One more question related to the island...what do you recommend go in the 24 inch wide and 24 inch deep square that is to the right of the prep sink? It will be across from the cooktop. Should it open towards the cooktop or the clean up sink? Drawers for knifes? Something else? What do you put next to your prep sink or wish you did?

How about an extra trash/garbage can in that 24" square w/a drawer above for prepping utensils, opening toward cooktop?

Hi tl, my layout is very similar to yours. The only difference is my fridge and pantry are to the right of my cooktop and my wine fridge is at the end of my baking center. I've only had my kitchen woking for about 6 weeks but absolutely love how easy it is to work in.
I'm not sure what layout brainstorming you have already been through but I'm wondering if you really want your fridge that far from your prep sink. I find myself taking stuff out of the fridge and going straight to the prep sink. Yours will be a bit of a walk, especially if you need to take several trips. It looks like your current kitchen has the fridge on the other side of the kitchen. Is there anyway to leave it over there so it is close to the prep sink, cooktop and baking center? Maybe you can you move your cooktop down closer to the corner to make room for the fridge.
Just a thought.

I have recycle and trash next to my prep sink. I also have cabinets with shelves for appliances across from my baking center.

The dish hutch should be near the dw and the fridge should be near the prep area for an efficient path of fridge to prep sink/prep area to stove. Right now you have long and complex paths to prep/cook or put away clean dishes.

If you put the trash next to the prep sink on the end of the island, but pulling out toward the main sink, it's accessible from both the prep area and when doing cleanup. We have ours that way and it's great.

Great idea to have one trash that is used by both clean up and prep areas. That should save me 20 inches on the clean up sink run of cabinetry. Do you have a hole in the countertop to put prep trash through? Or do you just open it to the clean up sink and wipe debris in there?

I thought the baking area was important to be near the ovens? If I move that monster hutch over to where the fridge is, next to the DW, then where am I sticking all those mixing bowls, mixers, etc. that are in the drawers and on that 30 inch deep counter space that I have on the pantry wall?

Would you put the ovens or fridge on the end of the pantry run wall? I would have 15 inches to work with, if I take the 60 inch baking area/hutch, and instead put a 45 inch wide fridge on that wall. Should there be a 15 inch countertop next to the ovens?

Camphappy,
So happy to hear you are loving your new kitchen! I look forward to writing the same some day soon. I posted a few days ago with all my kitchen designer's plans, if you do a search for tl1969 you should see it. Is your finished kitchen pictures in the blog? I would love to see it.

I am afraid that putting the fridge in the old location will create issues, because the wall is not long enough to accommodate both the 36 inch cooktop with countertops flanking, and the 45 inch fridge.

Ok, based on your feedback I drew up a new layout, this time the fridge is next to the ovens. I think since I have some extra space I will put a counter/landing zone next to the oven. It will only be about 15 inches but wide enough to fit a trash can which seems like a good thing to have near the pantry and fridge area. The aisles are 48 inches between the dishwasher and island, 50 inches between the island and pantry, 62 inches between the island and fridge/ovens, and 46 inches between the cooktop and island prep sink. Does that sound appropriate?

Here is a visual:

Do you have a hole in the countertop to put prep trash through? Or do you just open it to the clean up sink and wipe debris in there?

We just pull it open and sweep things in. I didn't want the countertop workspace interrupted with a hole.

If I move that monster hutch over to where the fridge is, next to the DW, then where am I sticking all those mixing bowls, mixers, etc. that are in the drawers and on that 30 inch deep counter space that I have on the pantry wall?... I would have 15 inches to work with, if I take the 60 inch baking area/hutch, and instead put a 45 inch wide fridge on that wall. Should there be a 15 inch countertop next to the ovens?

If you make those moves, it does mean adjusting your storage. It's your work paths I'm concerned about most. Storage does count, though. Maybe some in the pantry? But speaking of pantry, I find that corners make lousy storage, so would only use an L shelf configuration, instead of a U. (The area behind your pullout shelves will be nearly worthless, including hard to access and see) I would also not use that valuable cabinetry for another trash pullout if you're already worried about losing storage. If it were me, I'd seriously consider cutting the pantry by the size of that right-side shelf, making the shelves into the L, and giving yourself another 15 or 18" for that baking counter.

Oh, boy... Just noticed something very important. Your drawing is somewhat confusing/misleading because of being out of scale. Most places 1 square represents 1 foot, but not everywhere. --Your 48" aisle is larger than the 60" hutch.. And your spot in the corner on the sink wall, marked 27.5" is longer than the 36" sink. I'd redraw and repost to make sure we're seeing things accurately. The relationship of things we have an impression of now could change a lot when it's to scale.

