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Please give me feedback on new kitchen plan

16 years ago

Hi y'all! I have been so impressed with the advice you have given me and others in the past I thought that I would ask for some feedback on our plan for our new kitchen.

Though I know that some things we want may be a little unconventional (like a nook for pet feeding) and that there are some things I absolute just don't want (like stainless appliances or a built-in refrigerator), sometimes a fresh pair of eyes can see something I'm not.

We are a family of three soon to be only two when the DD leaves for college. DH loves to cook and looks forward to becoming an even better cook with the right tools. We are building a craftsman bungalow in a historical area. I will either use a local cabinet maker or do Schuler Cabinets from Lowes. We want a shaker style in quartersawn oak with soapstone counters. As far as appliances right now we're leaning toward a RNB Heritage Classic BlueStar range with 21 inch high shelf and salamander. Other than the hood we will go very basic with the other appliances which we will do in black.

I had the designer at Lowes draw up a plan but it was too light to scan plus my scanner isn't working so I've redrawn the plan and photographed it. I've labeled all of the sizes of the lower cabinets but not the uppers. You can see the configuration of the uppers in the Lowes' pictures. Since the kitchen will be a little limited on natural light we are thinking about light tubes.

Also we haven't quite decided on the ceiling. Right now the strange little dotted line from the right of the French doors to the column closest to the main refrigerator is the line where the plan calls for a flat ceiling (9 feet tall) to the left and a cathedral ceiling with wooden beams to the right. I'm not sure about all of that and it can be changed, but maybe that should be for a different post. Right now let's just stick to the layout!

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Comments (15)

rhome410
16 years ago
Will the TV be easily/comfortably viewable by anyone?

The biggest (only?) problem I see right off is the space for seating. If people are seated at your overhang, you won't be able to get in or out of the room...not without squeeeezing sideways. This being Thanksgiving makes me think of visitors chatting at the island while you're trying to get food and other things to the table. A person sitting in the position to the far left may even crowd your access to the fridge.

If you pull it back a foot, or do a combination of pulling it back and flattening the arch to reduce it by a foot, overall, I think it still wouldn't be optimum, but much better.

