The bar: if you make it table height, where would you change heights? I don't see a natural way to do that.

Counter by refrig: Seems like making that counter deeper is a fin idea. I'd just make sure the counter stops a little bit back from the wall corner, so that you don't have to worry about it meeting 'just right' and so that end of that counter 'dies' into the wall.

MW: In the uppers near the fridge and over that deeper counter should be a good location. In fact, I don't know of any place in your kitchen that could be just as good or better. It is close to the fridge, sink, and cooking areas, but also easy to use by someone who needs to stay out of the way of the cook.

Peninsula sink: How much bar seating do you need on a daily basis? If you put in a sink, you'll make the 3rd (end) seat much less comfortable, since it'll be in the 'splash zone' and have a faucet right in that person's face. I don't know, either, if you'd have any space left for that person's plate.

HTH and best wishes!

Much better!

Counter & MW on refrigerator wall: good idea to both! Not only will you get a deeper wall cabinet for your MW, but you will also get a deeper work surface. Not sure, though, what that would do to your clearance b/w the peninsula and small counter next to the refrigerator.

The main negative I see, right now, is the traffic issue. With the mudroom in the upper left corner and the only way out of it is into the kitchen AND the only exit from the kitchen is in the lower right corner, people will be traipsing through the entire kitchen. I suppose you could always open up the kitchen b/w the wall and the refrigerator...

I don't remember, is the FP already there? If not, could you move it over to the right and then have either a separate hallway from the Mudroom to the LR or at least clear out the kitchen cabinets on the left and allow that area to be a path to/from the mudroom?

Thanks guys!

rhome410-yeah--I was thinking the same thing about the bar sink. Might have to forgo that--I like having three at the bar ideally....
I'm not sure how the whole bar thing will work--hopefull some three-D renderings from the architect will fix it in my imagination for me :)

beuhl-One of my sacrifices indeed with this plan is the traffic through the kitchen (it is the same flow I have now) but it may be the compromise in otherwise getting everything else I want. Moving the kitchen way over to the sunroom was going to get very costly and thus eliminate any hope of the finishes and appliances I want--
At least with seating outside of the kitchen they have someplace to go when they exit the kitchen that isn't standing around me while I cook! :)

Indeed, the fireplace is there already. Believe it or not we considered taking the whole thing out basement to top floor--it causes massive problems in the basement flow/circulation--but alas, you can imagine the cost of THAT!

Will continue to scooch things around --keep those thoughts coming!

Best,
B

I wonder since you are not moving the kitchen if you could afford to move the wall between the porch and the existing living and maybe do something like this.

I would add a prep-sink in the peninsula so you would have cooking out of the walk through path into the kitchen from mudroom and dining room. Then you have the clean-up sink only in the traffic path which I think would be less of an issue and no need to walk out through dining and then living. You'd also have the living room out of the traffic path and better for furniture arrangement. By keeping a large opening you can extend the table still toward that area if needed.

{{!gwi}}

Of course I'm not sure what the dimensions are, if there is enough room for the dining set there, but you had it similary before. I think this gives you more usable space overall and less wasted space by having to walk through all the rooms.

I'd agree that a prep sink in the peninsula would really enhance the functionality of the space, but I'd be inclined to put in in the far corner by the range. That way, the faucet would be out of your guests' faces, you'd have a nice use for an otherwise 'dead' space, and you'd have a large counter for prep work.

If you have an interior corner anywhere in your courrent kitchen, I'd try standing there and seeing how that might feel to you, just to make sure it's accessible enough.

I think Lyfia's plan looks great. Much more open floor plan. People at the peninsula can interact with people in the living room. Closer access from dining room to the clean up sink. The path to other parts of the house from the mud room is not thru the kitchen. You now have a prep sink. If needed, maybe you could fit some tall pantry cabs(12-15" deep) against the wall behind the bar stools. Not sure what the clearances are over there.

lyfia's plan is awesome--now if someone could lend me a bucket o' money to execute it ;) That wall is a load bearing exterior wall. As it stands, we're punching a big hole in it and removing the shingling (which is internal to the prefab aluminum sun porch) and making it "interior space." Moving it doesn't fall into the budget :( but it would be ideal, wouldn't it? Thanks for drawing it...

That sunporch area is the only area that does not have a second floor above it, just a square flat roof--

As background for latecomers...this is half of a whole house remodel in our existing footprint. One of our back bedrooms and the garage are becoming the master suite on the other end of the house...so we're packing a lot in here.