Per your request, here is the layout, drawn to scale. First is the big picture:

And here is the same drawing zoomed in on the upper half of the picture:

And finally here is the lower half of the drawing, closer in:

You can see that I took 21 inches off the pantry to create a 36 inch wide counter next to the oven. I will not be able to use the right side of the pantry the way you describe due to this enormous box that is on the floor and goes up about 2 feet high. Also, the roof line slopes in the pantry in that section due to the staircase over it. So that cuts down on the upper shelves capacity.

I think you will be happier with the new location of the fridge.
If you can do what Rhome suggests and cut down your pantry (is it 9' long?) you might have room between your ovens and pantry for the baking center. I think 3.5' - 4' might be minimum for counter space for a baking area? You could then put your glass upper cabs over it.

Your recycle area looks huge. Could you share it with trash and then have more drawer space with your baking center for bowls and stuff?

It is good you are taking the time to do this. It is well worth it.

I don't have pics posted yet. I was going to wait until BS was done but not sure when that will be. I could email you some if you want to see it. It is very similar to yours.

Camphappy I would love to see any photos you can share with me. I am getting some resistance from both my Significant Other and KD so pictures that have this layout and a testimonial from you might help me in persuading them :-)

I could definitely place a second trash where the recycling goes. I just wanted to remind myself that there is a dedicated paper recycling area near my desk where I pay my bills.

I plan to use that 36 inch counter next to the ovens for storage underneath, and cabinet above. That was why I bumped it up to 36 inches instead of 30 or so.

Thanks for giving me some encouragement. I am feeling completely overwhelmed and stressed out by all these last minute changes before I sign off on the layout.

Have to admit, I totally overlooked the solarium all this time! Wow. Tunnel-vision. ;-) It looks like the entrance to the solarium from the kitchen might be pinched too small by the hutch. I'd adjust the hutch size to give that doorway more room.

I like this version the best. I would, however, bring the fridge and oven fronts out flush with the rest of that wall. You could swap the oven and counter area, if there might be a conflict with the fridge door and the oven handle.

What matters most is how YOU want your kitchen, especially if you're the main cook and baker. Your significant other could have something to say, depending on the whys and wherefores of the opinions, and the amount of involvement in the room. My opinion (any outsider, no matter how well-meaning) or the KD's opinions do not carry any weight, in the long run, because we won't be in the house and kitchen with you. I like this plan better, but you lost the beverage area you originally had. Are you happy with the compromise?

Now is the time to be considering changes, because once orders are placed and work starts, you're kind of stuck and you want to avoid 2nd guessing and regrets later. You will be the loser if others hurry you too much into something you haven't thought through, while they just move on with their own lives and, in the case of anyone not in your house, their own kitchens. Take a breather if you need to, ignoring pressure from others if necessary, to get this so you're satisfied it's the best it can be for what you need and want. It's a lot of money for the remodel and you'll be working in the result for a long time.

It's hard and frustrating to guess all the future needs, and to see and consider all the possibilities. It takes time, and, in the end, a leap of faith in your own decisions.

Can you integrate the recycling for your desk area into the desk area or reduce the size? Camphappy is right that it seems to take up valuable real estate. We have one recycle bin behind our trash bin in our double trash pullout. It only takes up 18" for both.

Hi Rhome,
I have a mudroom that is 5 feet from the desk area, so I can put the paper recycling in there. I agree the island storage is too valuable to be left for recycling. I will however need to put a stool somewhere so my boys can reach stuff. Is there an efficient place to stick a slim stool?

Do you want the pantry to be flush with the ovens strictly for aesthetic reasons? Personally, I like having the fridge and ovens and the baking area counter top recessed, with 62 inches of walking space between the island and that wall, as this is a thoroughfare in the house. That large opening into the kitchen from the dining room and family room is going to be a really nice change. I decided to swap the 36 inch baking counter and the oven, so there won't be any issue with the fridge door hitting the oven door. Good suggestion. I hope 36 inches will feel wide enough for that countertop. Camphappy said 3.5 to 4 is the minimum, but I have a feeling we will use the 9 foot island for our baking needs.

I have made a list of all our stuff to store in our new kitchen and it is massive! I hope to figure out of if extra shelves or drawers on the island side will be most beneficial, in that space where I had the paper recycling drawn.