Also, I'd really encourage you to consider leaving the island at one level. That rise won't keep people from the other room from seeing the counters on the stove side of the room, and it just reduces what could be a wonderful, deep workspace. Maybe that DD will bring back grandchildren one day who will want to work on rolling out cookies with Grandma. :-) Meanwhile, there are baking projects, wrapping gifts, etc. that will be nicer to work on with a deep, roomy workspace.
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ncamy
Original Author
16 years ago
Oh the island is going to be one level. I don't know why she drew it that way. DH was just talking about how nice it would be to have that flat huge workspace. Also the arch can definitely be flattened. By the way we are planning on using backless stools and not huge chair-like barstools. DH doesn't want the prep sink to be too far from the range. We were afraid that aisle space over 4 feet would be too much. By the way we are not going to have a pot filler but the prep sink will be fairly large and deep and we're thinking round unlike the one shown.
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I have lots of thoughts, but would like to say that, like pp's, overall it is nice. I think you might be able to add the extra stairs to the first floor end and just move the LR door down the hall. I would reconfigure the powder room to get the toilet water service off the outside wall and give yourself a bigger vanity. Simply back the toilet up to the laundry wall room in the back corner of the PR and run the vanity along the same wall before the toilet as you come in the door. That gives the toilet a little niche beside the vanity, people tend to feel a little more secure with that arrangement :). You will also get your pipes off the outside wall, have water service for both laundry and PR on the same wall (less expensive for plumbing), have room for a 48" vanity (nice to have extra storage) and still allow a whopping 36" of space in which to center the toilet. Or you could have an 18" tower cab, 36" vanity, standard 30" wide space for toilet. Those measurements would adjust by 4" depending on which side you're putting your interior wall width. You need to swap the washer and dryer to put the dryer on the outside wall for venting and the washer further away from the outside wall. If it were me and I had both a LR (quiet place to read?) and a FR (TV, games, etc.), I think I'd take a few more feet off the LR and give it to the DR so that you can accommodate a crowd when needed and get better use out of the room for crafting and/or have room for piano or another secondary use. I'd put pocket doors in that cased opening between the DR and the FR. That way they can be open when needed and closed when desired (you'd be surprised how often in family life that need arises; especially if you do use it for sewing or put a piano, music practice area, or art corner in there! Or even if it just becomes a quiet place to use your laptop). I would also try to make the kitchen a little more accessible to the family room. Anyone with kids won't be able to see or check on them easily. Kitchen to family room is the highest traffic flow and talk-across in our family. I wouldn't want to have go through the mudroom (breakfast nook?) or go around through the dining room taking several turns to get to it. Pedestrian flow would be great, but even an old fashioned pass through over the base cabinets on that wall would help. The kitchen also seems a little widespread with over 10 feet between the cabinet run and the sink. It's not enough space for an eat-in table or island, but a little too much to me to just be open, kwim? If that extra space is your eat-in area and not mudroom, you could try schussing the whole kitchen to the back wall, swapping the peninsula with the range counter so that the range can vent to an outside wall. That shortens the distance walking in with groceries to counters and cabinets. Also, then your eat-in nook area could be open to or have a direct door to the FR and be closer to the formal dining room, too, for overflow family events (think kids' table or "befores" buffet, removed but not too far away from grown ups). As for collapsing or making the space between the outside wall and the pantry cabinet run more useful, I'm not sure, but I think it could be done by playing around with the arrangement a bit. And, yes, I'd definitely put the fridge elsewhere to make that doorway more open. Upstairs, how about making the two itty-bitty hinged-door closets between the office and BR one long two-sided closet with sliding doors instead? The office/extra BR probably won't need much closet space most of the time and that would give the BR more. Bath access for front left BR is awkward, but I'm not sure how to get around that with the center stairwell. You might trying playing with the idea of changing to a left-front entry instead of center, but that would be a lot reworking that might not work... Finally, what orientation is and what is the view out the left side (LR, DR, FR side) of the house? I see a lot of windows, but this seems to be a narrow lot plan. There is only one window on the other long side. I am wondering what you get to see from different places in the house and how the light works during the day.
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I think the plan is really strong. The thinness of the sections gets you light from multiple sides of a room and deep into the room. You might get some of the corridors to do double duty by lining with built-ins. Are you sure you need the stair from the master? How old would the kids be when you move in? Could the youngest be right at the top of the main stair? Good call on not letting the 5-10 minutes per week of carrying in groceries drive your entire plan by parking your cars 3 feet from your fridge. The spacing of the porch columns is in some places inconsistent, and quite wide given the spanning beams aren't that deep. A prior suggestion of board and batten on the barn sounds nice, clapboard everywhere else. Some thoughts on the front elevation. You're on a big farm and if the intent is a farmhouse that has grown over time, then the main (front/head) house might be more consistent with this approach if it were conceived as three connected boxes with gable roofs. If you look at your 3d view, this is how it looks from the back. This would require losing the twin front facing gables and some jogs (which as nice as the plan is, the inset front entry doesn't look to be essential). If you did this, it could be nice if the largest part with the main entry could be all stone, as the "original" house in the narrative. The rest as clapboard additions. As it is now, the front elevation although ok on it's own doesn't have much in common with the rest of the ensemble and is clearly the newest part. Just depends on your intent. Good luck. This post was edited by dadereni on Sun, May 12, 13 at 13:14