I am going to shoot some photos for you and load them tomorrow that will add more context---those corner triangles that keep moving around these plans are beautiful existing built ins that we're trying to preserve--practical in every sense?, not really--but I just love them. They are ornate, with glass doors and really terrific...but they do limit certain pursuits (like the pantry cabinets malhgold mentions) We're playing with their location.

We're going to keep playing with this prep sink idea--the corner may very well be an option...will noodle that one.

Our house is this cool funky cape that was part of the end of the public works housing project boom in 1939. there are about a dozen or two like it in Silver Spring, MD. Because it was constructed much like a kit house in that things were set up for unskilled labor to put together on site--
it has its "loveable idiosyncracies" :)

It was near unliveable when we moved in 10.5 years ago but one of my favorite "finds" when we opened walls up to repair them were the half-dozen empty gin bottles from 1939 (year it was built) behind the walls! We've saved them...what a hoot. House is solid as a rock--go figure.

We do love it--and one of the reasons we've gone the architect route is so we don't ruin the place in pursuit of our goals for more useable space.

We've hired a unique architect/builder partnership--topic for another thread as we get further along... :) So far so good...

Thanks again everyone, you're just terrific...

Sorry to be the dissenter here, but I think you're going backward. It seems like the traffic in and out and through the kitchen is quite awkward. I remember weird traffic patterns through the living room were one thing that bug you about your current setup. It looks to me that the weirdness is just amplified by the latest layout.

In my mind, a peninsula should serve a purpose, separating a space that needs separating. In this plan, the space behind the peninsula just seems randomly cut off from the rest of the kitchen and kind of wasted space, which in a small house seems like a poor choice.

I can't remember if you mentioned this before, but what is the item in the top right corner? Is that structural or a piece of furniture?

What was your reaction to bmorepanic's suggested layout at the end of the old thread? I think the basic flow in that layout makes a lot of sense and would be a better direction. Were there problems with it? I would make changes to the kitchen area, but I think it's a great start. I would much prefer having the main work areas on the right side with the peninsula on the left like bmorepanic had it.

Hi holligator-don't apologize-I'm posting so I get this from all angles...
The thing that I do like about bmorepanic and lyfia's plans is that they open up that door again to the living room to direct traffic there. But bmorepanic's plan just initially seemed very broken up to me. I think the other thing working on me mentally is--now that we've kept the kitchen in place rather than moved it, I'm finding myself less apt to change the things I actually LIKE about my current kitchen--and there are indeed a lot of things I like.So that may be a mental block for me.

One of our other things is, we're re-using our 10 year old cherry cabinets. We picked them out, still love them and they are still available--so we're just using what we can of those and filling in with more.

My priorities for the remodel as a whole are:
-Master bed and bath
-A more open kitchen/dining footprint that allows guest to hangout while I cook without being in my way, and has room to seat 8-10 diners on a fairly regular basis. (we're only a family of four but host Sunday dinners weekly)

It has been hard not to be distracted by other issues in achieving these two primary goals--I think there are several perfect solutions here, we just can't afford them. We are in a stage of the design where a detailed itemization of costs will be provided soon--and that's where we can really get into what is and isn't possible on this more detailed level. We're dealing in such big squishy numbers right now...

In a sense I do agree with you about the step backward--hubby and I had a few go-rounds regarding switching over to this sort of layout--but it's tradeoffs...and we think this might be the way to go---but everything is still on the table.

The two triangles (top right corner) and one other that has moved around the plan quite a bit---are two built-ins that I'm somewhat irrationally committed to saving and using.

{{gwi:1582667}}

Anyhow, still playing with all this--
Right now trying to weigh the benefits of opening that wall to the living room back up as opposed to the benefit of more cabinets/counters in that space--and where does MW go? :) We're not big MW cookers but use it enough for reheating...

Your continued comments appreciated.....

B

Well, I can see why you're committed to saving the built-ins. They're beautiful. And now I see the other one and how it's been moved around. Since they are apparently movable, I'd suggest moving them both into your new dining room addition and freeing up that corner for kitchen.

Starting with a blank slate like this one could open up so many more functional possibilities for your kitchen layout.