Also, is there a 60 inch wide hutch that you like on the Finished Kitchens that I could look at for guidance? I hope to have appliance garages in the back 12 inches, and let the remaining 12 inches of counter space be free on the hutch. Is that allowed? Or was that only doable when the hutch was on the oven wall and 30 inches deep?

While I would love to expand the 32" doorway to the solarium, I am not sure I can still do it, as the permits have already been pulled re. the area of the load bearing wall (between the solarium and the kitchen) to be eliminated. I also think the 48 inch beverage area/bar will be compromised by making the doorway larger and the wall space shorter in the solarium. I think a 36 inch bar will be way too tight for the sink and fridge drawers.

I agree that I am going to have to live with this for a long, long time, and should not rush into anything. But, I have been working on this since July and interviewed countless architects, interior designers, kitchen designers, contractors, etc. and am ready to move forward and pull the trigger! I also told the builder that demolition can start on December 3rd, 2012 and have signed a contract to that effect. Finally, I have a non-functioning freezer, dishwasher and 2 out of 4 gas burners, so I REALLY want this renovation to get started sooner rather than later.

Hi Rhome,
I have a mudroom that is 5 feet from the desk area, so I can put the paper recycling in there. I agree the island storage is too valuable to be left for recycling. I will however need to put a stool somewhere so my boys can reach stuff. Is there an efficient place to stick a slim stool?

Do you want the pantry to be flush with the ovens strictly for aesthetic reasons? Personally, I like having the fridge and ovens and the baking area counter top recessed, with 62 inches of walking space between the island and that wall, as this is a thoroughfare in the house. That large opening into the kitchen from the dining room and family room is going to be a really nice change. I decided to swap the 36 inch baking counter and the oven, so there won't be any issue with the fridge door hitting the oven door. Good suggestion. I hope 36 inches will feel wide enough for that countertop. Camphappy said 3.5 to 4 is the minimum, but I have a feeling we will use the 9 foot island for our baking needs.

I have made a list of all our stuff to store in our new kitchen and it is massive! I hope to figure out of if extra shelves or drawers on the island side will be most beneficial, in that space where I had the paper recycling drawn.

Also, is there a 60 inch wide hutch that you like on the Finished Kitchens that I could look at for guidance? I hope to have appliance garages in the back 12 inches, and let the remaining 12 inches of counter space be free on the hutch. Is that allowed? Or was that only doable when the hutch was on the oven wall and 30 inches deep?

While I would love to expand the 32" doorway to the solarium, I am not sure I can still do it, as the permits have already been pulled re. the area of the load bearing wall (between the solarium and the kitchen) to be eliminated. I also think the 48 inch beverage area/bar will be compromised by making the doorway larger and the wall space shorter in the solarium. I think a 36 inch bar will be way too tight for the sink and fridge drawers.

I agree that I am going to have to live with this for a long, long time, and should not rush into anything. But, I have been working on this since July and interviewed countless architects, interior designers, kitchen designers, contractors, etc. and am ready to move forward and pull the trigger! I also told the builder that demolition can start on December 3rd, 2012 and have signed a contract to that effect. Finally, I have a non-functioning freezer, dishwasher and 2 out of 4 gas burners, so I REALLY want this renovation to get started sooner rather than later.

Do you mean a folding step stool? We fit a narrow cabinet for one of those into a 6-inch gap we didn't know what to do with otherwise in our last house, and it was one of my favorite features of the kitchen. You could maybe tuck one into the pantry, or even maybe hang it on a side wall in there. In this house we left a 18" gap in the island, and we slide a 24" wooden stool there. The idea was for sitting while doing a long prep project, but I find it handiest for grabbing the stool to reach the top shelf in upper cabinets. Just ideas. You'll have to think about where you want it and how it might fit best.

I think the shallow counter in front of the hutch top where it is now works even better than doing so in the baking counter. I wouldn't want a shallow counter where I use the mixer. Where it is now, I think it'll be fine, as it's not a major work spot.

I didn't know you were working with an existing doorway into the solarium, as it only looked like an open spot on the latest plan. Still, I wouldn't want the hutch right up to the edge. Leaving a few inches of room to move through there is nice, and even if it isn't in the actual doorway, it'll feel better.

There are beautiful hutches of all sizes and types. If you want to incorporate appliance garages, I like the ones shown on David T Smith's site. I'll link it below.