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If stairs go down to the basement, what ceiling height are you planning for the basement? And what size (thickness will floor joists be? Also, will there be any other access to the basement to allow you to bring any necessary furniture to the basement without going down those stairs? Since stairs going down into a basement are not typically used as a focal point feature, do you really want to have the top of the stairs open up into the front foyer? It might make more sense (space usage wise) to have a door going down to the basement located in the great room. That way your staircase would only need one L-turn landing near the bottom of the stairs. A landing for an L-turn on a 3 ft wide stair case takes up a 3x3 space. Straight run staircases uses available space most efficiently. Either way, I think you're still going to have an uncomfortably steep staircase but you can probably build one within code IF your floor to floor measurement between basement and first floor is no more than 9 ft. Second issue: Although I totally understand the increased sense of privacy gained by having the twisty hall way leading to the master bedroom, have you consider how difficult that is going to make the process of moving furniture into the bedroom? Issue 3: Is that meant to be a fireplace on the right hand great room wall? If so, it looks like the allocated space is only about 24 to 30 inches. That is not enough for even a very small fire place. Do some research on "firebox" dimensions and then keep in mind that you also have to provide enough space around the firebox for fireproof insulation. You simply can't put wood framing right up next to a firebox... not even a gas fireplace. I suspect that once you widen that space to accommodate the size fireplace you want, you're not going to be happy with what that does to your master bath and master closet. Speaking of masterbath, those two vanity sinks are scrunched awfully close together. Most people want a double-sink vanity to be about 72 inches wide. Otherwise if two people are trying to get ready at the same time, they are constantly bumping elbows. Plus, with a narrower space, there is no room to set down hair curlers, make up, electric toothbrush, electric razor, etc. Finally, I think you mentioned early on that you wanted an "accessible" design. If by that you mean you want at least one bathroom to be wheelchair accessible, then you need to rethink at least one of your bathrooms. None of your bathrooms, as currently designed, is at all accessible. An accessible bathroom has to provide enough free floor space for a wheelchair to turn completely around. That typically means 5 ft diameter circle of free floor space at a minimum. You also have to make sure that there is room enough next to the toilet to park a wheel chair while the occupant transfers him/herself to the toilet and room in front of the vanity for the wheel chair to roll in under the sink allowing the occupant to wash his/her hands while seated in the wheelchair. If you're serious about making the house accessible, while you're doing research, you might want to read up on accessibility design a bit.
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Pocket door into half bath would fix that. Agree with moving the wall/door entering the master more towards the Garage so door when open is contained within the BR entry. What are the size of the doors into the bedrooms ? You have plenty of room for each one, so go with at least 32" into each bedroom ... 36" would be even better. Good for possible future accessibility for wheelchair or crutches. Also makes moving furniture SO much easier. Where do the stairs in the garage go ? Agree with needing privacy for toilet. How do you plan on laying out the furniture for the master ? I would move door into bath all the way to the left and reconfigure the bath sinks and toilet area. This would allow the bed headboard to be against the bath wall. I wouldn't want the headboard on the fireplace wall and wouldn't want it on the window wall. I like the curved seating at the island which allows ease of seeing each other and conversation when several people are seated there. Agree with swapping fridge and ovens. I like to unpack my groceries all to one area. Or gather the ingredients for a meal all from one area. It does separate the cooktop from the ovens, but normally you put a dish in the oven then walk area from it until it is done so this might be ok. Also, recess the fridge box into the pantry by 6-8" to allow for the look of a cabinet depth built in fridge for the MUCH cheaper standard fridge price. I would move the door onto the sunroom toward the covered porch so it's easier to get out there without bumping into a table in the dinette. Without the door in the middle of the wall, it also makes furniture grouping easier in that room. Upstairs left (top) bedroom ... move the closet to square up the bedroom with the wall of the bathroom and move door into bedroom down accordingly, leaving a short hallway upstairs before you enter bedroom. Change bath door to enter from the end so closet door and bath door are side by side. Use space where bedroom closet was for a closet that opens from the hall. There is no such thing as too much storage !! I cannot imagine any use for the notched area as it was before. You could also have a door right across from this new closet into the attic space above the garage. Walk in attics rock. All in all, very nice plans !!
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rhome410
16 years ago
I actually have a 3 ft aisle between my rangetop and island/prep sink, and really wouldn't want it any further. A nice, efficient, turn back and forth.

