink over, might keep people from getting wet, when they're sitting at the banquette/bench. I sometimes try to fill something too fast...and....well, maybe that's just me! LOL

"Doorway" doesn't necessarily mean there'll be a door...

Dishes need to be stored near the dishwasher. I've forgotten...Do you eat dinner in the dining room every night? You could try swapping things around...but you're going to end up carrying something a long way to the dining room, the way this is laid out. No way around it unless you swap the family and dining...which won't work to keep family and living separate.

You could put the sink next to the lazy susan in the corner, then the dw, shortening the dish run even more...Then keep some kind of counter-height cart at the end for moving dishes to the dining room? It could even be a cabinet with countertop that matches the rest, but with wheels/casters under or instead of the toe kick.

Rhome- With kids and pets (probably) a door to the pantry is a good idea. My cats would be knocking stuff off the shelves, without one.

Do you think the plan would work, if you switched the sink and the fridge...and put the pantry in the other corner? It would make clean up and setting the table much easier. Also, the fridge would be out of the work space, close to the family room, to grab drinks during the commercial :)

Part of it depends on where Breezy needs windows, based on their views. If she wants to see the kids play straight out back, having the fridge there might be a problem...Not something I know the answer to.

Also how she feels about having the fridge so far from her main food serving area. Breezygirl, a lot of dish doing, you'll be standing sideways to load the dishwasher. The sink where you will stand most is the prep sink I think?

I read too fast and thought you were objecting to the door idea, LL. I hadn't thought about intruders. ;-) I don't know why...Our dogs always eat all the cat food and anything else they can find or possibly reach...Including loaves of bread off the counter! A nice darkish pantry would be a free for all! Putting a door would mean enlarging the pantry to keep the opening large enough, since it would need structural framing, and the casework uses inches, too.

Breezy- I had a little white out left, so I thought I'd give it a try :)

Rhome- Good point about where the kids play, etc. I know there's a really nice garden out the side and that's why Breezy wanted to keep the french doors. Your dogs sound like my kitties. They get into everything! LOL

Hope you don't mind, I just made a few changes to your very nice plan, to see how it would look. I'm sure your version would be much prettier!

{{gwi:1455503}}

Evening. Busy afternoon of cooking our own little after-Thanskgiving Thanksgiving.

Pantry door--it would be nice to have, but I don't think it's a deal breaker. I guess I never pictured a pantry without a door, but I'm open. If the pantry would need to be larger to get one, I don't think I would give up more counterspace for it. I'm a fairly neat person. Maybe with an overhead light when I need to go in, having it dark in there most of the time would mean everything wouldn't be extremely visible. We're down to one very sweet, geriatric, fat kitty at the moment. He can barely get on the couch. We will have more cats in the future when he's gone so that is something to think about.

Dining room--we don't eat in there very often now because we haven't had chairs in there for a while. We gave them to my Dad when we had the new table built. We'll buy new after the reno. If we go down to kitchen seating for just 4 of us according to the plans I've been drawing, then we'd eat in the new DR about 2x/week when my Mom comes for dinner. And use for parties, of course. I'm not as concerned about dishes going back and forth to the dining room as I am having a good layout and kitchen table. There's usually lots of help to move dishes around after a party.

Windows--there is not a playspace down the side of the house (french doors to deck). The deck would definetly get used for play if the kitchen and family room were situated near them so I could watch the play or move in and out easily. Window placement is open as there are great views on the side and back of the house.

Lavender--you had some spare white-out! Thanks for showing me what you meant. I'll draw it up myself to see a clean copy. It looks like I lose usable counterspace with it that way. Hmmmmm. Also, the cleanup zone and cooking zone look awfully close to each other. I'll see. Definetly worth considering all my options!

Good news! DH has come around on framing in a mudroom. I'm thinking just open storage at this point, with hooks on the walls and maybe a couple of small cubbies.

If I stick with the pantry in that bottom corner, does my close-up drawing look right?

Thanks again!

I think this could work, but I'd put the oven with the fridge and get rid of the cabinet to left.

Then, Breezy, you could spread your sink area down toward the dining room more...maybe do a pretty dish hutch that opens out onto the buffet area.

You do lose baking space with this one and the fridge is waaay down there from the eating areas.

Breezygirl, your closeup drawing looks good and the microwave fits in just right...but I think I'd add another 6 inches to the pantry to make sure that opening is comfortable.

Rhome--to which cabinet to the left are you referring? Baking space loss and fridge waaaay down there are issues to consider. I still think I'm leaning towards my last drawing of the whole kitchen with fridge down towards DR. Sorry Lavender! ;) But, every idea ruled out gets me closer to knowing what is right for me.

MW--I was drawing it to open towards fridge so I can use it for prep, but I forgot to draw the little handle. OK?

Pantry--OK. I'll add six inches to the fridge side, yes?

Breezy- I like the fridge moved closer to the dining room. Still close to the TV, close to the dining room and close to the bench. Unless you have a beverage fridge, as the kids get older, they'll always be getting into that fridge!

I don't think you'll need a door on the pantry, if you store things in containers, but if they'll be wrapped in paper or thin plastic, you might need some upper cabinets. Containers can be very pretty...and if you're a neat cook (unlike me LOL) then I'm sure it's going to look wonderful.

Looking forward to seeing your next plan! :)

DH and I were finally able to mock my/Rhome's plan up over the weekend at the house. The "kitchen" seems wonderful to work in. DH can't wrap his head around how a step-in corner pantry will work or that it doesn't have a door, but I'm working on him.

I was thinking that on that 12" wide space behind the pantry/oven wall facing the DR we could put base cabs, counterspace, and some uppers above. (Uppers would still need to be 12" deep so it wouldn't quite be the same effect as on a regular counter depth.) We would store wine glasses (maybe in glass door) and booze in uppers. The counter could be used for beverage service during parties and a bit of overflow space for buffets. (Remember I cook too much food for parties.) Lowers would store china and related serving pieces in cabs, and silver and placecard holders in drawers perhaps. All of this will be much easier to build if we use the custom cab maker. I would like a mirror backsplash there. Thoughts?

The only thing holding us back then from going full steam ahead on moving kitchen is the family room furniture placement problem, but I think we also solved it. DH had the idea of mounting the TV above the fireplace. Then we could put seating along the only wall there and under the window on upper wall. I was always afraid that an above-the-fireplace TV would be too high for easy viewing, but the seating will be pushed back far enough that I think the angle won't be bad. I also didn't want to do that before because I want the look of a traditional fireplace with mantle for decorations above. I can have that look on the other side of the fireplace facing the LR. I just have to figure out how you do this with the logistics of the cable box, DVD player, etc having to be put a distance from the TV. Anyone know how to do this?

Anyway, we're excited about these ideas. I do need to figure out how you handle TV equipment first.