Here is a link that might be useful: a David T Smith kitchen. Click on the gold hutch photos

One more item, I have a feeling that when I present this design to my KD she is going to push for having the pantry divided, with 33 inches on one side and 33 inches on the other side of the oven wall, as she is very into symmetry. One unexpected bonus with that idea is the pull out pantries would be 24 inches deep, so it would be all flush with the fridge and ovens. Would that be a big deal or do I need to have the fridge at the end of the run? Sounds like if I do the L design you describe in my 65 inch long and 36 inch deep pantry I am going to lose the pull out shelves on the far right anyway. Since it sounds like those will turn into fixed shelves. Am I describing the L Shaped pantry correctly, Rhome?

Just found an old layout from another designer I had considered but her cabinet brand was too pricey, and she has along the oven wall the following from the desk area moving left:

Utility Closet that is 6 feet 3 inches wide to take advantage of the deep fixed shelves on the right - 30 inch wall ovens - 48 inch fridge - 36 inch pantry and doorway. Do you think that idea has merit? Obviously the dimensions would be slightly altered by my fridge size, etc. but it still works.

It'll be a more direct path to the fridge from the stove if it's on the end of the run.

Symmetry on that wall, in my opinion, is far down the list from function, since it's not a focal point. I have symmetry on my stove wall, but not on the side walls. I don't think I'd want symmetry on more than one wall. I wouldn't split the pantry. If you want the pantries flush with the oven and fridge, you can do that without doing split, symmetrical pantries, can't you?

The other designer's idea would work, but you have the possible oven/fridge handle conflict, and you lose your counter for your mixer, etc.

I can't answer the questions about your pantry shelves, because I'm not sure how they have to work because of the issue of the box framed in at the bottom of that one side. I just have no idea how you can have pullouts as they were drawn and get full use of the space.

Thanks, Rhome and Bmorepanic, for spending a great deal of time with me over the past 5 days, as I sorted out all of my layout issues and answered my many questions.

You are both so talented and smart, I really appreciate your sharing so much wisdom with me. Even if you don't always agree!

I am going to present to my kitchen designer the new kitchen plan today. I hope it can be done for the same budget numbers as the kitchen she presented last week to me.

Have a great day!
TL

I hope it goes well.

Ok, just reviewed NKBA guidelines that say the fridge should be no more than 48 inches from the landing zone, so it seems the fridge and ovens should be flush with the pantry doors, in order to be 50 inches from the island, not 62. I suppose the good thing about having 12 unused inches behind the fridge and ovens is that I can bump out the 1st garage bay and create a niche for shelving, and store some of the garage items that will be displaced with the mudroom taking over 11 x 8 feet of SFootage. So, in the end it's a win.

Sounds good... but remember that NKBA guidelines are just that. People have happily fudged them either way. Also remember that most counter depth fridges are more than 24 inches and will definitely stick out beyond the rest by at least the door thickness... unless you're getting a truly integrated, built-in model.

Best wishes with the kd and budget!

Duly noted re. the aisle widths. So, we shall see what feels right. Turns out the extra 12 inches of dead space behind the fridge and ovens I thought I would have to play with, is in my Dining Room, not the 1st bay of my garages :-(

I plan to install a Sub Zero 42 inch built in side by side. It will NOT be fully integrated.

So, a lot of my appliances, (food processor, juicer, etc.) are 14 inches high. If I make the counter between the fridge and ovens (baking counter) flush with the pantry doors I will have 12 inches (give or take) behind the countertop of dead space. Could I make that countertop 36 inches deep, and then hide those appliances behind an appliance garage, and keep the hutch countertop free for putting stuff down when removing or placing items on the shelves? Then I would still have 24 inches of available space to work on.

Sounds possible, and like a good idea. Then what would you do about the upper above it...Keep them flush with the appliance garages or bring them out, so they're easier to reach into?

I was thinking of bringing them out so they are easier to reach into. Not sure if the cabinet maker can do it, but I like the idea conceptually.

I think it might take some framing behind.

Ok, the designer should have the new drawings for me tomorrow. And the new budget for everything. Keep your fingers crossed it's all do-able.

On another note, I had a dental appointment today and my teeth grinding over the past few months has gotten so bad that I cracked my mouthguard! And put a chip in my crown. Yikes. Stressed out a little? I guess I should add my dental bill to the kitchen remodel budget ;-)

I've been wondering if you were able to work out things with your KD.

I gave up on my mouthguard long ago, because it was supposed to stop the jaw clenching, but I just crunched down on it instead, and my jaw got no relief.