Just to clarify, when I said, "Pull it back a foot", I meant the overhang...and I meant toward the range...so it's pulled back out of the doorway.
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User
16 years ago
HUGE safety hazard having those cabinets come down NEXT to the range!!! You need at least 15" of open counter space front to back next to a range (especially one with such high BTUs) before you have cabinets coming down to the counter. Additionally, it looks a bit strange to not have the range centered on that wall and to have such a large open space at the top left.

Clearances are tight between the island and the fridge. And, that overhang you show will require some serious support, not just corbels underneath. YOu'll need to do some type of table stretchers and legs if you use that much overhang. Open shelving looks good, but it's a huge dust catcher and it's really more practical to have drawer space unless the shelving is readily adjustible and you take it out to clean regularly. Otherwise, the drawers that don't change height will provide just as much space, and they will pull out to bring the contents to you. Your drink fridge doesn't seem to be close to the family room or to an outside doorway, and those are the two primary routes to get a drink.

I think your pet dish area is great! I might see if you can add a pet food storage area close to the feeding area. Pull out bins work great for bulk storage. I'd put the pull out trash on the right side of the island so it could be easier accessed from the prep zone as well as the cleanup zone when you're scraping dishes.
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Buehl
16 years ago
I really like it!! I do agree w/RHome about the overhang and I was also going to suggest a narrower aisle b/w the range & island for a little more aisle space on the seat side of the island!

For the TV, will it be on a platform that pulls out and swivels? I think that would make it much more useful since it is off to the side. We considered putting a TV over our refrigerator but decided against it b/c we thought it would be too high to view comfortably and the size that would fit might be too small to see from across the kitchen...but, I think you have more room since you have 9' ceilings (we only have 8'). Don't forget to run power & cable lines up there!

Is it possible to either move the range & cabinets about 6" to the left or reduce two of the cabinets to 24"? When I look at the elevation drawings, the Laundry Room door looks very crowded by the wall cabinets on the range side. If you give it about 6" more "breathing room" I think it would look better... But, that's just my opinion.

One question, what kind of pets do you have? If cat(s) that area is probably big enough, but if dog(s), is there enough room in that alcove? BTW...I like the alcove. I wish we could have done something like that for our 2 dogs!

Good luck & Happy Thanksgiving!
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ncamy
Original Author
16 years ago
I, too, had worried about the cabinets coming all the way down to the counter being so close. The BlueStar installation guide says that adjoining walls or cabinets need to be 6 inches from the stove. I think that can be arranged. Question about the location of the range: At present it is centered with the island and the opening. Wouldn't it look strange if it was off center? The area to the left of the range was purposely left "blank" so that we could display art and maybe eventually a flat screen TV. For now we are going to use the TV we have and just leave it above the refrigerator. There will be pocket doors on that cabinet. It does seem a little high but it's mostly just for listening rather than watching. The refrigerator will be a standard size one, not super tall like a built-in fridge.

Regarding the pet station, we have a cat and a westie (under 18 lbs) and plan to use the alcove for the filtered water station. Their food we don't leave out (because they eat each other's food if we do.) But the water thing is kind of bulky and I wanted it out of the way. As far as the drink fridge. It's mostly an overflow drink storage for beer and can drinks, just a second fridge. We will also have a bar with a beverage center next to the family room. Right now I have the island 4 feet from the range. If we make it only 3 feet will there be enough room for both of us to maneuver around there? I think I'd rather "thin" out the island. It doesn't have to be that fat. Originally I had thought that I might build some sort of storage under the overhang and actually use that space rather than just leave it propped up in an empty space. We'll definitely do that if we use a local cabinet builder, but if we do semi-custom I don't know what they might have that will do the job.

Right now we have 52 inches of clearance on both the dishwasher and refrigerator side of the island. That seems like that is enough to me especially since we don't have a big family that will constantly be running through. Would you sacrifice island space for more clearance?

Thanks so much for the ideas so far. Moving the trash pull out sounds like a viable option. DH definitely wants the open shelves for pot storage. I know it will be a mess most of the times and will probably get beat all to hell with him banging pots around, but in this case function wins out against form.
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bmorepanic
16 years ago
The island is a three seater. If you change the arc so it doesn't protrude quite so far and drag those columns back closer to the walls, it'll be ok.

The only time the stools would matter is if they were ginormous :)

You might take a breath and think about how you and dh operate at a range. I would have at least one calf a day because I wouldn't be able to sit something down temporarily at the side of the range and I would hit those cabinets with pot handles. Adding salt to the (by that time) veal would be those lift-up doors. To me, they just to guarantee that the little bit of counter to the sides of the range would be totally useless because whatever was resting there would need to be moved.

Everybody is different and it could work for you. If you think about changing it tho, a mitigation is to move the two tall units to the counter to the edges, make the base cabinets larger, center the range and fill the entire space with a craftsman type mantle made of wood trim with plaster over. Think of the craftsman fireplaces where the mantle is extended and becomes a plate shelf. The hood would be part of the mantle, but not the entire width. You could fill-in behind the range with a nice craftsman tile.