Here's one idea that is admittedly not thoroughly thought out yet, but it gives you a sense of what I'm thinking. This one has a peninsula with seating with the traffic area behind it. It has another peninsula that I envision as more of a buffet area for your dining room. You could also have a wall there with more upper cabs and close off the dining room, but I kind of like the openness. I guess it depends on how formal your entertaining is. I think I remember you describing it as more informal, though, which is why I went with it open. You'd lose that one window, but that's the side with ugly view anyway, right?

What do you think of this direction? You could also make a bigger window over the sink, with a view of the back yard to bring in more light.

I think you should consider finding out how much it would cost to put beams in to move the loadbearing wall at least. I know so many people are worried about messing with loadbearing and exterior walls and moving them, but it is done all the time and not as bad as people often think. You might need to have an exposed beam, but you can then add a fake one to match and make it a design feature. You often see this in older houses that have additions so wouldn't be out of place either.

I wouldn't worry about rooms matching up ot the outside roof lines either. Nobody will see that when inside and nobody outside will know where a room starts or ends.

I didn't see the previous thread but I just had to write to say I think Holligator's plan is a brilliant idea. And lyfia's right -it might be worthwhile to talk to a structural engineer about the load bearing wall issue. It might not be as pohibitive as you think. Because it is a small home, every square foot has to count in terms of traffic flow and convenience and a change like this could make your life very pleasant.

I'm sorry....I have to vote for Hollingator's plan too :) I love the built ins in the dining room (they're lovely) and the flow of that kitchen location.

You all are amazing--thanks again for the time you're investing in this!

I think I'm leaning toward a hybrid of lyfia and holligator's plan--playing with some ideas including possibly opening that door back up to send traffic straight from back to front--

and also going to investigate moving both built-ins as holligator has done. We "think" they are moveable--at least they're going to try for us. The built ins are as old as the house and the body of them is actually a composite wall board...good carpenters for the work so we are very optimistic...but until we try there is no guarantee...so I guess what I'm saying is, if we start to break one down and it isn't working well and we're destroying it--the other one (upper right corner) will stay right where it is so we don't lose both.

In any case, I have myself pretty well convinced that I like the dining area in that lower right corner. We do indeed entertain more casually most of the time and we love crab feasts--which you can imagine are a hoot when we're in my currently "formal" dining room--would be so nice with the airy open windows in that other corner.we homeschool as well so the kids are often around the table and they gravitate to that sunporch/sunny corner of the house in the morning for their work--what better place for the dining room table?

We will definitely have a firmer idea of cost as we get into next week -- we are squeezing a lot in--despite what I felt was a large budget to start with--it's amazing where it all goes! We're converting the garage and the smallest of our four bedrooms into a master suite, reconfiguring bedroom number 3's closet space and doorways to get ourselves a coat closet and then the project you all have been helping me with--along with some various and sundry little touches that qualify as maintenance(floors, threshold and door replacement, etc.)

I'm going to play with these ideas for a while and meet with the architect next week to start nailing down the details. We are on target to start this summer, which would be the least disruptive for us--having you all to turn to for thoughts is making this process much more efficient for us--thank you thank you.
B

Given that they are painted, I imagine that even if they need to replace sections, they can move the built-ins successfully. They can certainly salvage the decorative moldings, doors, and shelving of the built-ins, probably even the whole front. So, even if they have to build new "shells" or backs for them, the original look will be maintained.

I am really looking forward to seeing your project progress. You'll definitely have to keep us posted.

berf to save yourself some money of re-configuring the bedroom #3 for a coat closet, could you if you keep the dining in the lower right put a coat closet right by the front door in that dead space right there where you can't really put anything but decorative furniture.

Would just require framing the closet. Not re-working anything else and cost a lot less and you wouldn't loose bedroom closet space either.

Thanks lyfia--that is actually our fall back plan if we have to start slashing and burning to maintain the budget! When I get time I'll upload a picture of the other half of the plan...the bedroom entry we're reconfiguring is really strange right now with a useless "vestibule" that then gives you access to a door at the head of the space underneath the stairs...but it's so awkward I can barely bend myself in there beyond the front of it. So in otherwords, the whole closet reconfig not only gets us useable closet space but better utilizes this "dead space" there right now...hard to explain unless you see the befores and afters. It's definitely lower on the priority list for spending money...but I'm in the early "hopeful" stages ;)

I'm purging stuff because the church yardsale is around the corner and it's a great opportunity to get rid of the extras I don't want around for the reno. So when I get all that mess cleaned up I'll upload some more, including some before pictures...

So far am still having fun ...
B