The other thing you asked about is the spacing between prep and range. This is really personal. People get cardboard boxes and site them according to the plan and walk thru making meals to make more knowledgeable guesses for spacing issues like these..

We have 5 feet and really like it. I'm tall and make big gestures and am very aware of others. I like the extra space because I don't have to worry about turning around with a hot pot and bumping into dh.

Rhome has 3 and likes that and frequently has multiple cooks... altho, they're mostly still short, but definitely growing... We're both right that the spacing is right.

As a side thought because of counter cabinets, you aren't going to be able to "store" all the cut stuff for a stir fry (as an example) beside the range, you'll need to pivot and reach to get everything.
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rhome410
16 years ago
OK...I have to have you know that though few of us will probably ever be referred to as 'tall,' 3 of my kids are to their adult height, and the next 2 are closing in. So not many are that 'short' any more...especially those cooking over 16K BTU gas flame and wielding knives for prep. ;-)

As a matter of fact, I just looked up and saw this scene...my 2 physically grown older daughters working at the stove together. Just to help you see how 3 ft aisle looks in use:

{{!gwi}}
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User
16 years ago
The 15" clear counter space from front to back beside a range is needed in case you need to quickly set off a hot pot, or lay down a ladle, or do a quick chop of garlic to add to a saute pan. If you DO leave the design as is, please fireproof the cabinet sides. Yes, Bluestar says 6" of clearance, but that's to a fireproof surface like stainless or ceramic tile.
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rhome410
16 years ago
Forgot to say, I couldn't have those so near the cooktop either. (I always concentrate on the plan rather than elevations, so miss details like that in the first run-through.) It drives me crazy if there isn't room for pot handles and for reaching in from the side of the stove to the pots on the back burners without being too close to flames. I err on the side of extra room than possible crowding. They look very cool, but looks fade quickly when it's something that aggravates you. The only way I'd consider them in that location is if they were very shallow.
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ncamy
Original Author
16 years ago
OK we don't have to have the garage cabinets to either side of the range. I just really wanted to be able to shut off the cooking things that DH usually leaves out beside of the stove like salts and oils, etc. The idea here was that while he was cooking the doors would be lifted up and pushed back out of the way then could be closed up when cooking's done. I do like the idea of "fireproofing" the sides of the cabinets with tile or something. As far as depth I think those cabinets were only going to be 12 inches. Wouldn't that be considered shallow? All other upper cabinets I've ever had were either 15 or 18 inches deep.
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bmorepanic
16 years ago
Decorative containers and adding a niche or ledge? Or make the top drawer slightly deeper so it fits his oil bottles and stuff.

Also, the last cabinet under the counter by the ref, if you did it as two drawers? Might it be enough for pet food bins?

---
This holiday made me realize that I'm the tallest woman out of my sisters, nieces, and sisters in law. Thanks rhome.

If only I was willowy as well...
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rhome410
16 years ago
Always glad if I can help you out, Bmore. :-D
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alku05
16 years ago
We also have 5' between the prep island and our rangetop, and would not want any less. It is very much a personal preference and you should do a mock-up as Bmore suggested so you can find the optimal distance for you.

I really like your overall layout. Besides the previously mentioned details, I think you should reconsider your trash pullout location- it is too far from the sink for dish scraping. Simply swapping it with the drawers on the other end of the island would correct that.
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claybabe
16 years ago
One more vote for clearing the counter next to the range. There are a lot of gorgeous options in the FKB for oils, tall stuff and creative storage next to the range, and I would encourage you to think about doing something different. I know this first hand because of a design error compounded by a construction error in my cabs. Here's the photo:

The bottom front of the side cabs was to be 17-18" from the counter top, but is only 10". When it was placed at the proper height I couldn't see in the bottom drawers (supposed to be only 3-4") and the lower shelf was too high to easily reach (I'm short) my most used stuff. But the worst end result is that the cutting surface is compromised. (The cabs were also supposed to be 6" taller, for more storage and taller lites.)

I'm still contemplating the best fix for my situation, but I can tell you that you will be happier, no matter how you and DH cook, with more space next to the range. Check out Gibby's kitchen for one type of range/cooktop framing.

Here is a link that might be useful: FKB
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